Confederate Flag

[Calvin]

This thread is about confederate flag, if you would like to discuss about Gay Flag, please do create another thread.

Thanks

 

[Jiro]

Food for thought:

If the confederate flag has NOTHING to do with racism and is a symbolism for being proud of the South's heritage, why don't we see black southerner's displaying them? Aren't black people a big part of the South? After all, isn't soul food a big part of the Southern cuisine?

(Oh yea.. I think it might have to do with that little painful reminder called slavery.)

 

[Reba]

There were black Confederate soldiers during the war, so it is their heritage also.

It has been estimated that over 65,000 Southern blacks were in the Confederate ranks. Over 13,000 of these, “saw the elephant” also known as meeting the enemy in combat. These Black Confederates included both slave and free. The Confederate Congress did not approve blacks to be officially enlisted as soldiers (except as musicians), until late in the war. But in the ranks it was a different story. Many Confederate officers did not obey the mandates of politicians, they frequently enlisted blacks with the simple criteria, “Will you fight?” Historian Ervin Jordan, explains that “biracial units” were frequently organized “by local Confederate and State militia Commanders in response to immediate threats in the form of Union raids…”. Dr. Leonard Haynes, a African-American professor at Southern University, stated, “When you eliminate the black Confederate soldier, you’ve eliminated the history of the South.”

Black Confederates in the Civil War

 

[shel90]

There were black Confederate soldiers during the war, so it is their heritage also.


Black Confederates in the Civil War

If they fought as slaves, maybe they didnt want to fight the war. I just find it ironic that black people who lived in the south would fight to keep slavery. It doesnt make sense which is why I have a feeling that they were forced to become "soldiers".

 

[Reba]

This past Sunday our family attended a memorial service for two Confederate soldiers who were African-American.

Yes, that's right. Black Confederate soldiers.

The North Carolina Sons of Confederate Veterans Camp 794, “The Columbus County Volunteers,” honored two of Columbus County’s black Confederate soldiers with a grave marker dedication ceremony as a part of Black History Month.

The two men, Sandy Oliver and Joshua Nichols, were honored with about thirty white and black Confederate reenactors, a number of white and black attendees, and the firing of Civil war era cannons in salute to their service to the Confederacy.

The service was at Horace Grove Missionary Baptist Church in Boardman, NC, just off US74 east of Lumberton, NC. The church was packed with both white and black participants, many dressed in period Confederate or old-fashioned dress to honor the occasion.

Several spoke including the church's pastor, Rev. James E. Dockery, Jr., and Sharon Frazer, a descendant of Oliver and Nichols and a member of Horace Grove church who came up with the idea and asked the local SCV camp to help her organize this memorial service.

Another descendant Kendra Tyler then read the known biographies of both veterans to the standing room only crowd. She told us that the two honored soldiers were stationed at Fort Fisher, NC, during the war, the last of the great Confederate Atlantic coastal fortifications to fall to the federals in spring 1865.

Another speaker was Thomas J. Jolly, commander of SCV Camp #794 in Whiteville, NC.

Jolly made remarks of racial reconciliation and the history of the involvement of African-Americans in Confederate service.

Jolly said that larger numbers than most now know, perhaps in the tens of thousands of Americans of African origin, served in the Confederate armed forces during the Uncivil War. He read a long war-era quotation of at least one Confederate officer speaking of the large numbers of black soldiers serving in their ranks.

If that number is correct, then perhaps 1 in 10 Confederate soldiers were black. Certainly a neglected area of history, but an important research topic nearly 150 years after the war.

Also speaking was Marvin Nickolson, a black reenactor dressed in Confederate gray of Battery B, 2nd Regiment, US Colored Light Artillery of Gallivant's Ferry, SC.

Nickolson gave a host of statistics showing the low percentages of the free population in the South -- white, black, and Native American -- which owned slaves, and reasons why a black Southerner would have fought for the Confederate cause.

Nickolson also discussed the hurtful meanings the Confederate battle flag has unfortunately gained for many in the last generation of the civil rights movement.

He explained that while a Southern St. Andrews Cross on the grave of a black soldier may create a conflict of feeling, the flag meant no such thing to the men -- white and black -- who fought under that flag and carried it into battle.

Carlos Sutton, an historian and reenactor from Whiteville, NC, made remarks about blacks and whites then during the war with homes and families in danger, and on that Sunday, as the very different groups gathered in a church in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and the worship of His Name. He got a lot of Amens on that.

A number of observers were present from the United Daughters of the Confederacy, the Sons of Confederate Veterans, and the local NAACP chapter.

