District files appeal against deaf student

[jackiesolorzano]

Ohh now u say that u have sat thru the IEPs of those kids who were going to attend Riverside. According to your previous post, u said u heard what was being said about those kids from the special ed director and others without having contact with the students themselves. Well, if u did sit thru those kids' ieps, it is really sad that u labeled them as "bad".

I did not label them as bad. These kids that you are referring are not the ones that I have sat through their IEPs. The kids I have sat through their IEPs, I was translating for their parents.

Doesn't matter if it wasnt your word..the fact is u did use it in that one post. Those kids don't deserve that label.

Those kids could probably teach u a lot about empathy. I worked with children who had behavior disorders or issues and I did learn a lot from them especially empathy and more understanding of children who have emotional/behavior disorders. Now that u added u have sat through their IEPS, it seems like by calling them "bad", u were washing your hands of them cuz they couldn't succeed in meeting your expectations and send them off to Riverside,

The IEPS, I sat through those students were not my students. It is not my fault that Riverside has a bad rep.


which according to u has a bad rep? That is the impression I got from reading your posts about them.

Pek is right..many deaf/hoh children have suffered from your kind of philisophy and it is apparent the suffering continued with that "bad" label which they did not deserve no matter what they did or couldn't do.

One of my coworkers is an alumni from Riverside school for the deaf. She has her master's in deaf education and has been teaching for about 20 years. Riverside must have done something right.

I have never stepped in Riverside nor JTC but if I had to choose, I would go with Riverside because of its philosophy of meeting the deaf children's communiation needs rather than meeting the parents' communication needs. I am a teacher who serves the children so it makes sense that my priorities are to meet the childrens' learning/communication needs not the parents'. I thought education was for the children not for us adults?

But that is where you are wrong, parents need to be educated too. Most deaf kids are born to hearing parents. Most of us hearing parents in the beginning have no idea what to do with our deaf kids. We have no idea what to expect and this is where JTC has amazing program to educate the parents.

 

[jillio]

No actually neither applies to the reason that I sat in on these IEPs. I was there to translate for Spanish speaking parents.


Hey Jillo can you please respond to the responds that I gave Shel between the differences of the comments you made of JTC and the comments that I made of Riverside. I actually have gone to Riverside and spoken to their teachers, have you done the same of JTC. Yes, my contact with Riverside has been limited but I have had personal contact with Riverside, do you have personal contact with JTC,

Read the post that I made to Shel here it is in case you forgot.

The difference is that I have gone to Riverside school for the deaf. I have attended several meetings with teachers from Riverside school for the Deaf. I have met many parents and students that have gone to Riverside school for the deaf. I have sat in IEPS where the students are going to to to Riverside school for the deaf.

That is the difference.

I have responded to it, jackie. Perhaps you have just overlooked my response. And, to parrot shel, trashing an institution is far different than trashing the students. Perhaps you need to go back and respond to all of the questions that have been directed to you but which you have failed to answer. Such as, how is it that your daughter can have a 3.8 gpa, but be performing below grade level in many areas? Either she tests below grade level by 2 years, or she is functioning at grade level and actully achieving a 3.8 gpa. Can't be both. So, if she has a 3.8 gpa, she is a high functioning student and is obviously receiving access to the curriculum. The fact that she has to work hard to achieve this gpa, or that you have to help her with her homework is not justification for a $35,000/year accommodation.

If however, she is functioning 2 years below grade level as you have stated her testing results indicate, then the $35,000 would be better spent on remedial tutoring services to bring her up to grade level in all areas. Still, no justificationfor CART, becauswe if she is functioning below grade level, she will be unable to fully comprehend the grade level printed materials.

Oh, and now you are a translator, too? Are you certified for that as well? Becasue if you aren't, then the school system has violated the parents rights by using an uncertified translator.

 

[jillio]

But that is where you are wrong, parents need to be educated too. Most deaf kids are born to hearing parents. Most of us hearing parents in the beginning have no idea what to do with our deaf kids. We have no idea what to expect and this is where JTC has amazing program to educate the parents.

