EVIDENCE of being deaf with Hearing Aid device

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Audiofuzzy said:
I am deaf functioning as HoH and I don't unserstand ASL grammar so maybe now I should make a major point out of it, just for balance, huh?
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If you really want to... :roll:

Audiofuzzy said:
As for: " you could end up with someone who can sign perfect ASL and writes with perfect English?" - depends what you mean.
Signing in hearing English, or prefect ASL like "me bathroom" plus perfect hearing English?
because as far as signing in hearing English goes, Sweetmind thinks it's not neccessary.
I might agree.
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I meant just what I wrote. I did NOT refer to signing in perfect English. You do NOT need to sign in perfect English to write in perfect English. What I am trying to point out here is that the sign language and written language the kid learns do NOT need to match in grammar. The child could become BILINGUAL. ASL to me is just another language, meaning that in my mind, I understand that ASL is different from English and Spanish (I don't even think in English when I sign ASL). Since ASL doesn't correspond with English, why not teach the kids that ASL and written English are different languages with different rules?

As a side note, it is easiest for hearing people to learn ASL after learning another oral language. Because I was bilingual (English and Spanish) before I learned ASL, I had a very open mind to its grammar differences. Too many people are still monolingual at heart when they learn to sign--and that's why they complain about ASL's grammar differences. They haven't truly opened up to learning it as another language. It REALLY helped to have two languages first--that way, I was already used to grammars other than English.

Just something to think about ;)
 
gnulinuxman said:
I've met many audiologists and doctors who have said the CI is the cure for deafness and that it makes deaf babies normal. My fiancee's parents say that too, and they want her to get one, but they can't make her only because the law won't let her parents decide because she is not a minor.
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Straw man. I googled "cure + cochlear implant" and struggled to find anything that claimed it was a cure for deafness. There were far more references pointing out that it was not a cure.

None of us here believe that it's a cure, so why are we arguing about it? It is certainly not a mainstream claim and by making such claims a professional would put him/herself in a position of being sued for misleading information.

If there are any people who are claiming that it's a cure for deafness and that it makes deaf babies "normal" I would agree with you that such people need to be corrected and challenged. I think the "normal" claim (which has been used for hearing aids as well) is far more common but most people quickly accept the criticism when it's pointed out to them.
 
http://www.iamyourchild.org/early.html

At birth, a baby's brain has about 100 billion nerve cells.
But the cells have not yet formed the critical connections that determine an individual's emotional, social, and intellectual make-up. Most of this "wiring" develops between the ages of 0 to 3.

By age 3, a child's brain has twice as many synapses - or connections - as an adult's. This suggests that infants and toddlers are biologically primed for learning, as synapses are a fundamental basis of learning. When a connection is used repeatedly in the early years, it becomes permanent. But a connection that is used rarely, or not at all, is unlikely to survive.

For example, studies show that a child who is rarely spoken to or read to in the early years may have difficulty mastering language skills later in life. Similarly, a child who is rarely played with may have difficulty with social adjustment as she grows.

Scientists have found that your relationship with your child affects his brain in many ways. By providing warm, responsive care, you strengthen the biological systems that help him handle his emotions. Research also shows that a strong, secure connection with your child helps him withstand the ordinary stresses of daily life -not just today, but in the future. A strong bond doesn't just reassure him, it actually affects the biological systems that adapt to stress.
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So that's why - when the choice is to have children grow up with speech - it's important that is happens ASAP. A lot of learning-possibilities is lost when one waits until the child is old enough to decide for itself.

An excellent example.
 
Cloggy said:
So that's why - when the choice is to have children grow up with speech - it's important that is happens ASAP. A lot of learning-possibilities is lost when one waits until the child is old enough to decide for itself.

An excellent example.
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the article in full can be found at: http://www.baby-parenting.com/baby/child.html
since the link provided by SM "can't be found"
 
gnulinuxman said:
...

Politics: Deaf people have been fighting for their rights for CENTURIES. Deaf Culturalists felt very intimidated when the CI appeared as the "magic cure for deafness". Most don't view themselves as being in need of a cure, and I don't view deaf people as being in need of a cure either. They were genuinely scared that their rights would be denied because people would then say "You chose not to be hearing, so you don't deserve rights."