An outdoor memorial service then followed with a musket and artillery salute, prayers, and the presentation of a Confederate flag to the 82 year old grandson of Joshua Nichols.

...As I stood talking with folks after the benediction, one younger African American lady said to me, "There is more to the Confederate flag and our history than we have been told."

...The SCV has so far not been able to find either Nichols' or Oiver's names on any official Confederate roster -- because it was illegal for them to serve as soldiers. They have found that Sandy Oliver was at one time owned by a white man named Shep Oliver, but his status during the war is unknown. Joshua Nichols was a free Negro at the time of the war and lived to the age of 110. Nichols' 82 year old grandson knows from him personally that that he was a Confederate soldier at Fort Fisher.

The SCV has so far found that they in fact did both mark the 1910 US Census as Confederate veterans, and while many black North Carolina Confederates received North Carolina pensions for Confederate service, Governor Aycock was opposed to the practice and found bureaucratic procedures to stop it.

For the rest of the story and photos:

Sunday in the South: Black NC Confederate soldiers honored

 

[Foxrac]

If they fought as slaves, maybe they didnt want to fight the war. I just find it ironic that black people who lived in the south would fight to keep slavery. It doesnt make sense which is why I have a feeling that they were forced to become "soldiers".

There's free blacks in CSA too.

 

[Texan Guy]

I recalled that there were some African-Americans doesn't want to change the state flag of Mississippi when the governor of Mississippi proposed to change the state of Mississippi's flag, and the people of Mississippi turned the new flag down plainly.

The Proposed Flag of Mississippi

 

[Reba]

If they fought as slaves, maybe they didnt want to fight the war. I just find it ironic that black people who lived in the south would fight to keep slavery. It doesnt make sense which is why I have a feeling that they were forced to become "soldiers".

Actually, it was just the opposite. Black men wanted to volunteer for the army but it was their masters who objected.

Hd Qs CS Armies
27th March 1865

Lt Gen RS Ewell

Commdg General,
General Lee directs me to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 25th inst: and to say that he much regrets the unwillingness of owners to permit their slaves to enter the service. If the state authorities can do nothing to get those negroes who are willing to join the army, but whose masters refuse their consent, there is no authority to do it at all. What benefit they expect their negroes to be to them, if the enemy occupies the country, it is impossible to say. He hopes you will endeavor to get the assistance of citizens who favor the measure, and bring every influence you can to bear. When a negro is willing, and his master objects, there would be less objection to compulsion, if the state has the authority. It is however of primary importance that the negroes should know that the service is voluntary on their part. As to the name of the troops, the general thinks you cannot do better than consult the men themselves. His only objection to calling them colored troops was that the enemy had selected that designation for theirs. But this has no weight against the choice of the troops and he recommends that they be called colored or if they prefer, they can be called simply Confederate troops or volunteers. Everything should be done to impress them with the responsibility and character of their position, and while of course due respect and subordination should be exacted, they should be so treated as to feel that their obligations are those of any other soldier and their rights and privileges dependent in law & order as obligations upon others as upon theirselves. Harshness and contemptuous or offensive language or conduct to them must be forbidden and they should be made to forget as soon as possible that they were regarded as menials. You will readily understand however how to conciliate their good will & elevate the tone and character of the men....
Very respy.


Your obt. servt.
Chaarles Marshall
Lt. Col & AAG
Hd. Qts. CS Armies

30th March 1865
Lt Gen RS Ewell
Commdg General,

General Lee directs me to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 29th inst: and to say that he regrets very much to learn that owners refuse to allow their slaves to enlist. He deems it of great moment that some of this force should be put in the field as soon as possible, believing that they will remove all doubts as to the expediency of the measure. He regrets it the more in the case of the owners about Richmond, inasmuch as the example would be extremely valuable, and the present posture of military affairs renders it almost certain that if we do not get these men, they will soon be in arms against us, and perhaps relieving white Federal soldiers from guard duty in Richmond. He desires you to press this view upon the owners.
He says that he regards it as very important that immediate steps be taken to put the recruiting in operation, and has so advised the department. He desires to have you placed in general charge of it, if agreeable to you, as he thinks nothing can be accomplished without energetic and intelligent effort by someone who fully appreciates the vital importance of the duty....
Very respy
Your obt servt
Charles Marshall
Lt col & AAG
source: Richards S. Ewell Papers, Manuscript Division, Library of Congress.

Black Confederates in the Civil War

 

[C.C.Sinned]

that is H.K. Edgerton

Black Confederate says he is marching for heritage

OCONEE COUNTY — It’s a sight that elicits a second glance, maybe a third. A black man marching along the S.C. 28 toward Walhalla dressed in Confederate butternut, carrying a Confederate battle flag.

