Deaf view on a CI kid... its a bummer..

[Liebling:-)))]

I have excellent literacy skills even if my parents didn't sign, and I didn't hear well.

But you are lacking of understanding to philosophical logic, knowledge and social contacts/skills.

Higher literacy skills hardly depends on parent's ability to sign- it depends on their general attitude toward education per se.
If to a parent an education, literary skills, matters - then it reflects on their children.

The majority of the deaf parents I knew were themselves hardly educated. They had poor literacy skills, and weren't involved in their children education either.
I remember an instance when a hearing child asked his deaf parent for healp with basic math. the parent didn't learn math himself either so he just shrugged: "I dunno math, I can't help, sorry". he didn't organized any help from other sources either (tutoring, after classes homework club etc). So the child eventually failed math. same with English: "I dunno, I'm sorry you have to it yourself.."

When I pointed out to one such parent that their child is falling behind in early elementary grade, their response was "she is just not interested in this". Whewn I pointed out the child needs and education to get ahead in life they just shrugged "what will be will be..".
No concern, no worry, no parent involvement.

The same applies to uneducated hearing parents to whom education is not important. They do nothing to help their children, deaf or hearing, to succed in school. No matter how well they will sign, it won't help their kids to achieve good literary skills.



Fuzzy

*sigh*

 

[Liebling:-)))]

That's exactly what I would like to see too, then I wouldn't have a problem with accepting the parents' decision on implanting their children...

Exactly that's what I want to see, too.

 

[Cloggy]

Exactly. It has been supported and replicated numerous times. The highest literacy rates in deaf children, both with CI and without are found in deaf children exposed to both sign and speech on a consistent basis.

You are saying that, where do you get that from.
I would like to read an article - approved by you of course - about that.
Care to share such a document with all of us??

And parents, while they can project their attitudes toward education onto their children, cannot raise literacy rates by demonstrating educational values. A child cannot become literate through osmosis.....by just absorbing parental attitudes. They must must must have language to develop literacy. Therefore, delayed language=dealyed literacy.

Totally agree with that!

 

[Liebling:-)))]

You REALLY have no clue. You're just tossing judgments around. Its this kind of attitude that has made so many parents who come to this forum and look for insight, support, communication to leave. I just hope Cloggy doesn't become one of them.

*sigh* If they expect to get positive responses/information all the time instead of accept cons/pros and positives/negatives on both sides then the discussion forum is not right for them.

 

[Cloggy]

*sigh* If they expect to get positive responses/information all the time instead of accept cons/pros and positives/negatives on both sides then the discussion forum is not right for them.

So, now it's "them" and "us"....

Sad

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Really?????
Then how come when I DISAGREE, i have different opinion, I am immediately accused of disrespecting?
Clearly, a difference in opinion is granted to SOME people only, not all of us.

Fuzzy

I do not see that you disagree with us but angry and offensive, accused us and belittle us... and tried to correct their misspelling...

If you disagree something then you should post in polite way... "I respectfully disagree and explain why I see different ......" but you didn't...

You posted mostly to accuse/disrespect/belittle them... You are angry and offensive then accuse them to insult your hearing parents... Did you know what MOCK is... You are manipulate liar.... disguist.... master manipulator, uncanny skill, liar, misinformation, misleading, blah... blah... blah... Is it respectful disagreement? NO....

See example of your post toward me last July 2007

You think because you went to SOME health conferences, some spas (??? I go to spa to have a facial and relax. I don't consider spa to be a good source of knowledge) you are now an expert on nutrition?

I don't trust you.

What's this? Of course DISRESPECTFUL and LACKING of knowledge skills... It sound that you has a very little knowledge of spa resorts where I experienced last year and have many lectures, heath conferences there... etc... Where's your respect. ? NO...

 

[Cloggy]

Originally Posted by Cloggy View Post
Thanks for those words - wise words.

Just a small reply,
Sign has been the first thing we used as soon as we knew Lotte was deaf. And I have always given a positive view on sign. Still do.
Maria: Ok, show me a video of YOURSELF in signin' to prove us that you still usin' signin'. I mean, REALLY sign language, not somethin' like you don't really want to when showin'. I want to see your signin' that is showin' encouragement.
Cloggy: See the blog.

