Christians Sue for Right Not to Tolerate Gay Policies

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deafdyke said:
How would that work if the people in the relationship are genderqueer?
Any sexual relationship outside of the marriage between one single man and one single woman is sin.

Is that clear enough?


Reba, how come Christians aren't against commonlaw marriage...
See my answer above.

If a man and a woman are in a legal, state-recognized marriage then what's the problem? If they are just shacking up, that doesn't qualify as a legal marriage.


...or even the marriage of Miss Piggy to Kermit the Frog (in Muppets Take Manhatten)?
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you are just kidding about that. :)
 
Reba said:
Leviticus 18
22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. 23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion. 24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: 25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants. 26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you: 27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled; ) 28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.


Still doesn't say anywhere that that had anything to do with Sodom and Gomorrah. Are you people that dense? I made a very simple request--Find somewhere in the Torah that says Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for homosexuality. You keep citing passages that either have nothing to do with that or aren't even in the Torah.

Reba said:
God also points out that those "abominations" were previously done by men, and their actions resulted in the defiling of the land. Such as, the homosexual sins of the men in Sodom destroyed their city, and left the land contaminated. God refers in the past tense to that event ("...as it spued out the nations that were before you").

That's not said anywhere, though. Sodom and Gomorrah weren't the only nations to exist before the Hebrews... They were only two of a great number.

Reba said:
Leviticus 20
13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Again, God lists the homosexual act as a serious sin.

That's nice?

You might want to read this.

Reba said:
The truth is, it doesn't matter how many times God condemns sins in the Bible. If someone refuses to believe what God says, then it doesn't matter. People, since Adam and Eve, prefer to blame other people, their genes, society, bad translations, politics, etc. No one wants to face responsibility. That's human nature. Adam blamed Eve, and Eve blamed the Serpent, and the Serpent misquoted Scripture. It's the same old game.

That's probably the most ignorant thing I've ever had the displeasure of reading from you. One is biologically required to be what they're genes say they are, whether they like it or not. You can't fight your DNA without trying to change it. Maybe you rationalise your sins, your hate for gay people (heck, we all know you do, you blame Scirpture, blame God), I don't blame others for my sins. But I also believe I am in charge of my own destiny. Unlike you, I do not leave my fate up to the whims of God and society. I leave my fate up to my own choices and the decisions I make.

And that is the difference between a conservative and a liberal. Conservatives believe in self-suppression, liberals believe in self-actualisation.

Reba said:
God set the standard for marriage with Adam and Eve. God was very clear about the marriage relationship. Marriage also represents the type for the relationship between Jesus (Bridegroom) and His church (Bride). Going against that type is a very serious sin.

Um, sure. Christianity bores me, remember?

Reba said:
Taylor wrote, "gay couple", not gay individual. That could also apply to an unmarried hetero couple. Some landlords don't want to support a couple's living in sin. That's not the same as skin color.

Obviously an unmarried black couple is living in sin if they want acceptance and fair treatment in white society. God forbid *those* people should ever be anything but slaves according to Leviticus 25:46.

Obviously biological differences don't matter to you when it comes to gay people (remember, the AMA and APA both say that homosexuality is biological, not psychological or "sinful"), so why aren't you a racist too?

If you're going to hate one group of people for being biologically different from you, why not just hate all people who aren't Reba clones? It's easier that way. Either your a racist and a homophobe, or neither.

Reba said:
Honestly, do landlords even ask someone their sexual preference when they apply for a rental?

Not overtly, but if it's two men wanting to rent a one-bedroom apartment and they aren't related, guesses about their orientations might be made.

Reba said:
Ezekiel 16:49-50
49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. 50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

Yeah. People commit a lot of abominations. What's to say Ezekiel wasn't referring to a different one?

Reba said:
"Homosexuality" doesn't need to be in the same sentence every time the word "Sodom" is used in order to prove that God hated that sin.

No, but the fact of the matter is it was *never* included. You ratonalise that there was no word for it, but that's not even relevant. You want to believe in a connection that there is no Scriptural basis for because you were told that is the case by some preacher. You're struggling to maintain your position while refusing to acknowledge the fact that the Tanakh does not state that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for homosexuality.