To H.K. Edgerton, however, it’s a march for truth in history as critical as any march for civil rights. Mr. Edgerton’s march Thursday carried him to Oconee County.

When it comes to the role of blacks in the Confederacy, Mr. Edgerton is less than happy about the story.

“This flag has nothing to do with hate,” Mr. Edgerton said of the starred red, white and blue St. Andrew’s Cross battle flag he carried. “It’s the flag of Southern heritage, black and white.”

The 58-year-old former head of the NAACP chapter in Asheville left his city Oct. 20 to recreate the 1,600-mile “March across Dixie” in which he tramped to Austin, Tex., in 2002. He marched specifically to protest the removal of plaques honoring the Confederacy from the Texas statehouse.

The march, however, became a personal odyssey to raise awareness of blacks’ role in Confederate history and to highlight what he called “the wholesale and deliberate destruction of the positive aspects of Southern history by self-serving politicians and the media.”

This time, he will not be marching the whole way, but will make a series marches along his 2002 route.

He marched into Clemson Tuesday. He expects to reach Austin on Dec. 17.

“I wish I could report that after five years all my suffering had been vindicated,” Mr. Edgerton said. “But it hasn’t. Not when you have organizations like NASCAR that have banned our flag.”

Brian France, chief executive officer of that racing organization, banned the flag in 2006 from any official NASCAR use or on any licensed product. Separating NASCAR from the Confederate flag, with its racist associations, he said, was necessary to increase the sport’s popularity among minorities and women.

It is not from blacks that he draws the most fire for his stance, Mr. Edgerton said, but from whites.

“Northern white people,” he said.

Mr. Edgerton is president of Southern Heritage 411, an activist group whose Web site describes it as committed to revealing “the truth of the War for Southern Independence with particular emphasis on the contributions black people made to support the South in its struggle for independence.”

Beverly Jenkins, president of the local chapter of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, said Mr. Edgerton’s visit to Oconee County resurrected unpleasant associations.

“You can’t stop people from marching like that, but that just brings back old memories of the (Ku Klux Klan),” she said.

Mr. Edgerton’s next stop is today in Toccoa, Ga

source

Southern Heritage 411

 

[Liebling:-)))]

If they fought as slaves, maybe they didnt want to fight the war. I just find it ironic that black people who lived in the south would fight to keep slavery. It doesnt make sense which is why I have a feeling that they were forced to become "soldiers".

Actually, they (white people) said to them (black people) that they will get freedom, no more slavery if they want to fight for them. You know that black people hate slavery and want freedom that´s why they have to fight for white people to get freedom.

 

[Reba]

Actually, they (white people) said to them (black people) that they will get freedom, no more slavery if they want to fight for them. You know that black people hate slavery and want freedom that´s why they have to fight for white people to get freedom.

Source please.

What about the freed black men who joined the Confederate army? They didn't "have to fight for white people to get freedom."

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Source please.

What about the freed black men who joined the Confederate army? They didn't "have to fight for white people to get freedom."

I learn those history from school. We (Europeans) know those history for a long time.

The white people offered black people freedom if they want to fight for them because white people know black people´s dream for freedom.

 

[Reba]

I learn those history from school. We (Europeans) know those history for a long time.

The white people offered black people freedom if they want to fight for them because white people know black people´s dream for freedom.

Did you read my links? Those are historical facts. Do you think Europeans know more about American history than the Americans who experienced it?

You didn't answer my question about the freedmen who voluntarily joined the Confederate forces.

 

[Jiro]

I learn those history from school. We (Europeans) know those history for a long time.

The white people offered black people freedom if they want to fight for them because white people know black people´s dream for freedom.

that's one small reason out of several reasons.

 

[Reba]

The 1st Louisiana Native Guards

In May 1861, Governor Thomas O. Moore of Louisiana issued a proclamation providing for the enrollment of free blacks in an all-black regiment with some black officers. By early 1862, nearly 3000 men had joined this regiment and other nearby units around New Orleans. Their officers were skilled tradesmen, craftsmen, and even a few slave owners. There were several sets of fathers and sons and sets of brothers in this regiment, and “all the males in the large Duphart family were members” (Rollins, 1994, pages 22-23). Black officers included:



Captain Noel Bachus, 40, a carpenter and landowner;

Captain Michael Duphart, a 62-year old wealthy shoemaker, and

Lt. Andre Cailloux, a cigar maker and boxer.



