CI--Deaf or Hearing?

[Miss-Delectable]

I have no idea what CASE is!

SEE is practically extinct in deaf education as is cued speech over here.

 

[dogmom]

I see what Bott, DC, Shel and others are saying. I agree.

for me, I see this basically as: who is empowered and why?

ASL-Deaf-education-empower

MCE-deaf-loss of education/struggle-disenfranchise


there are many threads that I don't post much or at all because I do not have the knowledge, experience or understanding to post there.

and I defer to the Deaf here because my "voice", my privilege out in the "world" there, is already perceived. I know damn well I have hearing privilege as well as white privilege, no matter how I may feel inside, how I see/understand things <or don't>, or how things that happen still affect me because I AM on the outside looking in most of the time. But average public doesn't know that. And I realize that THAT affects me too.

this is a Deaf forum, first. I honor that.

 

[deafskeptic]

I see what Bott, DC, Shel and others are saying. I agree.

for me, I see this basically as: who is empowered and why?

ASL-Deaf-education-empower

MCE-deaf-loss of education/struggle-disenfranchise


there are many threads that I don't post much or at all because I do not have the knowledge, experience or understanding to post there.

and I defer to the Deaf here because my "voice", my privilege out in the "world" there, is already perceived. I know damn well I have hearing privilege as well as white privilege, no matter how I may feel inside, how I see/understand things <or don't>, or how things that happen still affect me because I AM on the outside looking in most of the time. But average public doesn't know that. And I realize that THAT affects me too.

this is a Deaf forum, first. I honor that.

Nod. I didn't post School for the Deaf denies deaf child with Down Syndrome placement thread except to comment on what happens when a person is placed in a program that is not suitiable for them simply because I'm not familiar with how the process is done with placing deaf with multiple disabilites. The OP seemed to think that the rejection occurred simply because the child has Down's syndrome even though it appears that the school turned down the child because they didn't have the resources or the training to deal with Down's Syndrome.

I have seen what happens when a child is placed in a program that is not suited to to their needs so I posted about that because I saw it first hand and this was something I knew.

 

[dogmom]

DS,

I've also seen what happens when a child is in environment that adults think is great and see nothing going wrong from THEIR perspective - but it's such failure and humiliation for the CHILD. Like what you wrote, I know about this.

 

[dogmom]

DS-

 

[AlleyCat]

I've also seen what happens when a child is in environment that adults think is great and see nothing going wrong from THEIR perspective - but it's such failure and humiliation for the CHILD. Like what you wrote, I know about this.

I do too. Good posting.

 

[CSign]

Nod. I didn't post School for the Deaf denies deaf child with Down Syndrome placement thread except to comment on what happens when a person is placed in a program that is not suitiable for them simply because I'm not familiar with how the process is done with placing deaf with multiple disabilites. The OP seemed to think that the rejection occurred simply because the child has Down's syndrome even though it appears that the school turned down the child because they didn't have the resources or the training to deal with Down's Syndrome.

I have seen what happens when a child is placed in a program that is not suited to to their needs so I posted about that because I saw it first hand and this was something I knew.

The school cut off an entire piece of the assessment process. Why? Because of the fact she had DS. That's why they were found out of compliance, and the student did ultimately get placement there in the Special Day Class. The school can and will meet her needs.

 

[CSign]

CASE is NOT a language.

It is a visual mode and representation of English...and a good one, at that.

I would disagree with you on this point that CASE is a good representation of English. If one already has a solid command of English, then I see nothing wrong with using CASE (Conceptually Accurate Signed English- it's really the same thing as PSE, just a more PC name I suppose). However, if it is a child building on their language then a complete language model needs to be used. Whether it be ASL or English, they need a complete representation of a language. Not a schmorgesborg of 2 languages combined, compromising the integrity of both.

 

[CSign]

SEE is NOT a language.

It is a visual mode and representation of English...and a poor one, at that.

When used properly, SEE can be a very good representation of the English language. The challenge is that some people who might use SEE don't expand their knowledge base enough to continue providing a complete language model. At that point, it trends closer to PSE/CASE which can be counterproductive for a young child acquiring language.