Cloggy: Sign was used when Lotte got her CI, because, communication is the most important in the relationship between the parent and the child.
Maria: Yeah, right ! When you mentioned " when Lotte got her CI " it obviously to me that you are encouragin' her over CI rather than ASL/sign language. You are makin' it to " influence " her to keep up speak/hear rather than ASL/sign language.
Cloggy: Eh, yes, we encourage speech. What's wrong with that. After all, she can hear!

Cloggy: Sign is still used, when needed, but that is not very often. Lotte herself does not use it any more. She will use her voice, even when she cannot hear and we use sign.
Maria: Know why ? Because, you don't keep encouragin' her to keep up signin'/ASL like you would encourage her to talk/hear. You use your voice most of the time to her rather than usin' your hands in signin'. I can tell which influence you are usin'.
Cloggy: So can I. And I hate to disappoint you but Lotte loves to speak, use her voice..

Cloggy: Sign might be used again, but by Lotte's choice. If she feels a need for it, and wants to use it to communicate we will support her in that. We have loved using signlanguage.
Maria: Sign might be used again ? Are you sooo sure about that, Cloggy ? The way I see it between your lines, you are not encouragin' it. You just leave it out. You leave your hands in the closet and let your " voice " around to keep talkin'.

Cloggy: Yes, I'm sure it might be used again. You should stop reading between the lines, because it really confuses you. Not strange, as there is nothing to see there...

My hands - the are holding the cards when I play cards with Lotte. She also holds the cards in her hand. Then she asks me if I have a certain card, I ask her.... We couldn't sign if we had wanted to.

​

Cloggy: And I can see the suffering that happened due to the lack of communication with many of the people here. It is sad, and I would hate to see that happening to any child.
Maria: Yeah, right ! Is that what you see ? I don't think so, if we suffer due to the lack of communication. It has to do with our experiences and what our " views " tell us and what we " feel " about it ( of course, our hearts tell us if, it is right or not ).
Cloggy: You are not able to see suffering due to the lack of communication? Again. Stop reading between the lines of posters like Jillio and Shel, and many other posters. They see the suffering.

Cloggy: I know not all parents are not like me.
But do other people realise that...???

Noo, not all parents are not like you, just because your case shows how selfishness it is. Teachers in school will give their students " D " / " F " grades, if they don't learn. High schools have their sign language classes. It doesn't mean it is only occassion or once in a while, if the students don't feel like it. They HAVE TO learn. That's what the school give the credits to them for. Without learn, they will NOT earn their credits to pass their grade.

I was right all along that you chose CI. Reason : just to get the easy way out - soo much easier for you. You don't really want to work on it effortlessly. Period.

So that is how you view raising a deaf child. Like " effortless work"....
Guess your work with yourself is not finished yet..

 

[Liebling:-)))]

So, now it's "them" and "us"....

Sad

It's neecy's post, I am referring to.

Because Neecy stated : "many parents who come to this forum and look for insight, support, communication to leave"...

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Oh yes, I forget to add one more about your disrespectful post, Fuzzy...

HANDCIAPPED!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Audiofuzzy]

For God's sake - ENOUGH LIEBLING - I got it - you don't like me- FINE!
I am a big girl I will survive this. Please use my PM if you want to keep discussing about this, ok?
Can we move go on now?

Maria: Ok, show me a video of YOURSELF in signin' to prove us that you still usin' signin'. I mean, REALLY sign language, not somethin' like you don't really want to when showin'. I want to see your signin' that is showin' encouragement.
Cloggy: See the blog.

Are you kidding Cloggy - why would you have to prove yourself?

Fuzzy

 

[Liebling:-)))]

For God's sake - ENOUGH LIEBLING - I got it - you don't like me- FINE!
I am a big girl I will survive this. Please use my PM if you want to keep discussing about this, ok?
Can we move go on now?

Fuzzy

I has no clue what you are talking about... I has no idea that you think I don't like you... It's children talk...

I only come to make general posts and can say something why I disagree or convince anyone or make friends.

Yes, I accepted and move on at months ago but I only quoted to convince you the example and show you how difference between disagreement and disrespectful.

 

[Audiofuzzy]

I only come to make general posts and can say something why I disagree or convince anyone or make friends.

Yes, I accepted and move on at months ago but I only quoted to convince you the example and show you how difference between disagreement and disrespectful.

Your opinion about what is disagreement and what's disrespectful differs from mine...

