Do we have a challenge ahead of us to avoid becoming Hearing?

[shel90]

I am wondering if the fact the ASL students were performing more poorly has to do with the education they were receiving. For example, I would learn that at Deaf schools, there would be some hearing teachers who don't sign very well which would making teaching and learning more difficult, no?

When I was a camp counselor at a daycamp for the deaf, I did notice that 8 to 12 year olds were not up to par with their reading and writing and I never thought it was because of ASL, but because their school was so crappy and the administration of the school had very low expectations of deaf students' capability to learn as well as their hearing peers.

Mostly it has to do with these children not having full access to language during the formative years from age birth to 5 years old or the family trying oral-only first only to learn years later that their children arent picking up on it and then resorting to ASL. ASL doesnt cause language delays because it is fully accessible to deaf children. No guessing games or missing out on what others are saying.

 

[DeafCaroline]

Oh, that's right! Valid point.

 

[shel90]

Oh, that's right! Valid point.

I am a Deaf Ed teacher and have been in the field for 13 years now.

 

[DeafCaroline]

I am a Deaf Ed teacher and have been in the field for 13 years now.

Must be frustrating for you to come up against the same wall over and over again when you try to emphasize the importance of ASL during formative years and hearing people can't or won't acknowledge that and as a result, the deaf kids are delayed in learning their first language then the hearing would say "ah hah! see, this is why it's more important to learn English than ASL. ASL stunts you."

I would go nuts if I were in your position.

 

[shel90]

Must be frustrating for you to come up against the same wall over and over again when you try to emphasize the importance of ASL during formative years and hearing people can't or won't acknowledge that and as a result, the deaf kids are delayed in learning their first language then the hearing would say "ah hah! see, this is why it's more important to learn English than ASL. ASL stunts you."

I would go nuts if I were in your position.

I have said ,'ah hah see" only to get "But my child will be different," or "My child can hear."

Oh well...unfortunately, every year we see kids get transferred to our program after falling so far behind and then people expect that because they learn ASL, they will catch up. Not always...some do if they have language delays but if they have language deficits, almost never be able to catch up and end up with low literacy skills. It is a shame.

I do go nuts sometimes but I do my best for those who lost a lot of years due to ASL being devalued by their families or the public schools.

 

[Frisky Feline]

I am wondering if the fact the ASL students were performing more poorly has to do with the education they were receiving. For example, I would learn that at Deaf schools, there would be some hearing teachers who don't sign very well which would making teaching and learning more difficult, no?

When I was a camp counselor at a daycamp for the deaf, I did notice that 8 to 12 year olds were not up to par with their reading and writing and I never thought it was because of ASL, but because their school was so crappy and the administration of the school had very low expectations of deaf students' capability to learn as well as their hearing peers.

Unfortunately, It's true. They do not know how to teach deaf kids when they know little ASL. I wish I knew back in my time and would have more speak out about their sign skills and their skills of teaching us thinking we could not do it but they are wrong. Needless to say, I admit that being on the internet help me a lot. oh well.

 

[DeafCaroline]

It really is. In Quebec, we know that if we want our kids to be fluently bilingual, that it's important to make sure they learn the second language before they reach age 5 so they can easily switch between two languages. that was why I sent my sons to french daycares only to make sure they wouldn't have a hard time later learning french and french literature in school. My sons are fluent in English and French and would do just as well in a french university as they would in an english one.

Everyone considers this as common sense and yet it occurs to no one that if, conversely, a child is delayed in learning their first language, they will have a harder time learning in school?

Argh. What a complicated and irrational world we live in.

 

[shel90]

It really is. In Quebec, we know that if we want our kids to be fluently bilingual, that it's important to make sure they learn the second language before they reach age 5 so they can easily switch between two languages. that was why I sent my sons to french daycares only to make sure they wouldn't have a hard time later learning french and french literature in school. My sons are fluent in English and French and would do just as well in a french university as they would in an english one.

Everyone considers this as common sense and yet it occurs to no one that if, conversely, a child is delayed in learning their first language, they will have a harder time learning in school?

Argh. What a complicated and irrational world we live in.

For hearing kids, it is easy to prevent the language delays. With deaf children, people try to apply what works for hearing kids on them but in reality, deaf children are not hearing so it usually backfires on them.

 

[jillio]

Ostensibly ASL can be used to be more than a simple sign. Discussion 301, Thus my question how does ASL do "this" re Cochlear Implant?
I acknowledge is a "piece of technology" which brings "hearing"( if one is a suitable candidate). to "deaf" persons.This raises the interesting question: why do "deaf militants" get "excited" at the introduction and use-over the last 30-40 years?

Implanted A B Harmony activated Aug/07

Uh..make it closer to 20 years for anything other than occasional experimental implantation.

But, I have a better question. Why do those who have been implanted tend to take any negatives expressed regarding implantation as a personal insult and then start calling anyone who takes the time to weigh the pros and cons of implantation a "Deaf Militant"?

 

[jillio]

What I am having a hard time understanding is what does Berry's explanation of an ASL sign having multiple meanings have to do with CIs and deaf militants?

It's akin to my saying "the word sink in the English language can mean the kitchen sink or a ship sinking" and drphil saying well, how does this apply to CIs and why do deaf militants get so excited about its introduction in the past 30-40 years?

I just don't understand what he's saying or what his point is. I really don't.

He just enjoys throwing the term "Deaf Militant" around. Most of the time, it isn't in context, or accurate, either one.

 

[Smithtr]

people have understand confused if supposed misunderstand conflict to understand ASL and LSQ, I was very misunderstand LSQQ,LSQ and BSL mixing on kind of sign language communication reason education, interpreter challenge is strong sign language! that is why reason challenge!

