Cochlear decison

[deafskeptic]

if you were deaf like us, you wouldn't find it surprising at all. how can we talk about something if we don't refer to the term that started the discussion? that's called whitewashing and denial. It's best to confront it head on instead of pretending it doesn't exist by not using terms that hearing people do use.

It's not up to you to decide what's offensive for deaf people to quote terms used to describe deaf people.

 

[Mountain Man]

You said that "oral failures" are more common than experts admit and that "oral failure" as you see it is a term for "deaf children who never learn effective verbal communication." I think that considering someone an "oral failure" just because he or she can't or won't use verbal communication effectively, however you measure that, is a pretty unfortunate view, and I'm surprised to see that come from someone like you, who -- I thought -- views ASL as an equal to English.

You've really misunderstood what I was getting at, and I'm honestly not sure if it's a genuine misunderstanding or if you're just trying to stir the pot. After seeing that other posters understood my point perfectly, I'm beginning to suspect the latter, especially in light of your desire to keep beating the drum after being corrected several times.

 

[Mountain Man]

if you were deaf like us, you wouldn't find it surprising at all.

For the record, I'm not Deaf, but I appreciate the compliment.

 

[Mountain Man]

So to speak up for myself, I don't like the term oral failure slung around , anymore than I would like deaf and dumb.

The point is that any parent who implants their child with the goal of their child seamlessly integrating with hearing culture should be aware of the possibility that their child will be considered a "failure" by the very community they want them to be a part of. I used the term "oral failure" not because I agree with the classification but to express the mindset of those on the other side of this debate. It's an ugly truth, but a truth nonetheless.

 

[Mountain Man]

yes i have realized that they are very visible, but were not trying to hide the fact that he is deaf...

Then he will be discriminated against and ostracized with or without implants. So now the question is whether or not implants are really in the child's best interest.

 

[posts from hell]

You've really misunderstood what I was getting at, and I'm honestly not sure if it's a genuine misunderstanding or if you're just trying to stir the pot. After seeing that other posters understood my point perfectly, I'm beginning to suspect the latter, especially in light of your desire to keep beating the drum after being corrected several times.

Whoooo... Someone else that says the exact same thing I said the past few weeks.

 

[rick48]

his father does not sign. he doesnt use asl or anything. we learned to talk to him using our own sign language almost like drawing out what we are trying to cimmunicate to him .. unfortunately while he was growing up there were any deaf schools in his area nor could his parents afford getting him to a place that did

cv,

I am not certain from your posts exactly what language your cousin is currently being exposed to but what is an equally important component of the implant decision is what takes places after he receives his implant. To help maximize the benefits of the cochlear implant some form of oral language immersion will be needed.

Do not be put off by the scare tactics of "years of intensive speech therapy" as that is not the norm. Grendel has already indicated that her daughter does not even receive formal speech therapy and in our case our daughter started out with three hours a week of one-on-one therapy with two hours per week of group play all of which occurred in a playful non-formal or drill like environment. By the time she started pre-school it was reduced to one hour a week and gradually went to an hour every two weeks, three weeks, no summers etc until it stopped at the end of 11th grade. Also understand that she, like most other deaf children born to hearing parents would have required the same amount of time and therapy to learn a manual language.

In my years being exposed to children with cochlear implants and their families, I have seen many different approaches to developing spoken language through the use of a cochlear implant and it has led me to the belief that there is no one right or correct way to raise a deaf child because they, as well as their families, are all unique. However, the one constant is at least one dedicated and caring parent who is actively involved in their child's life and development.

Again, best wishes to you and your cousin on whatever path you choose.
Rick

 

[drphil]

Again wise words from experience from Rick 48.

Implanted A B Harmony activated Aug/07

 

[rick48]

Thanks Dr. Phil.

Just trying to dispel the notion that speech therapy always equates with drill and a structured format. Our s&L therapist had the biggest collection of games and toys one could imagine and my wife would use trips to places like the beach and to the zoo to provide wonderful and fun experiences along with the opportunity to immerse our daughter in language.

Rick

 

[AlleyCat]

Do not be put off by the scare tactics of "years of intensive speech therapy"

How interesting you would use that choice of words. Do we not have another thread going on right now in which Coolspyergirl would discuss how tired she is of speech therapy (after 15 years of it) and she has a CI.