...
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Er...this seems like a rehash of the threat of HAs when they became popular back in the 60's. So, how is it any different now with CIs? Well having experienced both, I can see the potential that CIs can provide and that upside looks very promising in the long run. Still, this is just a sideshow in what is to come.

A question come to my mind...what about the ability to repair the cochlear hairs themselves? They are already looking at that possibility and it wouldn't surprise me they pull that off. Compared to CIs, that possibility will be the real test for the deaf culture. Drum roll......the battle is just beginning...

The deaf culture will just have to decide what they want and stop worrying about progress (you can fight all you want but the world is moving on and it could care less if you want to stay deaf). The real issue is not HAs, CIs, or even repairing cochlear hairs (whenever that day comes...if it does come) but accept that people given a chance will choose to try to hear. Somebody pointed out that the deaf culture will have to learn to adapt or die. It is as simple as that.
 
Hi VP,
Good of you to get in here. A new voice is allways good to "hear".
vp said:
.............
Cloggy, that is true. But (there is always a but) what if that is a choice? The deaf individual's choice or a parent's choice? I agree that children should be offered all the tools possible, and why not a CI? I understand that you had your daughter implanted because you wanted to give her a choice...and I think that any parent's decision should be at least respected no matter what our beliefs are. And I also think it is easy to say when you are not in the position of a parent who has a deaf child. I respect the parents who decides that a CI is best for their child but I also respect the parents who decide that ASL is best for their child or the parents who think both are the best for their child.......
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I can respect the choice of only learning ASL, but that decision also means that you make a choice to restrict communication.
I re-viewed "Sound & Fury" and there a choice is made to ONLY use ASL. This means moving to a community where there's a high percentage of people speaking ASL, and that's fine. But it also limits choice and people should be aware of this as well.
When growing up in deaf comunity, deaf parents, deaf family in a town with a high percentage deaf, then I can imagine ASL is the first language but the problem then is that is is very difficult to learn additional languages to communicate with people outside the comfotable community.
A "shocking" scene was where the mother of the twins explained that she needed a lot of speech therapy because she spoke like a deaf person. (Being hearing) because her parents were her rolemodels. And she grew up between other deaf people that spoke misformed.
So, holding on to ASL is great but one has to look beyond one's own world.

We did that for by learning to sign and having our daughter learning to sign the last 3 years. So we have a road open for her to a deaf world if she chooses that. But we are also taking her to the highway of hearing where she has all the tools to learn about ounds, music and different languages.
 
Well the gist of the arguement being debated, is because Sweetmind said "you audists think CI's is a cure."

Its been repeatedly said by those here who have CI's and have children with CI's that it isn't. When that was pointed out, gnulinuxman said that its CI professionals who say that. But yet I've never seen an article or heard a CI professional say that.

You can't keep grasping at straws. She said "us audists".... we replied, and proved her wrong.
 
neecy said:
Well the gist of the arguement being debated, is because Sweetmind said "you audists think CI's is a cure."

Its been repeatedly said by those here who have CI's and have children with CI's that it isn't. When that was pointed out, gnulinuxman said that its CI professionals who say that. But yet I've never seen an article or heard a CI professional say that.

You can't keep grasping at straws. She said "us audists".... we replied, and proved her wrong.
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With Sweetmind I'm still waiting for a dialog instead of reading monologs!
 
gnulinuxman said:
I've met many audiologists and doctors who have said the CI is the cure for deafness and that it makes deaf babies normal. ....
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Hmm..I haven't met ONE audiologist or doctors who stated that CI is a cure nor have heard anyone say such a thing but makes me wonder IF anything you said above could be true or not...


I couldn't even find ONE link provide by audiologists or doctors stated that either.. :dunno:
 
R2D2 said:
None of us here believe that it's a cure, so why are we arguing about it?
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Exactly, that what I'm wondering too... :dunno:
 
neecy said:
Acutally - if the last 5 years of reading her posts are of any indcation - Sweetmind thinks there are NO positive results of CI's and everything is negative. I've never once heard her say a single solitary positive thing about CI's. Whenever somebody makes a point to her to show where she's made a mistake, she finds a reason to disregard them (they're latened deaf, they're hearing, they're hard of hearing, they were mainstreamed instead of going to a deaf school, they use SEE instead of ASL...the list is endless.)

