Do we have a challenge ahead of us to avoid becoming Hearing?

[Beach girl]

BG - I thought you wanted everyone to stop ranting and get back to the topic at hand. so, let's all do that, shall we?

If that's a motion, I second it!

 

[jillio]

My advice to you would be to get a dictionary, but I bet you won't do that, either.

Whether you like it or not, I'm a member in good standing of AD and have the right to say what I think. What I see is a bunch of people being way more personally and publicly insulting to koko than he is to any individual here. If you don't like his ideas, then argue on the basis of ideas, not this petty name-calling.

Who cares if some people here have known him since college days? You're talking about holding a grudge against someone for years and years??? Sheesh...

How would you like it if someone dredged up YOUR college days and complained about something you did or said back then?



You're good at telling people to get back on topic once you have exhausted a side-bar argument. Maybe it's time to take that advice here, too.

I don't recall asking for your advice, nor do I recall anyone else here asking for your advice. You simply assume that it is wanted and appreciated, and your assumption is completely incorrect.

Go ahead and jump to koko's defense if it makes you feel good. But until you understand and know others' reasons for feeling the way they do, and until you understand some of the history within the deaf community, you are jumping into something with blinders on.

 

[jillio]

BG - I thought you wanted everyone to stop ranting and get back to the topic at hand. so, let's all do that, shall we?

Not a problem for me.

So are the Deaf in danger of being totally assimilated into hearing culture?

 

[shel90]

My advice to you would be to get a dictionary, but I bet you won't do that, either.

Whether you like it or not, I'm a member in good standing of AD and have the right to say what I think. What I see is a bunch of people being way more personally and publicly insulting to koko than he is to any individual here. If you don't like his ideas, then argue on the basis of ideas, not this petty name-calling.

Who cares if some people here have known him since college days? You're talking about holding a grudge against someone for years and years??? Sheesh...

How would you like it if someone dredged up YOUR college days and complained about something you did or said back then?

You're good at telling people to get back on topic once you have exhausted a side-bar argument. Maybe it's time to take that advice here, too.

You really have no idea, do you? He was very negative to many of us who value Deaf culture. I had my own share of him belittling some of my posts although it was more of a passive aggressive way.

 

[KristinaB]

Not a problem for me.

So are the Deaf in danger of being totally assimilated into hearing culture?

The way I see it, the deaf have already been at the mercy of the hearing culture and want to have the hearing culture learn more about the deaf culture.

**See, I'm trying to stay on track here **

 

[Grummer]

The way I see it, the deaf have already been at the mercy of the hearing culture and want to have the hearing culture learn more about the deaf culture.

**See, I'm trying to stay on track here **

YAY!!!
Yes indeed BACK ON TRACK, a is waiting for you lol

this is EXACTLY what we should be discussing, well there are other things but this is definitely right in the nexus of schemes of thing in which is happening to so many of us d/Deaf people. Sometimes i feel Deaf try imitate hearing people's coolness, like fashion but in a slightly more too bizzare obvious way , i mean id dare say, more tattoos, or more hair dyes, or more queerish dressing in mistakening assumption of more 'hippie-cool' or gangster pulp fiction cool. in that line, its the hearing culture of Music that 'definites' cool, that is worrying me, it distorts, weaken the ideas of 'Deaf Cool'
now how shall we go about it?

just another wasted 2c posting lol (getting to like saying that)

 

[jillio]

The way I see it, the deaf have already been at the mercy of the hearing culture and want to have the hearing culture learn more about the deaf culture.

**See, I'm trying to stay on track here **

Yay, for KristinaB! And I think you are completely right. The Deaf have been oppressed for centuries by the hearing mind set, and they are now speaking out on their own behalf. Some seem to find that intimidating, it would seem.

 

[Grummer]

like how can we say, its 'movie-cool' not 'music-cool' does hearing culture sneer at movie fans in some ways? i wonder?!...