I like that she can write from her own experience, and not of that of a biased parent who doesn't actually experience the speech therapy themselves.

 

[Mountain Man]

Do not be put off by the scare tactics of "years of intensive speech therapy" as that is not the norm. Grendel has already indicated that her daughter does not even receive formal speech therapy...

It's not a scare tactic. It's the truth, and anybody who tries to downplay the necessity of speech therapy for implanted children is giving bad advice. As has already been pointed out, Grendel's daughter is a rare exception to the point of almost being unique.

It's also worth pointing out that "speech therapy" means more than formal visits to a therapist and include the intensive work that goes on at home between child and parent, so your anecdotes of attending therapy only a few hours a week do not paint a realistic picture.

Also understand that she, like most other deaf children born to hearing parents would have required the same amount of time and therapy to learn a manual language.

I'm not sure you understand what language therapy really is. It's only required when a child does not have natural access to or has difficulty producing language. In the case of a typical Deaf child, if they are immersed in a signing environment then they will naturally acquire language with no therapy required. The only reason they would need therapy is if their language needs were not addressed early in their development (which, unfortunately, is often the case with Deaf children born to hearing parents).

The reason speech therapy is generally necessary for those with cochlear implants is because implants do not provide a natural access to spoken language. The child has to be taught and trained how to "hear" and how to process speech sounds and produce them himself.

 

[Beach girl]

How long does it take to learn and then become fluent in ASL?

 

[DeafCaroline]

Thanks Dr. Phil.

Just trying to dispel the notion that speech therapy always equates with drill and a structured format. Our s&L therapist had the biggest collection of games and toys one could imagine and my wife would use trips to places like the beach and to the zoo to provide wonderful and fun experiences along with the opportunity to immerse our daughter in language.

Rick

My speech therapist had a roomful of toys to make speech therapy more "fun". The toys were fun, the speech therapy wasn't.

My mother did the same, take me places to open me up to the wonderful world of language. Translation: more opportunities to drill more speech therapy. This is a "ty-ra-no-saur-us. Can you say ty-ran-no-saur-us? Repeat after me - ty....ran...no...saur...us. Almost, you nearly got it, say it again, ty-ran-no-saur-us. C'mon, I know you can do it, say it again. Good! Now this is a bron-to-saur-us...can you say it? Ignore those kids looking at you. Forget about them, now c'mon - say brontosaurus..." - ad nauseum.

And I would oblige because it was so obvious my mother was trying hard and as much as I would have just rather read the info about the dinosaurs instead of being speech-therapized, especially in public (that's a major no no in my book - never never never ever correct a deaf child's speech in public), I went along with it to make her happy otherwise I would have to deal with a disappointed mother for the rest of the day. Life was already hard and stressful enough as it was.

I don't think hearing parents know how much their kids do want to please them and would comply for that reason no matter what their own private feelings were.

 

[faire_jour]

Wirelessly posted

Do not be put off by the scare tactics of "years of intensive speech therapy" as that is not the norm. Grendel has already indicated that her daughter does not even receive formal speech therapy...

It's not a scare tactic. It's the truth, and anybody who tries to downplay the necessity of speech therapy for implanted children is giving bad advice. As has already been pointed out, Grendel's daughter is a rare exception to the point of almost being unique.

It's also worth pointing out that "speech therapy" means more than formal visits to a therapist and include the intensive work that goes on at home between child and parent, so your anecdotes of attending therapy only a few hours a week do not paint a realistic picture.

Also understand that she, like most other deaf children born to hearing parents would have required the same amount of time and therapy to learn a manual language.

I'm not sure you understand what language therapy really is. It's only required when a child does not have natural access to or has difficulty producing language. In the case of a typical Deaf child, if they are immersed in a signing environment then they will naturally acquire language with no therapy required. The only reason they would need therapy is if their language needs were not addressed early in their development (which, unfortunately, is often the case with Deaf children born to hearing parents).

The reason speech therapy is generally necessary for those with cochlear implants is because implants do not provide a natural access to spoken language. The child has to be taught and trained how to "hear" and how to process speech sounds and produce them himself.

grendel's child is not unique at all. I know several families who chose not to do formal speech therapy. Their children did early intervention in their home and the parents just talked and talked. They were age appropriate with language and mainstreamed by preschool. One family has a 15 year old now and the other a 10 and 7 year old.