Perhaps its because we hold the hope (however slim) that one day she will really TRY to understand what's being said to her instead of dismissing it.
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Neecy this is simply not true. Sweetmind and I are friends. Have you ever stopped to listen to what she has to say? Have you ever had a personal one on one conversation with the lady?

Sorry, usually I stay out of these types of topics. But in this case I do need to defend Sweetmind. She is not totally against Ci's she is very accepting of the fact that I am considering getting one, and is in fact very supportive of my decision.

She is standing up for children being implanted. She does not care if an adult decides to implant themselves. I tend to agree with this attitude. I dont believe a child should be implanted. But I do realize no matter what I say can deter a parent that wants to do so.

She is saying you are latened deaf like me and cannot compare ourselves to someone who was born deaf or became deaf at an early age. And she is right about that. We do not know what those kids go through never hearing anything like we have.

She is also saying what does Cloggy truly know about being deaf when he or she themselves is actually hearing?

I cant say I know what it is like to be blonde, as I have myself never been a blonde. But my daughter was born a blonde, does that suddenly make me an expert on being blonde? No, it just means my daughter was one at birth. So, therefore Cloggy cannot truly speak from a deaf perspective.

Try to read her posts instead of making judgements. And she is right about some people with the audist attitudes. I read alot of posts in here and chose not to post my opinions, cause I dont want them attacked or to be told that i am wrong.

I see time and time again how great CI's are from almost always the same people. I never once see from these same people any negativity about Ci's, it does feel like we are being *pushed* into a CI that they are the most wonderful thing to ever happen.

Which is why I am carefully choosing whom I speak to about my decision to get a CI. I want to also know any negative effects that a CI may or may not have. I am sure there have been people with CI's to get headaches. Are they from the CI? who knows? But it may be possible.

I am looking to gather both good and negative things about a CI and the surgery itself before I decide.

You see the thing is, I should be on the CI side, because I know what it is to hear. But, it has been 8 full months since I last heard anything and still havent decided YES or NO to a CI.

I loved to be able to hear things. So, tell me if it is taking me this long to decide how can a parent decide so quickly that a CI is a way to go?

Sometimes, and only sometimes I wonder. Are these parents truly wanting a CI because it is best for the child? Or because it is better for the parent?

Here is something to think about. If I was a true deaf person and born deaf since birth, and I then gave birth to a hearing child, and then got a doctor to agree to make that same hearing child, deaf. You would be crying foul too.

But hey it would be better for that child to be deaf, because it will grow up with deaf parents and in a deaf world!

Dont mean to make anyone mad, but this is the way I see it. Now, however, if I heard that a parent said geez, I thought a full year before deciding, and when I did I explored whether if I was in fact doing it for the child or for myself, then I would be like, then you made the right choice.

Try to understand both sides here. Many of these people are just worried that these parents of deaf children are getting Ci's for their kids for themselves and not for the kids.

I do not make that assumption. Simply, because I realize in the end it is not up to me but to that particular parent. All I can do is hope that the parents will still teach that child to sign and help that child still accept that they are in fact deaf. And keep the child in touch with the deaf community.

But, if the parents chose not to do so. I know there is nothing I can say or do that will change their minds.

So please, just try to understand each other and where everyone is coming from and the concerns they may have.


Bear
 
Boult said:
extremely biased site. with some misinformation and scare tactics.

and http://www.cochlearwar.com/forum/


If many Pro-CI users sent lot of emails and none shows up then that's because above. And is the editor neutral? :dunno:
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I provided the link in response to a request about the Deaf Culture side of it.
 
Bear said:
Neecy this is simply not true. Sweetmind and I are friends. Have you ever stopped to listen to what she has to say? Have you ever had a personal one on one conversation with the lady?

Sorry, usually I stay out of these types of topics. But in this case I do need to defend Sweetmind. She is not totally against Ci's she is very accepting of the fact that I am considering getting one, and is in fact very supportive of my decision.

