Could budget cuts in the mainstream lead to increased enrollement at deaf schools?

posts from hell said:
is that the second time you posted that? are you partaking in trolling activity too?
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It is always mean that a hearing person who does not understand our needs as a deaf person struggle in the mainstream school. She or he keep trying to claim that a deaf person can function better in the mainstream school where there are no accommodations or minimum accommodations. They keep on going with what they believe for themselves, not believe us at all. So that is trolling to make us get all rile up as before. You know you have been there a lot. So it is better to ignore then and not listen to their rant about how right they are and we are not right at all. Do we have to struggle trying to explain to them about our deaf experiences in the mainstream schools? It gets tiring, anyway. :roll:
 
Bottesini said:
I can take your point, but it doesn't make it any less annoying to me when people pontificate on subjects they have absolutely no connection to or knowledge of.
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Oh, really? Why is it that anyone who disagrees with you just doesn't know what they are talking about?

Also, your use of 'pontificate' is weak. But nevermind that. I just study language for a living.

:thumb:
 
Bebonang said:
It is always mean that a hearing person who does not understand our needs as a deaf person struggle in the mainstream school. She or he keep trying to claim that a deaf person can function better in the mainstream school where there are no accommodations or minimum accommodations. They keep on going with what they believe for themselves, not believe us at all. So that is trolling to make us get all rile up as before. You know you have been there a lot. So it is better to ignore then and not listen to their rant about how right they are and we are not right at all. Do we have to struggle trying to explain to them about our deaf experiences in the mainstream schools? It gets tiring, anyway. :roll:
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Except I'm not an Oralist. So if you really think that to be the case, you need to work on reading comprehension skills. Since I'm pretty sure you can read well, then you just need to not have knee-jerk reactions.

As for "Do we have to struggle trying to explain to them about our deaf experiences in the mainstream schools?" - that's a pretty harsh statement. Because if you don't explain it to the everyday non hearing world, your education situation will only get worse. Unless you want to completely 100% remove yourself from the hearing world (which is impossible) then yeah, you'll have to be an adult and communicate differences instead of having a temper tantrum.

I'm not even representative of the everyday non hearing world! So if you can't handle my disagreement with Potts, then maybe you should re-evaluate your social skills.

:shock:
 
TheOracle,

Simply put, you're offensive. You come across as a know-it-all.

You're hearing, and you're on a deaf forum, and you pretend to know us.

When we disagree with you it doesn't mean disagree with you for the sake of it. It's because we've lived the life of deaf people which is VASTLY different than any life you've led.

You study language for a living. Good. Glad you're enriching your knowledge. Studying it, however, doesn't equal real-life experience. Not remotely close.

So until you've walked even a minute in our footsteps, criticism, asking us to look at our reading comprehension, and calling us cocky is all entirely unnecessary. Your attitude is a joke.
 
TheOracle,

In the vast near-infinite world of cyberspace, there lies a lone world named AllDeaf.com, occupying Mr. Alex's server, New Jersey, USA, North America, Planet Earth, Alpha Quadrant, Milky Way Galaxy. Like any bars, people come hither and go--both deaf and hearing, domestic and international, colorful skinned people, Potheads, Fizz pop addicts, Poop fanatics, writers, oddballz, catwomen (or catlovers), and a myriad of different people.

But one thing is constant in the world of AllDeaf.com:

Debates on and on forevahhhhh to infinity and beyond
Will it ever asymptotically approach its limit? Will it ever end?
No, no such thing. AllDeaf.com debates will beget the derivatives of numerous similar spools of threads and posts from hell....imitating the behavior of the natural logarithm (x+ 1/x)^x.
Its derivative is always the same as itself, just as the derived threads will eventually be the same as their predecessors.

However, Calvinists/Anal French Puritans and Golden Perverted Linxusers keep trying to delete those endless spools of threads and posts from hell---banishing them to the deep recesses of cyberspace. But alas, posts from hell always keep coming back. Data is never deleted. They always end up somewhere else.

Like the insidious AIDS, AllDeaf.com debates can spawn a multitude of little posts and threads that can continuously ram hard into you hard over and over. Before you know it, you'll be screaming from all of it--Oh the pain! Oh the splintering star-inducing headaches! Oh, the weariness! Oh the AllDeaf.com addict! Oh lalalala!

Just as haters gonna keep hatin' here and there, AllDeaf.com debates gonna keep debatin' here and there. Gotta love 'em anyway. But keep an open-mind anyway.

Hey, how about this? Stuff your ears with cotton balls/ear plugs/thingaminagy you can stuff whatever into your ears, and go deaf for a week to a month in all life settings, work, social, school, etc. See how it goes for you. </friendly jokingly sarcasm n' satire-not meant to induce anger or hostility from anyone. This is only a comical satire I'm trying to write anyway>
 
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How can I come across as a know it all and ask questions at the same time?