 

[faire_jour]

Wirelessly posted

How long does it take to learn and then become fluent in ASL?

i would say 3 to 5 years, like any language.

 

[Mountain Man]

Just trying to dispel the notion that speech therapy always equates with drill and a structured format. Our s&L therapist had the biggest collection of games and toys one could imagine and my wife would use trips to places like the beach and to the zoo to provide wonderful and fun experiences along with the opportunity to immerse our daughter in language.

Even games and fun outings can be part of an intensive speech therapy regimen, but to suggest that it's nothing but games and fun outings is, again, very misleading.

 

[DeafCaroline]

Wirelessly posted
grendel's child is not unique at all. I know several families who chose not to do formal speech therapy. Their children did early intervention in their home and the parents just talked and talked. They were age appropriate with language and mainstreamed by preschool. One family has a 15 year old now and the other a 10 and 7 year old.

So you're saying it's a common occurrence that no speech therapy is required for kids implanted young?

 

[faire_jour]

Wirelessly posted

Thanks Dr. Phil.

Just trying to dispel the notion that speech therapy always equates with drill and a structured format. Our s&L therapist had the biggest collection of games and toys one could imagine and my wife would use trips to places like the beach and to the zoo to provide wonderful and fun experiences along with the opportunity to immerse our daughter in language.

Rick

My speech therapist had a roomful of toys to make speech therapy more "fun". The toys were fun, the speech therapy wasn't.

My mother did the same, take me places to open me up to the wonderful world of language. Translation: more opportunities to drill more speech therapy. This is a "ty-ra-no-saur-us. Can you say ty-ran-no-saur-us? Repeat after me - ty....ran...no...saur...us. Almost, you nearly got it, say it again, ty-ran-no-saur-us. C'mon, I know you can do it, say it again. Good! Now this is a bron-to-saur-us...can you say it? Ignore those kids looking at you. Forget about them, now c'mon - say brontosaurus..." - ad nauseum.

And I would oblige because it was so obvious my mother was trying hard and as much as I would have just rather read the info about the dinosaurs instead of being speech-therapized, especially in public (that's a major no no in my book - never never never ever correct a deaf child's speech in public), I went along with it to make her happy otherwise I would have to deal with a disappointed mother for the rest of the day. Life was already hard and stressful enough as it was.

I don't think hearing parents know how much their kids do want to please them and would comply for that reason no matter what their own private feelings were.

and that is not how therapy is done for young children today. You read books, tell stories and play. It is not drill.

one speech therpy session for my daughter when she was young was reading "brown bear, brown bear, what do you see" and then having her make the book herself and then having her "read" it back. It targeted auditory comprehension of two word phrases (her listening to the therapist say what was next and understanding and repeating it back.)

that is just the first example i came up with. There are many others. The point of therapy with young ci kids is learning language, not articulation. Most kids implanted young hear well enough to develop great artic without focus on it.

 

[jillio]

Wirelessly posted



i would say 3 to 5 years, like any language.

Actually 3 to 5 years to become proficient. That is quite different from fluent. Fluency takes many more years. And that 3-5 year estimate for proficiency is based on an individual that has a native L1 language so they are able to transfer those skills to the learning of another language.

For a child exposed to ASL from birth, fluency will be obtained at the same rate that a hearing child obtains fluency in a spoken language.

It seems to be a common mistake around here for proficiency to be mistaken for fluency. They are not one and the same and the have different linguistic and cognitive implications.

 

[DeafCaroline]

Wirelessly posted



and that is not how therapy is done for young children today. You read books, tell stories and play. It is not drill.

one speech therpy session for my daughter when she was young was reading "brown bear, brown bear, what do you see" and then having her make the book herself and then having her "read" it back. It targeted auditory comprehension of two word phrases (her listening to the therapist say what was next and understanding and repeating it back.)

that is just the first example i came up with. There are many others. The point of therapy with young ci kids is learning language, not articulation. Most kids implanted young hear well enough to develop great artic without focus on it.

so, there's no need to teach speech articulation to most kids implanted young? You're saying most kids implanted young can learn to speak very well without any speech therapy in speech articulation?