She is standing up for children being implanted. She does not care if an adult decides to implant themselves. I tend to agree with this attitude. I dont believe a child should be implanted. But I do realize no matter what I say can deter a parent that wants to do so.
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Bear, you are right. Sweetmind does have valid points. I am a friend of hers too and have had one-on-one conversations with her too. She's not deafist either (if she was, Bear and I probably would NOT be her friends at all). www.cochlearwar.com also has this opinion, but hardly anybody here seems to care that it does.

Bear said:
She is saying you are latened deaf like me and cannot compare ourselves to someone who was born deaf or became deaf at an early age. And she is right about that. We do not know what those kids go through never hearing anything like we have.
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Very true.

Bear said:
She is also saying what does Cloggy truly know about being deaf when he or she themselves is actually hearing?
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True again. I don't pretend to understand the deaf perspective either--I do speak as a hearing person who is very much aware of the beautiful Deaf Culture.

Bear said:
I cant say I know what it is like to be blonde, as I have myself never been a blonde. But my daughter was born a blonde, does that suddenly make me an expert on being blonde? No, it just means my daughter was one at birth. So, therefore Cloggy cannot truly speak from a deaf perspective.
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Good point.

Bear said:
Try to read her posts instead of making judgements. And she is right about some people with the audist attitudes. I read alot of posts in here and chose not to post my opinions, cause I dont want them attacked or to be told that i am wrong.

I see time and time again how great CI's are from almost always the same people. I never once see from these same people any negativity about Ci's, it does feel like we are being *pushed* into a CI that they are the most wonderful thing to ever happen.
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Thank you! Something I tried to point out several times but was flamed for doing so.

Bear said:
Which is why I am carefully choosing whom I speak to about my decision to get a CI. I want to also know any negative effects that a CI may or may not have. I am sure there have been people with CI's to get headaches. Are they from the CI? who knows? But it may be possible.

I am looking to gather both good and negative things about a CI and the surgery itself before I decide.
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Good luck with your decision.

Bear said:
You see the thing is, I should be on the CI side, because I know what it is to hear. But, it has been 8 full months since I last heard anything and still havent decided YES or NO to a CI.

I loved to be able to hear things. So, tell me if it is taking me this long to decide how can a parent decide so quickly that a CI is a way to go?
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You don't have to take one side or the other just because you used to be able to hear. ;)

Bear said:
Sometimes, and only sometimes I wonder. Are these parents truly wanting a CI because it is best for the child? Or because it is better for the parent?
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Without a doubt, this is my #1 concern with implanting children.

Bear said:
Here is something to think about. If I was a true deaf person and born deaf since birth, and I then gave birth to a hearing child, and then got a doctor to agree to make that same hearing child, deaf. You would be crying foul too.

But hey it would be better for that child to be deaf, because it will grow up with deaf parents and in a deaf world!
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VERY GOOD POINT. :thumb:

Bear said:
Dont mean to make anyone mad, but this is the way I see it. Now, however, if I heard that a parent said geez, I thought a full year before deciding, and when I did I explored whether if I was in fact doing it for the child or for myself, then I would be like, then you made the right choice.
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Agreed 100% here. Most people would be shocked if they found out that was my point all along.

Bear said:
Try to understand both sides here. Many of these people are just worried that these parents of deaf children are getting Ci's for their kids for themselves and not for the kids.
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Thank you for bringing this up.

Bear said:
I do not make that assumption. Simply, because I realize in the end it is not up to me but to that particular parent. All I can do is hope that the parents will still teach that child to sign and help that child still accept that they are in fact deaf. And keep the child in touch with the deaf community.
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Me too.

Bear said:
But, if the parents chose not to do so. I know there is nothing I can say or do that will change their minds.

So please, just try to understand each other and where everyone is coming from and the concerns they may have.
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:gpost:
 
The problem is... that there are so many unfounded accusations. Like.....
Bear said:
.......So, therefore Cloggy cannot truly speak from a deaf perspective.....
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....which he doesn't.