 

[jillio]

If ASL has multiple meaning to"concepts/things et al" what is the MULTIPLE meaning to a cochlear Implant? Harlan Lane"s "assumption" A Cochlear Implant is a instrument of genocide to the deaf community. Duly noted in the book the Journey into the DEAF WORLD.Lane, et al. I am also aware that the "official" position of the "US DEAF ASSOCIATION" ( not sure the exact title) HAS CHANGED. All of this noted in Michael Chorost's book Rebuilt

Being bilateral deaf-I obviously disagree with this "strange categorization".

IS LANE'S drivel STILL ASCRIBED TO BY DEAF MILITANTS?

Implanted A B Harmony activated Aug/07

"Lane's drivel" as you phrase it is not only subscribed to by the Deaf as being an accurrate portrayal, etiology, and history of Deaf Culture, it is also subscribed to by sociologists, anthropologists, and psychologists. You seem to be one of the few that don't grasp and give validity to the concept. I used to think that it was because you simply did not understand the concept. I now know it is a willful refusal to understand the concept. What your purpose is, only you know.

 

[jillio]

DrPhil is disagreeing with Lane's position that CI's are, supposedly, "an instrument of genocide to the deaf community," per the book, "Journey Into the Deaf World," by Lane and others. He mentions that Michael Chorost's book "Rebuilt" also discussed the issue.

DrPhil thinks Lane's position is drivel, and wonders if Deaf Militants still believe this. He (drphil) acknowledges that the position of the "US Deaf Association" (a group whose name he is not completely sure of) has changed regarding this "cultural genocide" assumption.

As a bilateral deaf person himself, who uses CIs, he strongly disagrees with that assertion and calls it a "strange categorization."

--------

What's so difficult about that? Better punctuation would be a help, but I've seen worse writing here.

Why in the world would he object to a statement regarding genocide of a culture that he believes doesn't even exist?

What is so hard about that? Words strung together with little relationship to each other, non-coherent ideas stated in confusing syntax, and attempts to relate unrelated concepts.

 

[jillio]

Oh, so apparently because I didn't have a CI, I don't have the same results as a child who does? Even though I have perfect English, and speak perfect? Okay. Whatever you say. (And, there's MANY of us -- probably more than not -- on this forum that will attest to the same for themselves.)

Exactly. CI advocates consistently misuse the concepts of brain development and plasticity in an attempt to promote early implantation. The very fact that they attempt to use it to this purpose is evidence of their lack of understanding of the concepts and the facts.

 

[jillio]

Does Kokonut have a CI? i would ask him but he never answers questions.

Doesn't qualify.

 

[jillio]

Yet, there are Deaf people who wear cochlear implants.

Why, yes there are. Which is evidence enough of what you seem to dispute. Deaf is a matter of philosophy and world view, not of deafness or hearing levels. Thanks for supporting what so many of us have been saying forever.

 

[jillio]

"doing the job" as in what? making people hearing? Either they are deaf people or now they are hearing people. You say that CIs dont make deaf people hearing people More confusion.

See this is why this cycle keeps going. Just accept that deaf people have developed good speech skills and used HAs to develop good oral skills. CIs arent needed for that. It is all an innate ability based on each individual.

Those that are implanted as infants have not been able to demonstrate whether an HA is doing the job or not. Parents are simply taking the audis word for it based on an audiogram that is liable to change drastically over time as the child becomes more functional with the HAs.

As for the Deaf adult, only that person can determine, for him or herself, what is doing the job and what isn't.

 

[jillio]

Hard to believe. I am bilateral deaf since December 20,2006. I became "suitable for consideration" of getting a Cochlear Implant which OHIP ( Ontario Health Insurance Plan) covered the entire cost. Hospital care, surgeon fees, audi services/mapping, Internal/external "hardware". Cost then-2007 was $55,000.00 CDN.

I have mentioned before Sunnybrook/Toronto has implanted 850 persons over a 19 year period with the rejection rate for one reason or other at 60%. I am one of the 850.

The fact remains- I am deaf with a Cochlear Implant-why this is a problem is beyond me.

Implanted A B Harmony activated Aug/07

It doesn't seem to be a problem for anyone but you. You consistently try to make it a problem, and then blame that problem on some abstract concept of a Deaf Militant. Frankly, no one here, and I suspect anywhere else, gives a rat's ass if you have a CI or not, or when you think you became deaf.

 

[jillio]

No, like explaining the underlying handshapes and motions that make up a sign. I can't think of any specific one offhand because this was several months ago. One of the simplest examples I can remember was him explaining the difference between verbs and nouns (ie verbs are generally a double-tap and the noun associated is a single-tap, or vice versa, I can't remember which offhand).

If you want a resource for this kind of information, The Linguistics of ASL is a good reference.

 

[jillio]

For what it's worth, I could sure imagine that. It sounds like from her hearing aids, she only got the very loud sounds of a dog barking, etc., but she wasn't getting the sounds of human speech. That sounds like it would be scary. If CIs gave access to speech sounds and the HAs didn't, that sounds like an excellent reason to get CIs.

DC, you have said many times what a tiresome childhood you had since you had so many hours of speech therapy in order to get you to the place you are now, a person with good speech who can't hear speech very well (if I'm understanding you correctly). Grendel's child will be spared that, as she is picking up speech naturally. Doesn't that seem like a good thing to you?

It does to me.

ANY sound is scary to a prelingually, profoundly deaf child, whether it is provided through HA or CI. Speech is scary as is environmental noise. Why? It is contrary to that child's natural state. It is also confusing to their brain.