Wow....you really don't get it, do you. You grabbed hold of the JTC oralist philosophy simply becasue you are hearing and had no idea what it is to live as a deaf person. You didn't bother to put yourself in the situation of actually becoming familiar with deaf individuals who are successful Programs such as JTC prey on exactly that fear and ignorance, and the consequence is that parents never look beyond what they are told by the oralists to see the reality of the situation. Why didn't you ask the deaf community what to do with your deaf children? Why did you ask a bunch of hearing people? That's my whole point. Your intention was not to educate yourself regarding all of the implications of their deafness, or to gain an understanding of the realistic obstacles they would face and how to overcome them. Had that been your intention, you would have gone into the Deaf community and asked them to teach you what it meant to be a deaf child. Your entire motivation was to make your deaf children as hearing as possible. That speaks volumes right there regarding your intractable belief that hearing is superior to deafness, and that the main goal of raising a deaf child is to make them behave as speak as closely to a hearing child as possible. Instead you turned to a bunch of hearing people who have a monetary stake in promoting their oralist philosophies and asked them to tell you what it was like to be a dearf child. They have no more idea than does any other hearing person, because they have never lived as a deaf individual. Why do you continue to insist that hearing people know more about deafness and the experience of deaf people than the deaf themselves do? You have exposed yourself for exactly what you are. A strict oralist who holds onto the mistaken belief that oral deaf are superior to signing deaf. It has been implied in nearly every post you have made, with the worst example being the remark you made about the students attending Riverside. And the numerous contradictions you have made regarding your child's level of functioning have completely destroyed your credibility.

The initial lawsuit may have been about the question of accessibilty, but your claims of your daughter's level of functioning throw that argument right out the window. And, if your daughter is also testing 2 levels below her actual grade, then how is it that you didn't notice these deficits until she was a high school sophomore? Why haven't you taken the measures necessary to bring her up to grade level?

Answer some of those questions jackie.

 

[jillio]

But that is where you are wrong, parents need to be educated too. Most deaf kids are born to hearing parents. Most of us hearing parents in the beginning have no idea what to do with our deaf kids. We have no idea what to expect and this is where JTC has amazing program to educate the parents.

It is a program to educate parents about the oral only method. Oh, and by the way, you said your certification required 40 hours of observation in other deaf ed programs. Funny, JTC does their certification in conjunction with a master's in special ed, and they say they require all observation to be done at JTC, or at another approved institution that uses the auditory-verbal or aural-auditory approach. Full time participation required. So much for required observation of signing classrooms.

 

[deafdyke]

but then again.... where have I mentionned "oral-only ? Should I force signlanguage on Lotte? Should I force cued speech ? Or should I look at the progress and decided form there....

Well "looking at the progress" and deciding from there is a little too pathological. You're still looking at it from the perspective of a hearing person. "Oh Lotte's doing well orally and doesn't "need" Sign or cued speech."
You wouldn't be forcing them on her............you'd be introducing them as just more tools for her toolbox!
She might not need them the way deafer kids need them, but other tools besides oral speech, might mean the difference between just mildly acheiving and being a superstar in something. In other words with the tools available she wouldn't need to expend all her energy on using just one tool.
Make sense now? Plus its always easier to learn how to use a particualr tool early on, then it is to "wait and see"
Introduce other tools early on.........................Don't worry about whether or not hearing/nondisabled people don't use those tools. Just worry about how well equipted with tools your daughter is. Then that way you'll never have to hear Lotte ask " Papa, why did you never introduce me to Sign or Cued Speech or whatever?"