Bear said:
.........So, tell me if it is taking me this long to decide how can a parent decide so quickly that a CI is a way to go?
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because you allready learned how to speak. My daughter has the best possibilities now. (Have a look at Sweetminds link. Children learn best as early as possible..... You can afford to wait. If I wait, I reduce the possibilities for my daughter.
Bear said:
......Sometimes, and only sometimes I wonder. Are these parents truly wanting a CI because it is best for the child? Or because it is better for the parent?
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Excellent question. My personal answer... It's better for both in terms of communication and overall experience of the world. My daughter would have been great without sound. She will be great with sound.....
Bear said:
.....
Here is something to think about. If I was a true deaf person and born deaf since birth, and I then gave birth to a hearing child, and then got a doctor to agree to make that same hearing child, deaf. You would be crying foul too.....
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..... Ah, the argument to remove someones.... Should we spend time on this?....
Bear said:
.....
.....
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But I appreciate your input. It's allways good to get some feedback regarding Sweetmind. It's good to see you and linusguy to help explain why Sweetmind is acting the way she does. But still, like I said elsewhere, I (and with me many others) am still looking for a dialog with her instead of her monologs.

I have no deaf perspective, she has no hearing perspective so we both can't say anything about it? Sure. She grew up deaf, I have a deaf child so we both can say something about that? Where are the bounderies?
It's nonsense. She can correct me any time when I'm wrong. She doesn't do that because she knows I'm talking from experience. She decided to ignore the information I (and many others) give and just repeats the same nonsense, accusation or insult..... like I said, it's a monolog.

But please tell her that my child can hear with CI. She sings songs, she say's "hi" to people. CI works for her. SO tell Sweetmind that it does work. Perhaps not allways, but in a lot of cases it does.
And these children that grow up hearing are happy. Just as happy as children growing up deaf. They grow up with a hearing identity. Deaf culture never lost anyone because she was never a member.

Of all the decisions I have made in my life, this was one of the best. Seeing the joy in my daughters face when she discovers a new sound..... wonderful.
 
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extremely biased site. with some misinformation and scare tactics.
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How can it be extremely biased site? I guess he cannot read because of too busy with oral method rules..

This is real fair to tell Pro and Con about CI. If you mind Stop being so prejudice against and lies about Mr. Matthew Moore after all you were no longer to work with him. Thats when you are into a crap theory that tried to destroy him as Deaf Leader and Deaf person. That' is the whole fact here.

Mr. Moore work with Deaf and (not **for**) Hearing to bring up the fact and truth about being deafness itself. Just exactly what you and your follower of audist attitude people who did this to me for 8 years.

Truth comes out now. I feel betrayed all those years that people need to see the truth how d/Deaf children feels inside their painful heartaches that has been destroyed on our True soul of being deaf.





Implantees’ View
for first-person accounts of living with a cochlear implant.

Deaf View
for those who advocate sign-language-based communication and consider themselves part of the Deaf Community.

Professional View
for those in the medical/clinical field, and those who support implants for deaf people, speech, speechreading, and an oral approach.

Parents’ View
for parents of deaf children, including those who have implants and those who use a primarily sign-language-based mode for everyday communication (or both).
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Thank you! ;)
Sweetmind
 
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CI won't take away from my deaf children's idenity -- it will only add to it.

I totally agree with Cloggy, the earlier, the better for a child to be implanted because you cannot be indecisive about CI. They will still be in the learning curve and it'll only get easier for them when they grow older.
 
Cloggy said:
The problem is... that there are so many unfounded accusations. Like.........which he doesn't.

because you allready learned how to speak. My daughter has the best possibilities now. (Have a look at Sweetminds link. Children learn best as early as possible..... You can afford to wait. If I wait, I reduce the possibilities for my daughter.Excellent question. My personal answer... It's better for both in terms of communication and overall experience of the world. My daughter would have been great without sound. She will be great with sound.......... Ah, the argument to remove someones.... Should we spend time on this?....
But I appreciate your input. It's allways good to get some feedback regarding Sweetmind. It's good to see you and linusguy to help explain why Sweetmind is acting the way she does. But still, like I said elsewhere, I (and with me many others) am still looking for a dialog with her instead of her monologs.

I have no deaf perspective, she has no hearing perspective so we both can't say anything about it? Sure. She grew up deaf, I have a deaf child so we both can say something about that? Where are the bounderies?
It's nonsense. She can correct me any time when I'm wrong. She doesn't do that because she knows I'm talking from experience. She decided to ignore the information I (and many others) give and just repeats the same nonsense, accusation or insult..... like I said, it's a monolog.