Reba said:
Any sexual relationship outside of the marriage between one single man and one single woman is sin.

Is that clear enough?

I know several Orthodox Jews that will disagree with you on that. You won't find any Rabbis of any movement anywhere that will say that there is Scriptural basis for the condemnation of lesbianism. Now, many will say that the implication is there, but none will say there is Scriptural basis for it.
 
Hi Teresh, I clicked on the Wilkipedia link you provided. The talmud is starting to be rejected by the jewish people inside Israel. They are going with G-d's Book. The Torah then eventually give their hearts to Yeshua and become messanic jews. You would be very surprised to read about what the Talmud actually teaches as I have read the talmud for myself and the talmud is not a very nice book on par with the islamic quran.
 
Heath said:
Hi Teresh, I clicked on the Wilkipedia link you provided. The talmud is starting to be rejected by the jewish people inside Israel. They are going with G-d's Book. The Torah then eventually give their hearts to Yeshua and become messanic jews. You would be very surprised to read about what the Talmud actually teaches as I have read the talmud for myself and the talmud is not a very nice book on par with the islamic quran.

Wishful thinking on your part. Yes, most Jews in Israel are secular. That's a well understood fact that has been the case for a long time.
 
Truly, Sodom and Gommorah is NOT just sins of homosexuality, its ALL KINDS. Those cities is filled with humanism and nuetral. Condone any kinds of lifestyles, idolatry, inhospitalities, hatred, killing and all kinds. They jave no place for God. And those cities went across the line and God has to do something about it. Truly and sadly SOME churches does hurting the societies. But each of us, that is everyone, will be held accountible for our actions. In the presence of God, it will be like x-ray of your actions of anykinds and will expose, if anyone does not have the blood covered and atoned, will be destroyed, and may sound harsh, but God tried everyway to bring ALL people into Heaven, but many depend on their own, and not needing as many called "Jesus stuff". You think I look down on ya'll. NOT one bit, but hurt. I know some of you will I'm hurting myself, which is not so and not only that its NEVER to late, you still have opportune. What SOME christians do, but blame all of them and think all christians are like that, which is not even slight, is correct. I can't see your thoughts, your hearts or know the future of yours, only God does. Christians responsiblities is share the gospel, and that's God's command, if christian doesn't share, it will be blood on their hand for not sharing. Like I said sahring, not stone caster like SOME christians and christians who been neutral will be costly and held accountable. Grace is still here and its free for ALL, and grace bestows for those who comes to Savior.
 
Hi Teresh , Here is what God had to say on the subject of lesbianism as well as homosexuality itself.

In Romans chapter 1, homosexuality is at the end of the road. It is at the lowest level of human depravity. The stages by stages are clearly set forth. "Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves...For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet." Romans 1:21-24,26,27.

For sure, Anyone can understand that the above Scripture condemns homosexual sins. Man turned from God to sexual idols, to human depravity, and God gave them up. God will not countenance homosexuality, sodomy and lesbianism. Homosexual ministers and ministers who condone homosexuality have written many articles defending its practice, but they never bother to explain Romans 1. The reason is obvious. It cannot be explained away. It must either be ignored or denied. Widespread homosexuality in a society is a sign that God has given them up! If America continues to follow the widespread homosexual trend, it will destroy our civilization.

Certainly the homosexual should be punished by civil government. The Bible condones laws against murder, kidnaping, adultery and many other sins. Society has a right to protect itself against destructive crimes. These things are not private matters and should not be treated as such. It is not a matter " between consenting adults in private," as we are told.

Listen to the Word of God! "But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind (the homosexual), for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine." I Timothy 1:8-10.

"Defile themselves with mankind", in the above Scripture is translated from the Greek word "arsenokoites" and it means "sodomites" according to Strongs Greek Dictionary. Thayer's Greek Lexicon defines "arsenokoites" as "one who lies with a male as with a female, a sodomite." So according to the above Scriptures, sodomy should be illegal and should be punished along with murder and kidnaping.