Programs such as JTC prey on exactly that fear and ignorance, and the consequence is that parents never look beyond what they are told by the oralists to see the reality of the situation. Why didn't you ask the deaf community what to do with your deaf children? Why did you ask a bunch of hearing people

*nods* They push the "Oh your child can be healthy and normal! They don't "need" Sign! mentality. They really do make it sound like oral dhh kids somehow magically assimulate into the hearing world b/c they can hear and talk without the "crutch" of ASL.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

I have responded to it, jackie. Perhaps you have just overlooked my response. And, to parrot shel, trashing an institution is far different than trashing the students. Perhaps you need to go back and respond to all of the questions that have been directed to you but which you have failed to answer. Such as, how is it that your daughter can have a 3.8 gpa, but be performing below grade level in many areas?

I have never said that she scores 2 grade below in many areas, there are areas she does but it is not many.

Either she tests below grade level by 2 years, or she is functioning at grade level and actully achieving a 3.8 gpa. Can't be both.

Yes, she can be both. There are some gaps not a lot but there are gaps isn't that the whole of getting a chld with special the help they need.

, if she has a 3.8 gpa, she is a high functioning student and is obviously receiving access to the curriculum. The fact that she has to work hard to achieve this gpa, or that you have to help her with her homework is not justification for a $35,000/year accommodation.

That is your opinion thank goodness you do not have an actual say in this case.

If however, she is functioning 2 years below grade level as you have stated her testing results indicate, then the $35,000 would be better spent on remedial tutoring services to bring her up to grade level in all areas. Still, no justificationfor CART, becauswe if she is functioning below grade level, she will be unable to fully comprehend the grade level printed materials.

You can make this judgement because you know my daughter so well that you know if CART is right for her.

Oh, and now you are a translator, too? Are you certified for that as well? Becasue if you aren't, then the school system has violated the parents rights by using an uncertified translator.

No, I am not a certified translator so please report me, maybe then I would have easier caseload. I do not get paid extra for translating I do it because there are none available.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

It is a program to educate parents about the oral only method. Oh, and by the way, you said your certification required 40 hours of observation in other deaf ed programs. Funny, JTC does their certification in conjunction with a master's in special ed, and they say they require all observation to be done at JTC, or at another approved institution that uses the auditory-verbal or aural-auditory approach. Full time participation required. So much for required observation of signing classrooms.

What are you talking about. First there are no classrooms in the United States that can call themselves Auditory Verbal. You must not know what Auditory Verbal means. Second, I am not sure where you got your information, I observe/volunteer 40 hours at a TC program in Orange County. Also during my year at JTC every Monday we went to all the different TC programs in souther California, this is besides the 40 hours. Of course we also saw all the oral programs in southern California. I did my student teaching also in oral program in Orange County.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Wow....you really don't get it, do you. You grabbed hold of the JTC oralist philosophy simply becasue you are hearing and had no idea what it is to live as a deaf person. You didn't bother to put yourself in the situation of actually becoming familiar with deaf individuals who are successful Programs such as JTC prey on exactly that fear and ignorance, and the consequence is that parents never look beyond what they are told by the oralists to see the reality of the situation. Why didn't you ask the deaf community what to do with your deaf children? Why did you ask a bunch of hearing people? That's my whole point. Your intention was not to educate yourself regarding all of the implications of their deafness, or to gain an understanding of the realistic obstacles they would face and how to overcome them. Had that been your intention, you would have gone into the Deaf community and asked them to teach you what it meant to be a deaf child. Your entire motivation was to make your deaf children as hearing as possible. That speaks volumes right there regarding your intractable belief that hearing is superior to deafness, and that the main goal of raising a deaf child is to make them behave as speak as closely to a hearing child as possible. Instead you turned to a bunch of hearing people who have a monetary stake in promoting their oralist philosophies and asked them to tell you what it was like to be a dearf child. They have no more idea than does any other hearing person, because they have never lived as a deaf individual. Why do you continue to insist that hearing people know more about deafness and the experience of deaf people than the deaf themselves do? You have exposed yourself for exactly what you are. A strict oralist who holds onto the mistaken belief that oral deaf are superior to signing deaf. It has been implied in nearly every post you have made, with the worst example being the remark you made about the students attending Riverside. And the numerous contradictions you have made regarding your child's level of functioning have completely destroyed your credibility.