But please tell her that my child can hear with CI. She sings songs, she say's "hi" to people. CI works for her. SO tell Sweetmind that it does work. Perhaps not allways, but in a lot of cases it does.
And these children that grow up hearing are happy. Just as happy as children growing up deaf. They grow up with a hearing identity. Deaf culture never lost anyone because she was never a member.

Of all the decisions I have made in my life, this was one of the best. Seeing the joy in my daughters face when she discovers a new sound..... wonderful.
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''

CLoggy, hon, I was in no way trying to *support* Sweetmind's views. I am not here to be a *Sweetmind supporter* and have in fact been a member of AD longer than Sweetmind.

However, if I was a little sensitive to your posting and you in fact did not intend for your posting to insinuate that to that affect then I in fact apologize.

I just took offense to Neecy saying that she was against all Ci uses. When in fact she isn't.

Your right she does have no hearing perspective. All I was pointing out that she is saying you are hearing so to HER you cannot say from a deaf point of view.


Ahh I do apologize that you took my post as an accusation. I was not accusing anyone. I said parents, I did not say who I was referring to. I didnt mention your name.


Cloggy, in response to my posting about getting a Ci so quickly. In MY OPINION only and from no one else's. No where in any of my postings will you ever see me saying that any one person is wrong about something. I have my opinions and you have yours. It is my belief to respect YOUR opinion and mind too.

If you were the CI user I would go to you for the positive attitude about a CI and ask how it affected your life. But, being as it is your daughter who wears the CI to me you are just a *bystander* seeing how it affects her.

This is where I am being misunderstood I believe. Maybe Im wrong and please correct me if I am. I do believe that CI use can be good. Even considering one for myself.

But, in all your posts on your daughter and her CI. That I HAVE read so far, there may be some of your posts I have missed and if I have please direct me to it. BUT SO FAR I havent seen one negative side to any of your CI postings? Has she had any problems at all with it? Have you talked to other CI users who had problems with theirs?

I, in fact never questioned your reasons for implanting your daughter. But, to ME and ME only the old arguement about being deaf and turning a hearing child into a deaf child is valid.

Because SOME parents go for a CI with just that idea in mind, to make a deaf child into a HEARING CHILD.

I am in no way saying that this is what you or someone else on here who may have an implanted child tried to do. But I have seen and talked to some hearing parents with deaf children say that.

Very good answer to my question. I respect that answer! I also respect your decision to implant your daughter. I may not agree with it, but I respect it.


IF I may offer an opinion here, and hopefully you dont take this the wrong way. Maybe, now just maybe, but this is my opinion only from reading alot of your postings here.

I would tend to listen to your arguement more so if you also offered some downsides to a CI. From reading your posts, I see only POSITIVE POSITIVE POSITIVE. Yes, having a positive attitude is a good thing. However, when trying to educate someone, it usually helps to also show some negatives.

Maybe not the right example for this situation but this is what comes to mind for me. When I go to the doctor and talk to him, he will ofc tell me the positive side to it, but we almost always ask them what are the side effects if any? What about pain after the surgery? Is there a second opinion I can get? What can I expect to accomplish from this course of treatment?

We also want to know the downsides in any situation. So far, I see Positive, Positive, which is good. But, to me it feels like CI's are the most wonderful things you should get one too. And we all know it wont work for everyone.

So, keeping that in mind maybe our arguements from both sides would work better if we offered a little of both.

Yes, some of my opinions are in fact very uneducated. But, I feel I do have some valid concerns, which I dont post in full here, because instead of educating me, I would just get attacked.

So, try to keep that in mind, next time when you are trying to educate someone.

And Cloggy, this post isnt entirely directed towards you.

I am sure your daughter is doing wonderful with her CI, and that you are very proud of your decision to give her the opportunity to hear sounds with the CI. That is great, I am glad it all worked out for her.

I respect you were her parent and it was your decision to make and not mine. Please, try to remember when everybody posts, it is in fact an opinion only.

Good Luck, Cloggy.


Bear
 
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