 

[jillio]

YAY!!!
Yes indeed BACK ON TRACK, a is waiting for you lol

this is EXACTLY what we should be discussing, well there are other things but this is definitely right in the nexus of schemes of thing in which is happening to so many of us d/Deaf people. Sometimes i feel Deaf try imitate hearing people's coolness, like fashion but in a slightly more too bizzare obvious way , i mean id dare say, more tattoos, or more hair dyes, or more queerish dressing in mistakening assumption of more 'hippie-cool' or gangster pulp fiction cool. in that line, its the hearing culture of Music that 'definites' cool, that is worrying me, it distorts, weaken the ideas of 'Deaf Cool'
now how shall we go about it?

just another wasted 2c posting lol (getting to like saying that)

We need, I believe, to expose more deaf children to cool Deaf adults, in order that they have a mentor to look up to. Most deaf kids are unindated with images of hearing people, they learn the history of hearing people with no mention of historical deaf figures they could admire, in short, they use hearing culture to define cool because that is what they are exposed to and because, particularly, if they are victims of the mainstream, what they are trying to fit into. More exposure to the Deaf, more teaching of Deaf history in the way the deaf schools teach Deaf history, more exposure to the positives of deafness, will allow these kids to develop an identity that is not dependent upon fitting into, or mimicing, hearing cultural values. They will be able to form a greater degree of self esteem based on who they are, instead of trying to be someone else.

 

[kokonut]

If that's a motion, I second it!

Yay! Finally. I agree. Let's stop this nonsense and get back on track.

 

[DeafCaroline]

YAY!!!
Yes indeed BACK ON TRACK, a is waiting for you lol

this is EXACTLY what we should be discussing, well there are other things but this is definitely right in the nexus of schemes of thing in which is happening to so many of us d/Deaf people. Sometimes i feel Deaf try imitate hearing people's coolness, like fashion but in a slightly more too bizzare obvious way , i mean id dare say, more tattoos, or more hair dyes, or more queerish dressing in mistakening assumption of more 'hippie-cool' or gangster pulp fiction cool. in that line, its the hearing culture of Music that 'definites' cool, that is worrying me, it distorts, weaken the ideas of 'Deaf Cool'
now how shall we go about it?

just another wasted 2c posting lol (getting to like saying that)

Ok, first, what's "Deaf Cool"? I don't know what that means exactly.

Hmmm..about the clothes, honestly I would venture to say that's a culture thing. Like I would see the Japanese wearing sporting Western fashion but with their own cultural twist. And man, can they really get innovative.

I'm assuming some Deafs are also doing their own spin. It's like saying "if I'm going to be different, then I am going to be really different." So it's pushing the envelope. Pushing boundaries, challenging perceptions. It's a bit of the rebellious spirit too. They're young. Exploring their identity, evolving as they grow.

I went through some pretty extreme styles myself, it was my way of exerting control over some aspect of my life at that time. I had total say and control in what I wore and I made full use of that privilege.

 

[GrendelQ]

... If I am going to launch a campaign against the Oral only school in my town, I need to make sure I understand all the facts first so I am as informed as possible. So any assistance is GREATLY appreciated. ...

DC, why don't you start a new thread to talk about what you hope to achieve with this campaign and get at some of the arguments for and against and collect some research. I wouldn't want to derail this thread's focus on ... ahhh, whatever it has become

 

[jillio]

Ok, first, what's "Deaf Cool"? I don't know what that means exactly.

Hmmm..about the clothes, honestly I would venture to say that's a culture thing. Like I would see the Japanese wearing sporting Western fashion but with their own cultural twist. And man, can they really get innovative.

I'm assuming some Deafs are also doing their own spin. It's like saying "if I'm going to be different, then I am going to be really different." So it's pushing the envelope. Pushing boundaries, challenging perceptions. It's a bit of the rebellious spirit too. They're young. Exploring their identity, evolving as they grow.

I went through some pretty extreme styles myself, it was my way of exerting control over some aspect of my life at that time. I had total say and control in what I wore and I made full use of that privilege.

