Deaf Adoption: A Rhetorician's New Family

[kokonut]

Are you making a diagnosis?

Yes, well. Sort of. I'm testing my own theory here.

So, you're not willing to give out his word discrimination score??

 

[kokonut]

Shouldn't one always use that when speaking on the phone, whether they are speaking to a hearing person or a person with a hearing loss? And you stated "shouting".

Call it a hyperbole. Meant to be a semi-sarcastic comment about the shouting bit from the beginning.

 

[jillio]

Yes, well. Sort of. I'm testing my own theory here.

So, you're not willing to give out his word discrimination score??

If you are going to involve him in a research project, it will be necessary to have him sign a consent form. And, I would suggest that you are testing your hypothesis, not your theory. Theory is what is arrived at once a null hypothesis has been unsupported through experimentation and replication.

Is your research project receiving academic support?

 

[jillio]

Call it a hyperbole. Meant to be a semi-sarcastic comment about the shouting bit from the beginning.

Semi-sarcastic? It is either sarcastic or it isn't.

 

[R2D2]

.
I noticed in your video of Lotte, her brother and u sitting on the table. As a deaf person, I notice these things so I dont know if u noticed it..but did u see Lotte looking at u the whole time while her brother still can turn away but still stay in the conversations. I could be wrong but it looked like Lotte was concentrating on hearing what u were saying to her. I cant base my judgement solely on one video itself but that was what I saw so..that's typical of many people with hearing loss...they have to concentrate hard to "hear".

After you made this comment I went to Cloggy's blog to have a look at the video clip you spoke of. Are you talking about the video clip taken in 2005 where she was signing and singing at the same time? That's the only one I could find where she was with her brother. It would make sense if she was looking at her father as he was signing to her? Her brother presumably looked elsewhere because he was going by the speech.

I noticed in the later videos in 2006 where she was singing and talking with no sign she hardly looked at her father but concentrated on some envelope, looked directly at the camera (I bet he had the screen flipped out so she could see herself) and other things. Perhaps then in the first video she was looking at her father because he was signing to her?

 

[deafdyke]

I

started to use HA's in 8th grade and was diagnosed with a sens/neural loss. Probably in the moderate range My daughter (the 23 yo) was diagnosed in 4th grade and she adapted much better to HA's then I did.

Yeah, my question is the same.........were you postlingal or perilingal? (lost hearing while learning language) Posties tend to be more "SHHH"/ALDA then NAD. And if your daughter lost hearing in 4th, no wonder she was able to do so well. She had a VERY strong L1 language. Perhaps if she'd been born hoh her academic experiance would have been drasticly different. Oh, and I don't think that posties nessarily NEED ASL/Deaf culture. They are indeed "hearing impaired"........they are hearing and function without hearing.....they don't see each other as "Seeing" people. They're more like late deafened people rather then pediatric dhh population.

 

[jag]

I
Yeah, my question is the same.........were you postlingal or perilingal? (lost hearing while learning language) Posties tend to be more "SHHH"/ALDA then NAD. And if your daughter lost hearing in 4th, no wonder she was able to do so well. She had a VERY strong L1 language. Perhaps if she'd been born hoh her academic experiance would have been drasticly different. Oh, and I don't think that posties nessarily NEED ASL/Deaf culture. They are indeed "hearing impaired"........they are hearing and function without hearing.....they don't see each other as "Seeing" people. They're more like late deafened people rather then pediatric dhh population.

If you read my post you should find your answer. REad and comprehend. You are assuming that my daughter had perfectly normal hearing up until she was in 4th grade? Geeze. No she failed her hearing test in school again, probably for the 4th year in a row, I really don't remember but since she was getteing older decided it was time to find out if it was enough to cause problems as she went into higher grades where the teachers can change by the class. so I finally decided to go to an ent and see what was going on. I suppose that I should also tell you the the class size in each classroom in our home district was about 20 kids with a total of 40 per class on average. Everyone basically knows everyone else. Friendships last throughout you school years (kinda like I think they do at deaf schools for those who attend the same one k-12) She had help from her friends. Her friends included her. Her friends repeated things for her. She was lucky that her teachers had the type of voice that carried well enough for her to hear them....until she got her 4th grade teacher. And so on and so on and so on. (She had some of the same teachers I did in high school) It really was a small school. I do feel for kids now adays who make friends in elementry then get split from them in middle school and might find them in the high school they go to or they might not.

Alot of how successful you are in a classroom does depend on your ablitly to understand the reading material and the ability to process enough of the verbal part. She was very good at both.