If people weren't capable of forming opinions on things they "know nothing of", then how do deaf people assume to know the hearing? How does one study history if they weren't there? How do sociologists study groups otherwise unknown to them? Does this mean that hearing linguists who argue that ASL is a language (which it is) don't know what they're talking about because they are hearing? So I shouldn't believe them? Does this mean Grendel can't make decisions for her daughter because her daughter is deaf and Grendel isn't? Am I allowed to tell you that you know nothing about what's best for children because you aren't a parent? :crazy:

All I've done is bring my life experiences and education into the forum. That's what people do. It's part of the human connection. I would like to believe that humans are intellectual and curious beings, but that isn't always the case. However, it's the "hearies" like me who help the "deafies" like you, because history shows time and time again, it isn't until a majority puts themselves in the shoes of the minority that something changes.

For example, I don't know what it's like to be discriminated against for being deaf (though I do know what it's like to go through life unilaterally deaf) but I do know what it is like to be discriminated against for having epilepsy. I may not like some of the unintended consequences of the ADA, but it doesn't mean that I don't understand the legal components. I may not agree with parents who use oral only, though I can see how they'd be convinced it's the best route. If you can't step out of your own shoes - or ears - for a moment, you're not really productive.

What makes humans so incredible is the fact that we "get smarter" over time. We build on old information to find new information. That's what intellectualism is. Maybe intellectualism isn't your thing? Because if that's the case, then you're no better than the "hearies" who can't for one minute believe that ASL is a real language, or that the deaf aren't stupid, or that English is superior.

:deal:

All I've done is shed light on how some other people may think and why. If you don't understand the whys of things, you'll never be able to change it.

Think of it this way: If your computer has a virus, do you shake it and yell? Sure, but is that productive?
 
P.S. If one constantly takes things I write out of context or twists my words, then I'm going to assume 1) they're just being a dick on purpose or 2) they have poor reading comprehension. I guess some people are just dicks? :dunno2:
 
I have epilepsy. I even had a seizure at 17 that caused a major car accident. I came out of it fine, thank goodness. I didn't drive for a long time after, though. Anyway, do I sing a song and dance about epilepsy? No. I don't go to a epilepsy-related forum and pretend I know all about it.

As for your question "how do deaf people assume to know the hearing?" There's quite a few late-deafened on this forum that once were hearing and became deaf later in life. They know the difference.
 
AlleyCat said:
I have epilepsy. I even had a seizure at 17 that caused a major car accident. I came out of it fine, thank goodness. I didn't drive for a long time after, though. Anyway, do I sing a song and dance about epilepsy? No. I don't go to a epilepsy-related forum and pretend I know all about it.

As for your question "how do deaf people assume to know the hearing?" There's quite a few late-deafened on this forum that once were hearing and became deaf later in life. They know the difference.
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But you don't have to be epileptic to be a neurosurgeon.

And is it just me or are the late-deafened people at AD treated a little differently? Not sure. But it does seem like those who use CI and oral are.

You don't have to agree with my opinion. It doesn't make it any less valid.

I hear SO MANY people say, "Hearies don't understand us!" and "Why don't hearies understand us?" Well, if you want to understand why people don't understand, then you need to look at how and why they think the way they do.

I teach social studies and I work with ESL students. I also study language as I'm a grad student. It doesn't mean I know everything there is to know about history EVER...or that I know 6,000 languages. But it's perfectly valid for me to take what I do know and use it for reason.

I've given many examples of why some hearing people would think a certain way. It doesn't mean I agree with them.

If you get down to the bare bones, I am on par with MOST of ADers here concerning "what's best for" a deaf child in education. But since I disagree with someone about the use of a word, I'm automatically assumed to be a hearing snob who thinks she knows everything.

Your logic is false.
 
I
agree that the mainstream experience isn't ideal, but the School for the Deaf isn't always a perfect fit either. My son falls between the two worlds, as he does have some residual hearing. He has a bilateral severe hearing loss, but with his HA's on and the right environment he can hear a lot of what's being said, although not everything.

We don't have any other placement options, which is unfortunate. I think magnet programs would help children like my son. I think the social aspect of having peers who also have a hearing loss is crucial. Aside from having educators who are actually knowledgeable about deafness. It seems that I am constantly having to educate, and re-educate those surrounding him. Many seem to think that because he can speak well that he doesn't have any challenges.

Hello!! He has a significant hearing loss; and while expressively he does well, receptive language is another story.