The initial lawsuit may have been about the question of accessibilty, but your claims of your daughter's level of functioning throw that argument right out the window. And, if your daughter is also testing 2 levels below her actual grade, then how is it that you didn't notice these deficits until she was a high school sophomore? Why haven't you taken the measures necessary to bring her up to grade level?

Answer some of those questions jackie.

Jillo, I am not going to answer the same questions over and over again just because you are not hearing the answer you want to hear.

 

[jillio]

No, I am not a certified translator so please report me, maybe then I would have easier caseload. I do not get paid extra for translating I do it because there are none available.

A gpa is an overall accounting a student's cummulative functioning. If a student is functioning below grade level, they cannot achieve a 3.8 gpa. That requires nothing lower than an A- in any course. If she has nothing lower than an A- in any course, then she is a high functioning student. The only other possibility would be that you have falsified information in your posts. No wonder the school is appealing the decision.

I find it difficult to believe that in So. California, with its large Spanish speking population, there are no certified translators available.

You are correct. I do not have a say in this case. But thank God that thinking people do have a say. They have already spotted your contradictions and called you on them.

If you had any ethics at all, it would not be necessary to report you. You would not be attempting to fulfill positions that you are totally unqualified for. But your own contradictions and posts answer the questions regarding your ethical standards. They are quite obviously non-existent.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Well "looking at the progress" and deciding from there is a little too pathological. You're still looking at it from the perspective of a hearing person. "Oh Lotte's doing well orally and doesn't "need" Sign or cued speech."
You wouldn't be forcing them on her............you'd be introducing them as just more tools for her toolbox!
She might not need them the way deafer kids need them, but other tools besides oral speech, might mean the difference between just mildly acheiving and being a superstar in something. In other words with the tools available she wouldn't need to expend all her energy on using just one tool.
Make sense now? Plus its always easier to learn how to use a particualr tool early on, then it is to "wait and see"
Introduce other tools early on.........................Don't worry about whether or not hearing/nondisabled people don't use those tools. Just worry about how well equipted with tools your daughter is. Then that way you'll never have to hear Lotte ask " Papa, why did you never introduce me to Sign or Cued Speech or whatever?"
*nods* They push the "Oh your child can be healthy and normal! They don't "need" Sign! mentality. They really do make it sound like oral dhh kids somehow magically assimulate into the hearing world b/c they can hear and talk without the "crutch" of ASL.

DD you know how JTC runs their program because you have been there yourself or have you talked to someone there. I understand how JTC was years ago have you talked to them in the last 10 years, NO, you haven't.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

A gpa is an overall accounting a student's cummulative functioning. If a student is functioning below grade level, they cannot achieve a 3.8 gpa. That requires nothing lower than an A- in any course. If she has nothing lower than an A- in any course, then she is a high functioning student. The only other possibility would be that you have falsified information in your posts. No wonder the school is appealing the decision.

I find it difficult to believe that in So. California, with its large Spanish speking population, there are no certified translators available.

You are correct. I do not have a say in this case. But thank God that thinking people do have a say. They have already spotted your contradictions and called you on them.

If you had any ethics at all, it would not be necessary to report you. You would not be attempting to fulfill positions that you are totally unqualified for. But your own contradictions and posts answer the questions regarding your ethical standards. They are quite obviously non-existent.

Thank you

 

[jillio]

Jillo, I am not going to answer the same questions over and over again just because you are not hearing the answer you want to hear.

No, jackie, you are not going to answer the questions at all because you don't have any logical, valid answer. You continue to contradict yourself, and when you are called on it, you simply become emotional and attempt to divert the topic. You are doing the same in the other forum that is discussing this case.

If I were you, I would be hopingthat the court doesn't get ahold of your posts to use as evidence. You have completely blown your case. If you remember, the deaf and the deaf educators here were in support of an attempt to get a student CART services is they were shown to be needed. You are the one that has made people decide that you are being unreasonable in your demands. People have stopped supporting you becasue of what you have said, and the contradictory claims you have made. You are the one that blew it.