Ahhh, now we get into the not deaf enough blah blah blah. You could hear when you were learning to speak blah blah blah Now deaf dyke if children with Ci's can be compared to a child with mild hearing loss is the child with mild hearing loss concidered to be hoh, according to you that child is 'only' hoh and thus won't have any problems? , that child is hearing and function without hearing? Nothing like deciding which little slot everyone needs to be placed in. Sorry I'm deaf, my daughter is deaf. I'm hoh if that's what you want to call it. She's hearing if that's what you want to call it. But like you she doesn't hear much without her HA's. Like you neither do I.

Why don't we continue to complain about those NOT DEAF ENOUGH. Isn't this one of the things that turns people off to the Deaf community, the people like you who want to say they aren't deaf enough. Geeze.

Have a nice night.

 

[kokonut]

If you are going to involve him in a research project, it will be necessary to have him sign a consent form. And, I would suggest that you are testing your hypothesis, not your theory. Theory is what is arrived at once a null hypothesis has been unsupported through experimentation and replication.

Is your research project receiving academic support?

No. It's my own doing. My own personal observations. This has been going on for years. I am still testing my own theory which means I have done this and nothing has yet been shown opposite of what I've believed originally (ie my "hypothesis" if you want to get in that sort of thing). This isn't a controlled experiment nor am I attempting at a scientific proof of rigid nature, mind you. But what I've seen so far over the years is that word discrimination correlates well in the ability on the ease of conversation over the phone. Purely academic on my own part.

If you don't want to divulge, fine. Have him call me, if he so decides to, and we'll both talk about audiograms, science, or other talks like how he's doing in college and so forth. Or am I sensing a bit a reticent on your part?

 

[kokonut]

Semi-sarcastic? It is either sarcastic or it isn't.

Semi-sarcastic.

 

[shel90]

After you made this comment I went to Cloggy's blog to have a look at the video clip you spoke of. Are you talking about the video clip taken in 2005 where she was signing and singing at the same time? That's the only one I could find where she was with her brother. It would make sense if she was looking at her father as he was signing to her? Her brother presumably looked elsewhere because he was going by the speech.

I noticed in the later videos in 2006 where she was singing and talking with no sign she hardly looked at her father but concentrated on some envelope, looked directly at the camera (I bet he had the screen flipped out so she could see herself) and other things. Perhaps then in the first video she was looking at her father because he was signing to her?

That's why I am asking Cloggy...and I made sure I emphasized that I could be wrong and I really cant make judgements based on one video clip but it is something very common with deaf/hoh people. They tend to look at the speaker's face whether they are signing or not. I see that all the time.

 

[Cloggy]

...........I noticed in your video of Lotte, her brother and u sitting on the table. As a deaf person, I notice these things so I dont know if u noticed it..but did u see Lotte looking at u the whole time while her brother still can turn away but still stay in the conversations. I could be wrong but it looked like Lotte was concentrating on hearing what u were saying to her. I cant base my judgement solely on one video itself but that was what I saw so..that's typical of many people with hearing loss...they have to concentrate hard to "hear". .........
Can u imagine a child having to do that all day at school? That can wear a person out.

You're 100% right, and we noticed.
Now, you were looking at a girl that just learend to hear, just started with her CI. (1 year at that time.)

HAve you ever looked at small children that learn to speak. They do the same.

And of course she is relying on the visual information. She did that for 3 years when we took the video. And she's still doing that.

But.... she also has a conversation from another room with us. She hears well with music in the room.

And regarding your last comment... she does not take off her CI because of too much input. She takes them off when she goes to sleep, and put's them on in the morning.... and when they fall off, stop working etc... she'll make sure that it is fixed. By herself or she'll get help, but she wants to hear....

Now, I agree that the concentration you need, and many other deaf/hoh people to follow a conversation is tiring. My mother-in-law had the same problem, and when she started to use hearing-aids, she was less tired as well...
Now imagine, you, with all your abilities of recognising what people say, and then having much better hearing with CI.... wouldn't that make you less tired....

Exactly!

 

[shel90]

You're 100% right, and we noticed.
Now, you were looking at a girl that just learend to hear, just started with her CI. (1 year at that time.)

HAve you ever looked at small children that learn to speak. They do the same.

And of course she is relying on the visual information. She did that for 3 years when we took the video. And she's still doing that.

But.... she also has a conversation from another room with us. She hears well with music in the room.

And regarding your last comment... she does not take off her CI because of too much input. She takes them off when she goes to sleep, and put's them on in the morning.... and when they fall off, stop working etc... she'll make sure that it is fixed. By herself or she'll get help, but she wants to hear....

Now, I agree that the concentration you need, and many other deaf/hoh people to follow a conversation is tiring. My mother-in-law had the same problem, and when she started to use hearing-aids, she was less tired as well...
Now imagine, you, with all your abilities of recognising what people say, and then having much better hearing with CI.... wouldn't that make you less tired....

