Do we have a challenge ahead of us to avoid becoming Hearing?

[GrendelQ]

Am I out of date if I say lipreading instead of speechreading? That's a new term to me.

Basically the same thing in the way we use it: lipreading is an old term that's changed to be more accurate and give a greater acknowledgment and respect to the skill required. Many here probably grew up with knowing what we now call speechreading as lipreading.

Lipreading is watching the lips to extract whatever speech information you can, speechreading is watching the lips, tongue, teeth, cheeks, eyes, facial expressions, gestures, body language and anything else that gives clues as to what the person is saying. Speechreading encompasses lipreading, plus much more, but I think anyone would know what you mean regardless of which term you use. I had previously used lipreading, too, but a Deaf person explained to me that the term can come across as a bit demeaning.

 

[DeafCaroline]

I can't really choose which is worse, spending years being really upset and angry that I couldn't pronounce "ch" and felt like such a stupid loser because it was so easy for everyone else. Now I can pronounce "ch" easily but still can't pronounce "z" properly - every time I say zoo, people think I'm saying Jew, that gets awkward!
then there's oral instruction in classrooms which is another huge problem - I can follow what people say if they are facing me, not walking around, turning around, standing in front of windows, looking down, etc. I remember i once asked a teacher in 5th grade if she would mind making sure I can see her lips more often and she said to me "who do you think you are? You think you are so special? I am not here to teach just you, I am here to teach the whole class. If you don't like it, go to Special Ed and stay there."

That stopped me from ever asking for help again in school.

So, your questions are very loaded and I really can't say one is worse than the other, I hated them both equally.

 

[GrendelQ]

I can't really choose which is worse, spending years being really upset and angry that I couldn't pronounce "ch" and felt like such a stupid loser because it was so easy for everyone else. Now I can pronounce "ch" easily but still can't pronounce "z" properly - every time I say zoo, people think I'm saying Jew, that gets awkward!
then there's oral instruction in classrooms which is another huge problem - I can follow what people say if they are facing me, not walking around, turning around, standing in front of windows, looking down, etc. I remember i once asked a teacher in 5th grade if she would mind making sure I can see her lips more often and she said to me "who do you think you are? You think you are so special? I am not here to teach just you, I am here to teach the whole class. If you don't like it, go to Special Ed and stay there."

That stopped me from ever asking for help again in school.

So, your questions are very loaded and I really can't say one is worse than the other, I hated them both equally.

DC, that's a great answer, thanks. That's just awful . I hear so many here discuss the evils of oralism in terms of general principle and history, but not so many specifics about what is is about being in an auditory-oral or auditory-verbal environment, like at one of the Clarke schools or CID or Moog, that they hated.

You mentioned that you got great benefits from your HAs as a kid, why did you or your parents choose an oral school rather than a mainstream environment? Or was your oral program a self-contained classroom within your local school.

 

[dogmom]

Caroline, I just read your story about that 5th grade teacher/Special Ed remark and I just wanted to give you a Sadly I imagine many have similiar stories. Teachers of young kids make such a huge difference with that age
I remember all too well my sense of confusion and isolation in the school years before high school and what it was like to ask for help - or to want to ask - and not have that need met.

 

[DeafCaroline]

Ok, initlally, I was first learning to speak and lipread in a hospital then my mother, having attended every session learned enough to teach me on her own. We had moved to the country so it wasn't practical to drive an hour to the city every day to continue the hospital sessions.
I was mainstreamed 100%. I went to a "normal" school and was given speech training for minimum 2 hours a day at home and that's not including the constant speech corrections by every member of my family all day long AND one hour a day in Special Ed for a unique kind of training which was music - considered very important in terms of teaching about intonation, rhythm, fluctuations of tone and inflections.

My oral-only upbringing was very intensive.

 

[DeafCaroline]

Caroline, I just read your story about that 5th grade teacher/Special Ed remark and I just wanted to give you a Sadly I imagine many have similiar stories. Teachers of young kids make such a huge difference with that age
I remember all too well my sense of confusion and isolation in the school years before high school and what it was like to ask for help - or to want to ask - and not have that need met.

Awww...thank you.

 

[DeafCaroline]

I do get benefits from my hearing aids but I don't hear consonants which makes up for a big portion of the spoken language! Thank god I don't live in Poland.

This was the 70s. I was one of the first kids to enter the oral-only program. it was considered very innovative and avant-garde back then.

 

[dogmom]

DC, sure!

 

[dogmom]

DC, I wonder, that program that was so innovative according to their standards, do you think the "newness" of it made it even more difficult for you, like maybe you were supposed to be some kind of example, "leading the way forward with our new program....." etc

 

[DeafCaroline]

DC, I wonder, that program that was so innovative according to their standards, do you think the "newness" of it made it even more difficult for you, like maybe you were supposed to be some kind of example, "leading the way forward with our new program....." etc

Oh yeah! I was considered a spokesmodel for this program so I was trotted out alot. Everyone kept telling me what a big success i was and all the while, I was thinking "but I'm not happy. I hate all of this."

 

[rolling7]

What do hearing kids and speech have to do with deaf people and the problems with the oral-only method?