 

[jillio]

Thank you

You're welcome.

 

[jillio]

DD you know how JTC runs their program because you have been there yourself or have you talked to someone there. I understand how JTC was years ago have you talked to them in the last 10 years, NO, you haven't.

How do you know how schools for the deafr function when you haven't done same? JTC does not require observation at schools for the deaf, but require full time participation in their program or another program that is strictly auditory-verbal or aural - verbal in nature. Explain that one please.

 

[jillio]

What are you talking about. First there are no classrooms in the United States that can call themselves Auditory Verbal. You must not know what Auditory Verbal means. Second, I am not sure where you got your information, I observe/volunteer 40 hours at a TC program in Orange County. Also during my year at JTC every Monday we went to all the different TC programs in souther California, this is besides the 40 hours. Of course we also saw all the oral programs in southern California. I did my student teaching also in oral program in Orange County.

Yes, jackie, I know exactly what auditory-verbal means. And to cliamthat there are no classrooms in the U.S. that are not auditory verbal in nature just shows the extent of your ignorance. JTC claims to be just that, and they also require participation in programs that espouse this method. I got my information directly from JTC.

 

[jillio]

So, now you are admitting that you falsely stated your daughter's gpa and that it isn't 3.8, but 3.38. Well, that is still a B+ average overall, which is still in the above average range. Her class rank is 268? 268 out of how many? One number doesn't mean much without the other. And your reason for misstating your daughter's gpa? You just "forgot" the other number. That's quite a mistake for an educator. Do you do that often? Like maybe when you are making reccommendations for other people's children?

 

[pek1]

No, jackie, you are not going to answer the questions at all because you don't have any logical, valid answer. You continue to contradict yourself, and when you are called on it, you simply become emotional and attempt to divert the topic. You are doing the same in the other forum that is discussing this case.

If I were you, I would be hopingthat the court doesn't get ahold of your posts to use as evidence. You have completely blown your case. If you remember, the deaf and the deaf educators here were in support of an attempt to get a student CART services is they were shown to be needed. You are the one that has made people decide that you are being unreasonable in your demands. People have stopped supporting you becasue of what you have said, and the contradictory claims you have made. You are the one that blew it.

jillio,

I think it would be a good idea to contact that school and find out what her real name is, then get her isp address from alldeaf.com and then report her, making copies of every post and thread she has responded to. "Teachers" like this one scare the living bejeepers out of me and I'm thankful I don't live in Orange County, California and didn't grow up there. I'd be hurting worse academically, as I can only imagine how many other students are victims of Jackie's system.

You know, after all this, I think I'm going to take deafdyke's advise and learn more asl, as my one year of it isn't sufficient. I might as well change churches, too, as mine doesn't sign and another one that I've been invited to does.

Jackie, this is not an attack on you, but rather, the methods you are using. I still wish, to this day, that my parents had sent me to the deaf school here in Minnesota. To say "educate" parents, as you did, makes me wonder who you are kidding. If a child is deaf at birth (now being tested, mandatory by law), they're on top of it right now. To believe what you said makes parents look like a bunch of horny people reckless in their pursuit of parenthood.

 

[loml]

double up

 

[loml]

How big is your guilt gene?

Jillio

Instead you turned to a bunch of Deaf people who have a monetary stake in promoting their ASL philosophies and asked them to tell you what it was like to be a deaf child

. (oh and it's deaf not dearf)

and somehow this makes you a better parent? ohhhh pleaseeee

Having CART in the classroom could benefit more than one student.

 

[jillio]

Jillio . (oh and it's deaf not dearf)

and somehow this makes you a better parent? ohhhh pleaseeee

Having CART in the classroom could benefit more than one student.

How so? And since this isn't a class action suit brought by parents of other deaf children int he same classroom, it is pertinent only to jackie's daughter. The $35,000 a year service is being requested on behalf of her daughter only. Other students are not eligible unless it is specifically written into their IEPs that they receive additional accommodations.