Fuzzy

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Your opinion about what is disagreement and what's disrespectful differs from mine...

Fuzzy

Really? I am not only one who see your post is disrespectful, not disagreement.

 

[Audiofuzzy]

Really? I am not only one who see your post is disrespectful, not disagreement.

That's because there is few of you with about the same comprehency of written English. No matter what I say, it's misunderstood and also because
I disagree, it's immediately declared "disrespectful". no matter if I am right.. (especially when I am right).


Fuzzy

 

[Calphool]

U are both wrong. It is because people expected us to live the life like a hearing person rather than educating us about our needs and that it is ok to be deaf and that there is nothing wrong with us. . Also, the expectations of hearing people have of us to meet their hearing needs all the time without ever meeting our deaf needs which makes life difficult for many of us. Many of us are tired of hearing people not respecting ASL, not respecting that we are deaf, and we see it happening again with children who are implanted. It seems like when we voice our opinions or anger, it is brushed off but when u, hearing people voice yours, it is expected to taken seriously. That is inequality and many of us are still fighting against it.

I dont think it is fear of the unknown..it is the anger of the hearing world telling us to do this or that when it was very difficult for us and making us feel inferior. Cloggy, u put so much value on being able to hear and expect us to have the same values. Some of us dont..

If the hearing world had shown respect for ASL instead of forcing us to use spoken language only and not put us down as retarded or whatever, maybe there wouldnt be so much anger, wouldnt there be?

I think most hearing people think of deafness as a "medical problem", and they assume everyone wants their medical problems "fixed". Many hearing people rarely see a deaf person, so they don't know that deaf people have pride in their culture. In fact, many hearing people don't even know that deafies have a separate culture at all. Deafness is almost unique in that way, so hearies often are surprised by it. For example, there really is not a strong "blind culture", so it surprises hearies when they learn that deaf people have a culture all their own.

There is a lot of ignorance in the world...

 

[Liebling:-)))]

That's because there is few of you with about the same comprehency of written English. No matter what I say, it's misunderstood and also because
I disagree, it's immediately declared "disrespectful". no matter if I am right.. (especially when I am right).


Fuzzy

The problem is your know-it-all and don't want to admit that you are wrong...

 

[Audiofuzzy]

The problem is your know-it-all and don't want to admit that you are wrong...

OR, perhaps someone else is stubborn, and don't want to admit any wrongdoing... and that's why attacks me.

Fuzzy

 

[Calphool]

If one likes to hear ....that's why some believe in " individual " choice...


While it is true that cochlear implants tend to work better than hearing aids and if that choice is made particularly by hearing parents, it is very important that that CI child is still exposed to the deaf world and ASL...I think that the debate here is that some hearing parents don't believe sign language is needed only oral..


And look around you, not every deaf child wants to hear....

I think that it is a self-esteem issue for some hearing parents.

My brother-in-law became 100% deaf as a young adult. His dad absolutely refuses to learn ANY sign. His mother took a class or two, but didn't really learn it very well.

My brother-in-law lost his hearing because of a genetic problem that required brain surgery. So, for his dad and mom, they seem to be unwilling to face the fact that their genetics caused their son (who they love of course) to have such "trouble". It's psychological -- like "denial." So, if they force him to lipread, they feel better about themselves. In their mind they see lipreading as "Oh, see, he is 'coping well' with being deaf... we don't feel as bad about ourselves and our genes."

My wife and I looked at it the opposite way, but it was easier for us, because we did not feel like we "did anything to cause his deafness." For us, it seemed very natural that we needed to learn ASL to be able to communicate better with my sister and brother-in-law. It is hard for hearies to think of deafness not as a loss -- especially before we start to learn about deaf culture.

I actually have almost the opposite problem as many people in this thread. As an ASL learner, I get sad and disappointed when Deaf people put me down for not being as good at signing as they are, or telling me that I'm "disrespecting their culture" and "not appreciating ASL" because I'm not as good as they are, or because I sometimes sign English-like.

I understand that it's natural for a culture to develop around a language (just like American hearies have a culture that's built around English), but some deaf people need to "get a grip" (English idiom: "need to calm down and look at how they are behaving"). Some deafies act like they own ASL personally. I don't do that with English. If a Spanish person comes up to me with broken English and asks me a question, I either switch to my broken Spanish, or I try to help them in English. I don't become militant about how bad their English is, or how they're disrespecting my English culture. If they ask for help learning some English, I naturally want to help them, in the hope that they'll teach me some Spanish.