 

[shel90]

Well..... you may have noticed that plenty of people writing here DO f***k up the English language to meet their agenda. There is a whole thread on "Grammar" which is basically a tribute to ignorance and why should anyone be concerned about grammar anyway, and so on and so forth.

Do you think grammar and correct usage should be equally as important in ASL as in written English? Or vice versa, perhaps I should say?

What I'm getting at is that just as written English seems to be difficult for some people, perhaps correctly signing ASL is difficult enough for others that they use SEE instead, which apparently is easier. Is that really a problem, or is it just a shortcut that meets a temporary need?

Excuse me...I would never encourage taking English and screwing it up on pruprose. Those who you are referring you DO want to write proper English. Pls don't imply that I support poor grammar for deaf/Deaf people.

This is about the audists who purposefully messed up with ASL to suit their agenda. Now, that's wrong and disrespectful.

 

[Beowulf]

I would disagree with you on this point that CASE is a good representation of English. If one already has a solid command of English, then I see nothing wrong with using CASE (Conceptually Accurate Signed English- it's really the same thing as PSE, just a more PC name I suppose). However, if it is a child building on their language then a complete language model needs to be used. Whether it be ASL or English, they need a complete representation of a language. Not a schmorgesborg of 2 languages combined, compromising the integrity of both.

Isn't that what CASE is, a smorgasbord? English is its own language, and so is ASL. Why not leave well enough alone?

 

[shel90]

english was NOT meant to become a visual language just like ASL will never be a good spoken language. Now, do you get it? What right do hearing people have thinking they can change a signed language like that?

 

[CSign]

Isn't that what CASE is, a smorgasbord? English is its own language, and so is ASL. Why not leave well enough alone?

That's what I was saying. CASE/PSE are not complete models of any language. That's why I wouldn't want a young child acquiring language to have consistent exposure to it. They need a complete language model.

 

[Beowulf]

That's what I was saying. CASE/PSE are not complete models of any language. That's why I wouldn't want a young child acquiring language to have consistent exposure to it. They need a complete language model.

Meh. A child is more capable than an adult in learning more than one language.

 

[deafskeptic]

When used properly, SEE can be a very good representation of the English language. The challenge is that some people who might use SEE don't expand their knowledge base enough to continue providing a complete language model. At that point, it trends closer to PSE/CASE which can be counterproductive for a young child acquiring language.

Only in a very limited way. I would never use it for everyday stuff.

 

[deafskeptic]

english was NOT meant to become a visual language just like ASL will never be a good spoken language. Now, do you get it? What right do hearing people have thinking they can change a signed language like that?

Exactly.

 

[CSign]

english was NOT meant to become a visual language just like ASL will never be a good spoken language. Now, do you get it? What right do hearing people have thinking they can change a signed language like that?

Shel- it's already done. It wasn't created to take away from the Deaf. It was created in an effort to adress the fact that DHH students were having a difficult time mastering English. They didn't create it to replace ASL which absolutely has it's place in this world. Also, I've met a few of the individuals who were a part of the creation of SEE and they are not Audists. They value ASL just as much as they value English.

 

[deafskeptic]

And for the record, I learned SEE before I learned ASL. I had a lot of unlearning to do.

 

[CSign]

Meh. A child is more capable than an adult in learning more than one language.

I never said a child isn't capable of learning more than one language. I said they need a complete language model in whatever language or languages they are to become fluent in.

 

[ash345]

That's what I was saying. CASE/PSE are not complete models of any language. That's why I wouldn't want a young child acquiring language to have consistent exposure to it. They need a complete language model.

I actually agree with you, at least partially. I do think that a young child, or any child for that matter, needs a complete language model, and CASE/PSE are not complete language models. Though, I do not think that SEE is a complete language model either. It seems to me that it is a very incomplete mixture of ASL and spoken english (it uses some ASL signs, but uses English syntax) so I do not see SEE as a complete language model. I think a true complete language model for a dhh child in the US, where I am, would consist of ASL, not SEE, not CASE/PSE. ASL is a complete language model, and allows the child the best opportunities for the future, the most comprehensive language practice. It also allows the child to be able to converse with other dhh people as they get older without hindrance (and this is extremely important for the emotional and mental well being of the individual, let me tell you).