I agree. It is natural for teens to explore...as a matter of fact it is developmentally appropriate. And, in the process, they are given to extremes. But more than fashion, I am concerned with what they perceive a "cool" person to be. If all of the people they look up to as being "cool" are hearing, it is a good sign that they have not been exposed to Deaf culture, and have not studied historical deaf figures.

 

[jillio]

DC, why don't you start a new thread to talk about what you hope to achieve with this campaign and get at some of the arguments for and against and collect some research. I wouldn't want to derail this thread's focus on ... ahhh, whatever it has become

Actually, discussion of oral only is appropriate to this thread, as oral only is one of the manners in which deaf are assimilated into hearing culture.

 

[DeafCaroline]

Ok, how do you emulate the fashion of historical deaf figures? Deaf kids wear the same clothes as hearing people do and it's not because they want to copy "hearing" people but because they're teenagers, they like what they see and copy it, make it their own.

What should they be wearing that would make you say "oh, they're not copying the hearing at all" or "oh, that's Deaf Cool, I know that style."

Not trying to be dense but I'm not sure if Grummer is saying that they should be same as or less extreme than hearing. The fact they are more so is their statement.

Grummer, what did you mean by Deaf Cool and how did you envison that in how people express themselves in clothes and styles?

 

[jillio]

Ok, how do you emulate the fashion of historical deaf figures? Deaf kids wear the same clothes as hearing people do and it's not because they want to copy "hearing" people but because they're teenagers, they like what they see and copy it, make it their own.

What should they be wearing that would make you say "oh, they're not copying the hearing at all" or "oh, that's Deaf Cool, I know that style."

Not trying to be dense but I'm not sure if Grummer is saying that they should be same as or less extreme than hearing. The fact they are more so is their statement.

Grummer, what did you mean by Deaf Cool and how did you envison that in how people express themselves in clothes and styles?

That's why I said that I was referring not so much to fashion, but to other characteristics that are considered to be "cool".

Maybe a concept of fashionable Deaf "cool" would be to use hearing aid jewelry to make the HAs more visable, instead of trying to make them discreet.

 

[Grummer]

Ok, first, what's "Deaf Cool"? I don't know what that means exactly.

Hmmm..about the clothes, honestly I would venture to say that's a culture thing. Like I would see the Japanese wearing sporting Western fashion but with their own cultural twist. And man, can they really get innovative.

I'm assuming some Deafs are also doing their own spin. It's like saying "if I'm going to be different, then I am going to be really different." So it's pushing the envelope. Pushing boundaries, challenging perceptions. It's a bit of the rebellious spirit too. They're young. Exploring their identity, evolving as they grow.

I went through some pretty extreme styles myself, it was my way of exerting control over some aspect of my life at that time. I had total say and control in what I wore and I made full use of that privilege.

yeah something like on the right track,
yes we ought to explore what is "Deaf cool" ..why did i say that?

its like how do we genuinely makes Deaf culture cool, and to remove the 'failure' ghettoised culture aspect away from it, and at same time, to remove the 'fashion spend up which conveys the same kind of hearing culture's bent to brag about expensive clothes, or altenatively 'poor' self customised clothing which follows the hearing intellectual of 'punk' or 'goth' or politicalisation of punkness that i have always suspect many young d/Deaf dont really understand it, it makes me angry because they making a fool of themselves and at same time gives off false impressions of 'coolness' to hearing people, which, um...i cant say it in words yet, need to read more, but my time in reading is taken up in post-grad death materials so i find it hard to switch hats or better yet time management isnt my forte' . Hmmm but um, like seeking and receiving approvals from hearing culture via recoginition visually its in the 'hearing world' thus forgeting what about 'deaf world cool' but to me, its also the ghettoised 'cool' like rough people, I have noticed a lot of d/Deaf likes rough, like drinking horrible Bourbon and Coke instead of really good wines. To me i thnk partially of this is, the Bourbon and coke is Easy to see, and the wine is less understood (too many horrible shit out there too) and the art of getting the right wines isnt in grasp of many d/Deaf people because of its 'high English' use in its reviews/magazines and wine drinking 'cultures'...these things have ALWAYS been on my 'watching eyes' yet i havent done anything about it, (yet)... but yes this is a very rough Rough start to ask such a question, what is Deaf Cool, by that i also meant across the ages, not teenage or young adults or rich middle agers (wine drinkers)...i suppose one such might be tolerance and ability to talk about signs and keeping the peace and another might be making good conversations about romance, not sex (Deaf LOVES talking about sex good gawd, just yesterday the Deaf Pool club members on a 'away' at the hearing pub for a day's pool challenge, 80% of the stuff they talked about was sex and more sex lol, the hearing bystanders, pool players were like 'um'. and carry on talking about hearing stuff, which isnt going to be sex ofc...not that much you know??