The 1st Louisiana Native Guards was a 1307 man regiment with some black officers. It included many of the leading individuals in the New Orleans black community. Like most Southern militia regiments early in the war, they provided their own arms, and uniforms. They spent the greater part of their Confederate service as Provost Guards, although there is some indication that part of the regiment saw action at Fort Jackson during the New Orleans campaign (Official Records, I, 6, 858).


Black Louisianans played a significant part in Louisiana’s military history ever since the beginning of settlement. They fought for, and against, the French, the Spanish, the English, as well as with Andrew Jackson in the Battle of New Orleans in 1815. By late 1861, about 3000 black Louisianans were enrolled in state troops and militia organizations, in the state, in service to the Confederate cause (Rollins, 1994, 22; 167-168).

Five Units of Confederate Blacks in Mobile, Alabama

Black Southerners in Mobile, Alabama took part in the defense of that city. In early 1862 a citizen wrote to the Government that he could organize a regiment of Creoles – a term for people of mixed blood—he wrote “they are as true to the South as the pure white race. I can raise [a regiment] in a few days.” Black confederates were already organized and working on the city’s defenses by early 1862, and in November 1862, the state legislature of Alabama passed an act authorizing the raising of troops of “mixed blood … commonly known as Creoles” for the defense of the city. Major General Dabney Maury had written to the Adjutant General of the Confederacy, asking to enlist Creoles in Confederate service as artillerymen in the defense of Mobile. In August of 1864, the Confederate commander of Mobile formed a unit of cavalry with some blacks in it, and in October he ordered the city to enlist Creoles and free blacks; five different units of black troops were active in Mobile (Rollins, 1994, pp. 25-26).

Did Blacks Serve in the Confederate Army as Soldiers

 

[Reba]

While free black men may have been accepted into the Confederate Army, the question of allowing slaves to enlist was another matter.

Black soldiers with the Confederacy

 

[Texan Guy]

Actually, they (white people) said to them (black people) that they will get freedom, no more slavery if they want to fight for them. You know that black people hate slavery and want freedom that´s why they have to fight for white people to get freedom.

What? How the $%#& did you know that? Wanna come and tell that to those proudly Confederate heritage African-Americans living in the southerner states to see how smart are you on American Civil War?

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Did you read my links?

Those are historical facts.

Yes, I have... Did you read anything from Black history´s side ?

Do you think Europeans know more about American history than the Americans who experienced it?

Huh? I am not here to make debate but simple quoted to explain Shel90 and answered your question where I get it from.

I´m sorry if you feel being offensive or insult by European´s knowledge over American history.

Are you saying that you as an American experienced in Civil War and black slavery time or collect Civil War survivors´ experience in real life?

Okay, I am willing to withdraw from this thread to aviod any argument to respect Americans if you or some of you feel being insult/offensive by European over American History.

You didn't answer my question about the freedmen who voluntarily joined the Confederate forces.

Sorry, I overlooked your question. Here is my answer to your question.

They (freed black men) joined voluntarily because they loyal to their master and love country.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

What? How the $%#& did you know that? Wanna come and tell that to those proudly Confederate heritage African-Americans living in the southerner states to see how smart are you on American Civil War?

Excuse me, I thought I am free to share my knowledge over American history here.

Okay, I´m sorry if you feel being offensive/insult by European´s knowledge over American History because you don´t like that Europeans know about American history. I am willing to withdraw from this thread to leave you all alone...

*shake my head *

 

[Jiro]

Yes, I have... Did you read Black history link?

Huh? I am not here to make debate but simple quoted to explain Shel90 and answered your question where I get it from.

I´m sorry if you feel being offensive or insult by European´s knowledge over American history.

Are you saying that you experienced in Civil War and black slavery time or collect Civil War survivors´ experience in real life?

Okay, I am willing to withdraw from this thread to aviod any argument to respect Americans if you or some of you feel being insult/offensive by European over American History.

Sorry, I overlooked your question. Here is my answer to your question.

They (freed black men) joined voluntarily because they loyal to their master and love country.

Excuse me, I thought I am free to share my knowledge over American history here.

Okay, I´m sorry if you feel being offensive/insult by European´s knowledge over American History. I am willing to withdraw from this thread to leave you all alone...

no no don't leave. it is perfectly fine for you to share what you know about our American Black History with us but you have to understand that many of us (except me) here ARE part of the history. If "They (freed black men) joined voluntarily because they loyal to their master and love country." is what you learned from your history book, then listen to us. We are TEACHING you what we know but you are teaching us and telling us about Black History in America. What you learned in the history book is largely different from what we experienced/know.

In case you didn't know - lot of us in here (except me) have parents & grandparents & ancestors who were part of Civil War and MLK-era. Our American Presidents' ancestors were part of it too. and we celebrate Black History once a year.