Simple, nothing and everything.
To start with you oppressed 99% of the world's population which can not be true. That percent, is how the world communicates...oralism. I'll be the first to admit this percentage does not apply to reading/writing.
Perhaps you wish your post to apply only to the born deaf. Again you would be wrong since myself and many others I personally know are oral bad we are certainly not oppressed.
The way I see it is, the only folks oppressed are those who did not learn to read/write, be they hearing or deaf. Some have a serious problem learning, others choice not to pay attention in school and the last group is those who never got the chance to learn.
Regardless of the reason, these folks will always suffer until they are able to read/write.

 

[Smithtr]

I have experience anxiety avoid hearing people I changelle best focus on try beat to your defend strong focus, if supposed shy and or something anxiety (person) if beat to your won then changelle I am images learn it avoid I mistake do it best fight your mind empower and them your observed it hearing what's not matter serious
simply! short to win on defender strong!

 

[shel90]

Simple, nothing and everything.
To start with you oppressed 99% of the world's population which can not be true. That percent, is how the world communicates...oralism. I'll be the first to admit this percentage does not apply to reading/writing.
Perhaps you wish your post to apply only to the born deaf. Again you would be wrong since myself and many others I personally know are oral bad we are certainly not oppressed.
The way I see it is, the only folks oppressed are those who did not learn to read/write, be they hearing or deaf. Some have a serious problem learning, others choice not to pay attention in school and the last group is those who never got the chance to learn.
Regardless of the reason, these folks will always suffer until they are able to read/write.

I can safetly assume that you dont understand language development in deaf children.

 

[DeafCaroline]

I can safetly assume that you dont understand language development in deaf children.

My thoughts exactly. rolling7 - ASL is sign language. It does not prohibit Deaf people from learning to read and write. ASL is how Deaf people "speak" to each other.

Oralism is teaching Deaf people how to speak to and lipread hearing people. It has nothing to do with reading and writing.

Reading and writing is not contingent on having to learn how to speak and lipread first. Not at all. Language itself is an abstract concept learned and developed in the brain. Hearing people express language with their voice, Deaf people express language using their hands.

Reading and writing is yet another expression of a language and that's something both hearing and deaf are equally capable of doing regardless if the Deaf can't speak or hear.

 

[Berry]

If you think it's reasonable about the person's POV then that's all there is to it based on your own knowledge and understanding. The point is that it's the other person's end who think it doesn't sound reasonable or valid.

Please allow me to introduce you to Miller's Law:

"In order to understand what another person is saying, you must assume that it is true and try to find out what it could be true of."

This helps you to understand and respect viewpoints other than your own.

My knowledge and understanding is not the issue. What is or is not reasonable to you is not the issue. Whether the opinions we are discussing are mostly fear or mostly fact is NOT the issue.

The question is whether it is valid from the other persons point of view.

The rest of your post has nothing to do with the initial issue. You are simply attempting to prove to me that you are right and those you disagree with are wrong.

You also seem to believe that a person must agree with a point of view in order to be able to grant it validity. This in fact not correct. It is entirely possible for me to grant the validity of your opinion -- without agreeing with you.

I can grant both the validity of your opinion and the validity of the opinion of those you disagree with and still have a personal opinion that agrees with neither.

Can you do the same?

 

[drphil]

How does Miller "law" deal with contradiction in which both parties believe to be correct/true? An example-

Hearing people have/do "oppress the deaf" VS Hearing people don't "oppress the deaf"?

Implanted A B Harmony activated Aug/07

 

[rolling7]

I can safetly assume that you dont understand language development in deaf children.

You and DC can safely assume that ASL can NOT be spoken nor written. This alone hinders the complete language development in deaf children.
Case to point. I often get together with a bunch of deaf guys to watch sports. The C.C. is on the entire game but several of the guys are always asking "what was that call" because the ref/umpire uses general hand signs for calls. So I explain to the guys what the call is BUT if they could read the C.C. they would not need to ask.
Here in Houston we have an ABC broadcast of the news that uses ASL in a PIP and many deaf watch it because they can not read C.C. This short broadcast is usually all the news that these deaf get from television and, of course, the hearing get day long information. Don't get me started on how terrible ADA is went it comes to the news, there is a whole section elsewhere on AD about that.

 

[Berry]

How does Miller "law" deal with contradiction in which both parties believe to be correct/true? An example-

Hearing people have/do "oppress the deaf" VS Hearing people don't "oppress the deaf"?

Implanted A B Harmony activated Aug/07

That is an easy one. Just think about the question you are asking. You should always think about questions before you ask them. That way you can (possibly) tell if you are asking a real question or not.

Who believes either of those statements?

 

[inmate23]

Am I out of date if I say lipreading instead of speechreading? That's a new term to me.

This is my point of veiw on lipreading and speechreading

Lipreading- can been done through vision/tactile alone

Speechreading- is lipreading/cc/tactile with sound commenting each other

I am speechreader when using spoken language or watching TV

 

[shel90]

You and DC can safely assume that ASL can NOT be spoken nor written. This alone hinders the complete language development in deaf children.
Case to point. I often get together with a bunch of deaf guys to watch sports. The C.C. is on the entire game but several of the guys are always asking "what was that call" because the ref/umpire uses general hand signs for calls. So I explain to the guys what the call is BUT if they could read the C.C. they would not need to ask.
Here in Houston we have an ABC broadcast of the news that uses ASL in a PIP and many deaf watch it because they can not read C.C. This short broadcast is usually all the news that these deaf get from television and, of course, the hearing get day long information. Don't get me started on how terrible ADA is went it comes to the news, there is a whole section elsewhere on AD about that.

I rest my case.