in a way, also i sometimes wonder does this puts parents of to have their kids be submersed in Deaf culture?? i wonder..sorry to bash my own world, but hey got to be honest and we do need discuss these 'unsaid' things too ...

 

[DeafCaroline]

Ah. Well, another way of looking at it is that tattoos, piercings, extreme styles of clothing were traditionally considered fashion for outsiders. Those who don't fit into traditional molds. And they are usually not tame about it. So, I'm guessing, totally hypothesizing really, that the fact the Deaf people Grummer was referring to were "more so" might be their statement that they know they're different and not going to hide it. Know what I mean? Again, it's a young people thing.

When you mentioned historical figures I was thinking "props to Beethoven and Helen Keller, really, but I don't wanna copy their style."

 

[Grummer]

We need, I believe, to expose more deaf children to cool Deaf adults, in order that they have a mentor to look up to. Most deaf kids are unindated with images of hearing people, they learn the history of hearing people with no mention of historical deaf figures they could admire, in short, they use hearing culture to define cool because that is what they are exposed to and because, particularly, if they are victims of the mainstream, what they are trying to fit into. More exposure to the Deaf, more teaching of Deaf history in the way the deaf schools teach Deaf history, more exposure to the positives of deafness, will allow these kids to develop an identity that is not dependent upon fitting into, or mimicing, hearing cultural values. They will be able to form a greater degree of self esteem based on who they are, instead of trying to be someone else.

i know, and thats why in another thread i mentioned Deaf chemist, deaf scientist, deaf Real Deaf Geologist - Check
Real Deaf Chemist - Check
Real Deaf Rocket Scientist (And he heads a crew of engineers that builds rockets at SpaceX) - Check
Real Deaf Chef - Plenty of them,
in the Deaf Research Paper Topic, OP is marcyp06, one of the reason why i suggested that, is the REAL role models, not the PC-role models, i mean really REAL Deaf people with success, whom contributed to history, put further, shape up the history of Deaf people's success, (not just in the boring Education, disability politics Gally etc - too narrow and too colourless (whatever im saying)
soz im not prosing this post perfectly im brainstorm silmutaneously as i write this, (and same time i have a dreadful tinnitus so i cant focus well/half the reason staying home on the laptop)...

In summary of this mini-brainstorm post, I am saying; yeah i agree on that 100% that we should focus on the positives of deafness, will allow these kids to develop an identity that is not dependent upon fitting into, or mimicing, hearing cultural values.

We need to develop a new curriculum for Deaf students; young and old, 'Hearing culture and Deaf Culture'...in this way, we can push out the disabling mentality across the board...

 

[Grummer]

Ah. Well, another way of looking at it is that tattoos, piercings, extreme styles of clothing were traditionally considered fashion for outsiders. Those who don't fit into traditional molds. And they are usually not tame about it. So, I'm guessing, totally hypothesizing really, that the fact the Deaf people Grummer was referring to were "more so" might be their statement that they know they're different and not going to hide it. Know what I mean? Again, it's a young people thing.

yep!...

When you mentioned historical figures I was thinking "props to Beethoven and Helen Keller, really, but I don't wanna copy their style."

i don't either!
which is why i said how can we look and develop alternatives?