Exactly!

That works for u but for me, having ASL was the help because I am not as tired anymore since I dont need to be in an spoken environment 24/7 like before. Nice to have a balance of both so it is not an issue with me anymore.

I dont feel a need to get a CI unless they become like HAs..no surgery involved. That way I can give them a try to see if I like them or not just like I did with digitals. That's me...not saying that others are the same too.

Oh..want to add..thanks for answering my question. Glad that things are going well with Lotte.

 

[Cloggy]

....... Perhaps then in the first video she was looking at her father because he was signing to her?

Before she had CI we would sign the songs before she went to sleep, and when she got CI we still signed it, to make her combine the speech/sounds with the signs..
And look at the difference between the video's... only a couple of months apart....

 

[jillio]

No. It's my own doing. My own personal observations. This has been going on for years. I am still testing my own theory which means I have done this and nothing has yet been shown opposite of what I've believed originally (ie my "hypothesis" if you want to get in that sort of thing). This isn't a controlled experiment nor am I attempting at a scientific proof of rigid nature, mind you. But what I've seen so far over the years is that word discrimination correlates well in the ability on the ease of conversation over the phone. Purely academic on my own part.

If you don't want to divulge, fine. Have him call me, if he so decides to, and we'll both talk about audiograms, science, or other talks like how he's doing in college and so forth. Or am I sensing a bit a reticent on your part?

And unless you have tested your hypothesis under controlled conditions, you are unable to formulate theory. I would think a scholar of rhetoric would know the difference and use the terms appropriately.

Unless you have done correlation testing and statistical analysis, you cannot claim to have found correlation. The best that you can claim to be doing is observation. That is hardly objective.

No reticence on my part. I'm simply trying to gain the information necessary to evaluate your ability to make the judgements you are attempting to make.

 

[R2D2]

Now, I agree that the concentration you need, and many other deaf/hoh people to follow a conversation is tiring. My mother-in-law had the same problem, and when she started to use hearing-aids, she was less tired as well...
Now imagine, you, with all your abilities of recognising what people say, and then having much better hearing with CI.... wouldn't that make you less tired....

Yep. Apart from being able to hear more with my CI, that was the other huge difference that I noticed. I had a LOT more energy than before due to not having to concentrate as much and it meant that I could do a lot more and go for longer.

I think as Shel mentioned, heavy immersion in ASL would be another possible strategy to conserve on energy, but it would only work well if you were lucky enough to be able to get a job in the deaf industry, where many people could sign with you. Unfortunately, the deaf industry is not big enough for every deaf person to be able to work there. So that would have to be considered.

 

[shel90]

Yep. Apart from being able to hear more with my CI, that was the other huge difference that I noticed. I had a LOT more energy than before due to not having to concentrate as much and it meant that I could do a lot more and go for longer.

I think as Shel mentioned, heavy immersion in ASL would be another possible strategy to conserve on energy, but it would only work well if you were lucky enough to be able to get a job in the deaf industry, where many people could sign with you. Unfortunately, the deaf industry is not big enough for every deaf person to be able to work there. So that would have to be considered.

For deaf adults, it is none of my business what they want to use. I am concerned with deaf children who are in the formative years of language development.

However, many of my friends dont work in signing environments cuz not all work at where I work but they have expressed the need to have a balance of ASL and spoken language so they wont feel the need to work hard at understanding everyone 24/7. My husband signs in SEE and uses some spoken English when he doesnt know the sign for something so I work harder with communication when I am at home.

 

[R2D2]

However, many of my friends dont work in signing environments cuz not all work at where I work but they have expressed the need to have a balance of ASL and spoken language so they wont feel the need to work hard at understanding everyone 24/7. My husband signs in SEE and uses some spoken English when he doesnt know the sign for something so I work harder with communication when I am at home.

The thing is though if you are in full time work in a non signing environment, that is a significant proportion of the day and your lifetime. I reckon that prior to my CI and after my hearing loss significantly decreased, had I gone to work in a non-signing environment during the day, I would have been too exhausted to go out to deaf social events in the evening to balance it out. That's how tired I was. Heck, I would even have to take a lie down after taking my daughter to swimming lessons and then chatting to the lady sitting next to me whose son was in my daughter's swimming class. I couldn't exactly ignore her and I do like meeting new people.

The CI changed that for me. I hear what you are saying about getting a balance and I agree with you but as someone who has found more work opportunities in the hearing world, it is really great to have the CI which has taken a lot of the hard work out of concentrating when interacting with hearing people, for me.