I think that the education of DHH individuals should be opened up a bit more. I don't think it should just be the school for the deaf or only mainstream. Somewhere in-between would better serve those who have some residual hearing but still a significant hearing loss.
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Agreed. And if you look at my posting history I do strongly advocate for that type of placement. I really think the gross majority of hoh kids can and would strongly benifit from that sort of setting. I really am amazed that there's not something like that already set up in your area. I know California is very strong with the dhh programs, and even blind classrooms....plus I mean usually in areas where there are Deaf Schools, there are mainstream classrooms set up for the kids who may need more then what the Deaf School can offer. I do have to say that I think that mainstream ed needs to be reformed, so that the only kids who are solotaires, are the ones who can handle it both academicly AND socially. There's been too many kids falling through the cracks in the mainstream. Far too many.
ou are assuming that parents are idiots. You are assuming that deaf schools provide appropriate services. You assume that mainstream programs don't provide supports. In my experience ALL of these assumptions are flatly incorrect.
She has points. Not all deaf schools are adequate. Not all mainstream schools are adequate. Parents have to make choices with what they're given.
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WHAT? No. I did not say that parents are idoits. What I did say is that they tend to be encouraged by hearing administrators to mainstream their kids. Those hearing administrators tend to push the myth that deaf schools/programs are just for profound voice off kids. That way their school district doesn't have to pay out tution and they can get away with providing a FAPE. I realize there's a HUGE variance in Deaf school quality, but you're simply speaking from your experiance with ONE VERY BADLY RESOURCED Deaf School. And you're missing the fact that while, mainstream solotaire (not dhh program) placements can offer MINIMAL accomondations, fighting for MORE then minimal accomondations is FUCKING HELL!!!!
 
TheOracle said:
*can we all just agree that the system sucks and our kids are in trouble?
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Despite popular belief by most hearing parents, Deaf schools are full of people qualified to work and meet deaf children's needs. That is something to be said for.
 
shel90 said:
Despite popular belief by most hearing parents, Deaf schools are full of people qualified to work and meet deaf children's needs. That is something to be said for.
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And despite the popular belief of Deafies, there are plenty of hearing people - teachers and otherwise - who go to the bat for dhh kids in mainstream settings. :p If I had a dhh kid in my class, I'd do whatever I could to accommodate. That's just the stuff of a good teacher. But then again, I teach (or should say taught - I'm at the U this year) ESL and work twice as hard to make sure the content is accessible, so it could be part of my teaching philosophy.

But no, I meant the education system as it's set up.
 
The fact is that schools that receive government funding are legally required to provide whatever supports and services that are necessary for a child to have equal access to the curriculum as their non handicapped peers. So if that means an interpreter, CART, FM system, soundfield or notetakers (among others) they must provide it.
If the school is unwilling, parents don't have to sign the IEP and can file a compliance complaint or for due process. This just requires the parents to have the cajones (did I spell that right?) to stand up to the all mighty SD. Parents are an equal member of the IEP team, even if the administrators don't readily acknowledge that. Parents have the power. They just need to stand up and assert it.
 
CSign said:
Parents are an equal member of the IEP team, even if the administrators don't readily acknowledge that. Parents have the power. They just need to stand up and assert it.
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:gpost:


I have seen so many parents NOT want to participate...it's really sad. Rock on, CSign!
 
I think there can be variance in terms of what is defined as "equal" and in practice what the school defines as "equal" may end up actually being minimum or adequate but not necessarily of the same quality in the reality of the classroom.
Parents have the power only if THEY feel they do. Many factors play into who has the power besides "it's the law".
Mainstream settings in some or many cases already set up the child to fail or to end up feeling "less than" and no amount of mainstream accommodations is going to make it such that the child can start from the same page as peers.
 
Strictly going on the basis that a student has any degree of hearing loss, they will not be accessing the information the same way a hearing student would. Therefore, certain accomodations must be in place.
It is up to the team to determine what accomodations are necessary to provide that student with access to the information. Sure, some districts might fight to provide minimal accomodations, but it's up to the parents to be knowledgeable about what their child needs. If the SD is not providing appropriate accomodations, the parents need to advocate for their child and stand firm.
You will likely come across the gate keepers who will fight tooth and nail, but the fact is if a DHH student is placed in a mainstream setting they have to provide what that child needs.
The fact is, that it is the law. Team members can disagree, but the student isn't able to hear everything that's being said. So if the student needs an interpreter, CART, an FM system or all of the above then they can get it. I'm not saying it's easy, but it can be done.
The law does stand behind students with "special needs" and there is a reason for that. People just need to familiarize themselves with federal education laws, and their states educational laws. With that information they will be better armed, and will feel more confident advocating for their child.
If a student is floundering in a mainstream setting, then it's not the LRE for them.
 
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