I don't really understand the instinct some people have (deaf and hearing) to define themselves with only their particular language -- to the point that they take pride in NOT knowing another language. Why would anybody take pride in being intentionally ignorant? Why wouldn't you instead try to be very skilled in at least one language, and then have a little bit of skill in other languages?

For non-vocal deafies, I suppose it's a little frightening to try to learn to voice, but why not try a just a little? Not because someone is oppressing you, but instead because it is better to have some command of more than one skill (for you personally). That's how I feel with ASL, Spanish, French, etc. I will never be as good as a native signer or Spanish or French speaker, but I certainly don't take pride that I can only speak English. I just don't understand that way of thinking.

 

[shel90]

I think that it is a self-esteem issue for some hearing parents.

My brother-in-law became 100% deaf as a young adult. His dad absolutely refuses to learn ANY sign. His mother took a class or two, but didn't really learn it very well.

My brother-in-law lost his hearing because of a genetic problem that required brain surgery. So, for his dad and mom, they seem to be unwilling to face the fact that their genetics caused their son (who they love of course) to have such "trouble". It's psychological -- like "denial." So, if they force him to lipread, they feel better about themselves. In their mind they see lipreading as "Oh, see, he is 'coping well' with being deaf... we don't feel as bad about ourselves and our genes."

My wife and I looked at it the opposite way, but it was easier for us, because we did not feel like we "did anything to cause his deafness." For us, it seemed very natural that we needed to learn ASL to be able to communicate better with my sister and brother-in-law. It is hard for hearies to think of deafness not as a loss -- especially before we start to learn about deaf culture.

I actually have almost the opposite problem as many people in this thread. As an ASL learner, I get sad and disappointed when Deaf people put me down for not being as good at signing as they are, or telling me that I'm "disrespecting their culture" and "not appreciating ASL" because I'm not as good as they are, or because I sometimes sign English-like.

I understand that it's natural for a culture to develop around a language (just like American hearies have a culture that's built around English), but some deaf people need to "get a grip" (English idiom: "need to calm down and look at how they are behaving"). Some deafies act like they own ASL personally. I don't do that with English. If a Spanish person comes up to me with broken English and asks me a question, I either switch to my broken Spanish, or I try to help them in English. I don't become militant about how bad their English is, or how they're disrespecting my English culture. If they ask for help learning some English, I naturally want to help them, in the hope that they'll teach me some Spanish.

I don't really understand the instinct some people have (deaf and hearing) to define themselves with only their particular language -- to the point that they take pride in NOT knowing another language. Why would anybody take pride in being intentionally ignorant? Why wouldn't you instead try to be very skilled in at least one language, and then have a little bit of skill in other languages?

For non-vocal deafies, I suppose it's a little frightening to try to learn to voice, but why not try a just a little? Not because someone is oppressing you, but instead because it is better to have some command of more than one skill (for you personally). That's how I feel with ASL, Spanish, French, etc. I will never be as good as a native signer or Spanish or French speaker, but I certainly don't take pride that I can only speak English. I just don't understand that way of thinking.

For my brother, he was in intensive speech therapy for 5 years before he started kindergarden to teach him to develop oral skills but was unable to get to the level to make himself understandable to most people. Of course when he tries he gets dirty looks from people so that is gonna take the motivation away. That's why many deaf people remain non-vocal cuz they are tired of people giving them dirty looks or assuming they are retarded cuz their speech is not clear. Who wants to give it a try again after bad experiences? I wouldnt.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

For my brother, he was in intensive speech therapy for 5 years before he started kindergarden to teach him to develop oral skills but was unable to get to the level to make himself understandable to most people. Of course when he tries he gets dirty looks from people so that is gonna take the motivation away. That's why many deaf people remain non-vocal cuz they are tired of people giving them dirty looks or assuming they are retarded cuz their speech is not clear. Who wants to give it a try again after bad experiences? I wouldnt.

Yes I can understand where your brother come from and don't blame him for that. It affect his good self-estreem/self-confidence.

I was like *shake my head* when the people gave him dirty looks... It's THEIR closed mind and ignorant...