Some people also say that a homosexual cannot be saved. Generally they base their belief on Romans 1, which says: "God gave them up." Others point to I Cor. 6:9,10 to show that the homosexual cannot be saved. However, A real close study of these Scriptures will prove just the opposite. We hasten to say, that we do not believe that a person who is saved will remain a homosexual. That person who is saved will turn from it, repent of it and forsake it.

Let us note what the Scripture says! Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? "Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, (Greek "arsenokoites" meaning "sodomites"), Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." I Cor. 6:9,10. This would end all hope of salvation for the sodomite and a lot of others, if it were not for the next verse of Scripture. "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." I Cor. 6:11. So there you have the truth. Some of the Corinthian Christian had been sodomites, but they no longer were sodomites, for they had been washed, sanctified and justified by the Lord. They were no longer involved in this awful sin. They were not saved by quitting their sins, but they were saved out of their sins.

The homosexual needs the truth more than anything else. "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32. He needs to know that all human being are born with a sinful nature but they are not born homosexuals. The devil would like for homosexuals to believe that they are born homosexuals, and that there is nothing they can do about it. They need to be told that it is not a sickness, but a sin! By "repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 20:21), they can be saved.

To promote, encourage or participate in homosexual acts, is a grave offense against God. Homosexual ministers and homosexual churches must be especially offensive to God, since they promote sodomy and confirm sodomites in their sin. Instead of being encouraged in their sin, they need to be told: "Repent ye therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out." Acts 3:19.

Homosexuality has been around a long time and is nothing new. It has been instrumental in destroying a number of civilizations.

It is shocking to see how governmental leaders, doctors, educators and many others have turned pro-gay. However, the most disgusting thing is to see gay churches, gay ministers and pro-gay religious leaders. Nothing is holy to these ungodly people.

They dare to suggest that David and Jonathan were homosexual friends. Some have said that Jesus was gay since He never married. It grieves God to no ends about this, but people should know what is going on !!!

Many years ago it was not proper to speak in public about homosexuality. It was something that polite, decent people just did not talk about. Even the non-believers knew that homosexuality was contrary to normal human behavior. They knew it was wrong. Religious people knew the Bible condemned it as a sin.

Some doctors, psychiatrists and psychologists have defended homosexuality. The movie industry has portrayed homosexuality and lesbianism in a sympathetic way. In movie theaters and over television, sodomy has been introduced to adults and children alike. It has had an impact on public opinion. Now the homosexuals are coming out in the open and bragging about their practice. Many "gay parades" have been held.

So it is high time that this subject be discussed in the light of what the Bible has to say about homosexuality and lesbianism. There is no intention of using offensive language or lurid descriptions of homosexuality.

The reader reading this will be brought to a greater realization of the holiness of God. Sex is not dirty or immoral, IF it is used according to Bible teaching. "Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge." Heb. 13:4.

Both the Old and New Testaments bear abundant proof that God considers it to be a wicked and terrible sin. Homosexuality is contrary to nature! God told Adam and Noah to "multiply, and replenish the earth." If Adam or Noah and his sons had adapted a total homosexual way of life, then the human race would have come to an end. It is obvious today, if all the earth's people became homosexuals, the human race would come to an end. Of course some homosexuals are bisexual, and do bear children.

Genesis is the book of beginnings. There is a rule followed by fundamental Bible students, that is known as the law or rule of "first mention." When you find something mentioned the first time in Genesis, this will set a pattern for understanding it throughout the Bible. This certainly holds true on homosexuality. "...the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly." Genesis 13:13. We are not long left in doubt of the nature of the sin Sodom was noted for.

Genesis is the book of beginnings. There is a rule followed by fundamental Bible students, that is known as the law or rule of "first mention." When you find something mentioned the first time in Genesis, this will set a pattern for understanding it throughout the Bible. This certainly holds true on homosexuality. "...the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly." Genesis 13:13. We are not long left in doubt of the nature of the sin Sodom was noted for. Sodom And The First Mention Of Homosexuality in the Holy Bible.