Being able to get a job in the deaf industry is not a given and with falling numbers of deaf children being born, that sector may get smaller in the future. I remember when I first arrived in Australia, I applied for a job at a deaf and blind school as a management accountant. I had the right formal qualifications (chartered institute of management accountants) and even had close industry experience in the UK but I did not even get called to interview. I suspect they already had someone lined up or wanted a hearing person who was fluent with the phone but of course you can't prove something like that. I've just had more luck in the hearing sector.

Those are just my own personal experiences. I have to work with the givens in my own situation. Other people might not get quite as tired as me in a non signing environment without a CI and still others are able to get jobs in signing environments.

 

[kokonut]

Unless you have done correlation testing and statistical analysis, you cannot claim to have found correlation. The best that you can claim to be doing is observation. That is hardly objective.

There is a correlation and I have looked into it but I have not bother getting into these best fit correlation or regression analyses. Yet that is what I do in my line of work using climatic data and watershed conditions on my forest since I am the forest hydrologist for the Lincoln National Forest. I even do applied geostatistics when I do my groundwater contamination analysis on my own time since my graduate background is in hydrogeology.

Enough of that. Now, I have already told you. This is based purely on my observational points of view using my experience and knowledge going back 20 years when I first met deaf/hoh students at Gallaudet University. Like I said, I'm not doing this to perform any rigorous statistical approaches. This is more subjective than objective, if any. All I need to do is talk to hoh people, which I have done countless times, and I can immediately tell just how well they can converse and understand the conversations. Oftentimes it turns out to be a bit frustrating enough for me to bang my head on the table because they couldn't get all the words. Unlike whenever I talk and converse over the phone with hearing people in my line of work with coworkers, district rangers, other agencies, the public and so on.

Your response to me still indicates that you are reticent or even protective on giving out additional information by giving me this bit of spiel on statistical analysis and such. I've already told you this isn't about doing any rigorous, scientific approaches. Yet you keep continuing with this.

Just to make it easier on you have your son call me by writing me via email so we can exchange phone numbers and start talking. But somehow I'll get the feeling that this won't happen.

Let's move on. No need to continue with this discussion.

 

[jillio]

There is a correlation and I have looked into it but I have not bother getting into these best fit correlation or regression analyses. Yet that is what I do in my line of work using climatic data and watershed conditions on my forest since I am the forest hydrologist for the Lincoln National Forest. I even do applied geostatistics when I do my groundwater contamination analysis on my own time since my graduate background is in hydrogeology.

Enough of that. Now, I have already told you. This is based purely on my observational points of view using my experience and knowledge going back 20 years when I first met deaf/hoh students at Gallaudet University. Like I said, I'm not doing this to perform any rigorous statistical approaches. This is more subjective than objective, if any. All I need to do is talk to hoh people, which I have done countless times, and I can immediately tell just how well they can converse and understand the conversations. Oftentimes it turns out to be a bit frustrating enough for me to bang my head on the table because they couldn't get all the words. Unlike whenever I talk and converse over the phone with hearing people in my line of work with coworkers, district rangers, other agencies, the public and so on.

Your response to me still indicates that you are reticent or even protective on giving out additional information by giving me this bit of spiel on statistical analysis and such. I've already told you this isn't about doing any rigorous, scientific approaches. Yet you keep continuing with this.

Just to make it easier on you have your son call me by writing me via email so we can exchange phone numbers and start talking. But somehow I'll get the feeling that this won't happen.

Let's move on. No need to continue with this discussion.

Oh, so you aren't a scholar of rhetoric? And I still say that you cannot claim correlation without statistical analysis. Or without using a random sample, controlling for variables, or stating your independent variables and dependent variables, and your hypthesis, and null hypothesis. You are claiming a research conclusion without doing the research. Just because 2 phenomena seem to appear together does not make a correlation, not does observation create theory without rigourous scientific testing and replication.

If I were reticent about anything, it would be subjecting my son to someone who makes such snap judgements about individuals as you have claimed to make in your post.

If my son chooses to contact you, as I have stated prior, it will be his decision to do so. He is an adult.

 

[deafdyke]

Now deaf dyke if children with Ci's can be compared to a child with mild hearing loss is the child with mild hearing loss concidered to be hoh, according to you that child is 'only' hoh and thus won't have any problems

?
Nope I have NEVER said anything like that! I am NOT one of those "kids with mild losses are more hearing then deaf" folks. THAT was the attitude that caused virtually ALL the problems out there for me.
Experts have pushed that attitude for YEARS, and it hasn't really helped the hoh population as a whole. I'm just saying that the needs of a post or peri (lost while learning language) dhh person are different from someone who has ALWAYS been dhh, that's all.