God revealed to Abraham that He was going to destroy Sodom, "Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;" Gen. 18:20. God sent two angels, who appeared as men, into Sodom to warn Lot and his family to flee the city. The angels spent the night in Lot's house. That night the men of Sodom surrounded the house and asked, him, "Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may KNOW them." Gen. 19:5. It is clear that the Bible uses the word "know" many times to describe a sex act between two individuals. "And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain,..." "And Cain KNEW his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch:..." Gen. 4:1,17. Lot offered to give the men of Sodom his two unmarried daughters, which had not "KNOWN man", but of course they were not interested in women. They wanted men because they were sodomites. Even when they were smitten with blindness by the angels, these wicked men still wearied themselves in trying to find the door of Lot's house.

God destroyed Sodom with fire and brimstone. Anyone should be able to read Genesis 19 and see God's attitude toward the practice of homosexuals. "Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;" Gen. 19:24. This even is mentioned many other places in the Bible, by Isaiah, Jeremiah and other prophets. It is used as an example of God's judgment by Jesus, Peter and Jude in the New Testament. Not one writer or speaker in the Bible questions God's righteousness in destroying these cities.

God's Law Forbids homosexual acts. It is easy to see that homosexual acts were forbidden by the Law. "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." Lev. 18:22. This sin called for the death penalty under the Law. "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death;" Lev. 20:13. "There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel." Deut. 23:17. "Thou shalt not commit adultery." Ex. 20:14. Although this verse does not mention an homosexual act, nevertheless, it would forbid this sin. Why? Because homosexuals commit adulterous acts with persons of the same sex.

Why God Commanded Nations To Be Destroyed!

Israel was told to destroy certain nations that dwelt in the land of Canaan. This is found a number of times in Deuteronomy and Joshua. It is clear that Israel not only was told to do this, but God also said that He would help them do it. Some liberal humanistic theologians of the 20th Century do not believe that God said for Israel to do this. They do not deny that it is found in the Bible, but they deny that God said it. They prefer to believe that the writers simply made it up to cover their cruelties to the inhabitants of the land. The Bible believer must take an entirely different approach. Doing the right thing in The Eyes Of The Lord!

Those who condoned and tolerated the sodomites were condemned by God. However, the kings who properly handled the homosexual issue, "did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord." King Asa "did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD,...he took away the sodomites out of the land,..." I Kings 15:11,12. King Jehoshaphat "did which was right in the eyes of the LORD:..the remnant of the sodomites,...he took out of the land." I Kings 22:43,46. King Josiah "did that which was right in the sight of the Lord,...he brake down the houses of the sodomites, that were by the house of the Lord..." II Kings 22: 23:7.

Churches, denominations and preachers who advocate, condone or excuse homosexuality are NOT doing that which is right in the sight of the Lord.

Let the Bible speak. In Deut. 7:1, seven nations are named and in 7:2, Israel is commanded: "And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them." "And the LORD thy God will put out those nations before thee... LORD thy God shall deliver them unto thee, and shall destroy them..." Deut. 7:22,23. A careful study will reveal WHY God ordered whole nations to be destroyed by the Israelites. God warned Israel concerning a long list of sins, including incest, adultery, having sex with animals and homosexuality. "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind...Neither shalt thou lie with any beast...Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you...the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants." Lev. 18:22-25. Man is forbidden to "lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman," and "ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them." Lev. 20:13,23.

Judah was condemned during the time of Rehoboam, because "there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel." I Kings 14:24. Once again we are shown one of the principle reasons why God ordered the wholesale destruction of certain nations. God knew what he was doing, and He violated none of His attributes or laws in destroying them. His love, holiness and righteousness are vindicated by His judgments. True love will never tolerate and condone homosexuality !!!!!
 
Heath, there are some disagreement how you look at homosexualities. There are some who is strong believer in Christ, struggle in their flesh, bec we still have the flesh and daily battle, that meant any kind who we are. As of Romans, those who practice homsexuals doesn't meant God gave them up, God gave them up bec they rebelled and dishonor God, that what lead people of all kinds of sins. I have heard some said, their is no such thing christians struggle with homosexual, which is not accordingly, yes, much change, some is quick and some is slow, bec God knows each heart. There is also says, those who gossip, lies, backstabbing, cutdown people of their "wrong doing" instead of edify and etc have no place for the kingdom of God, I've been there and seen how many christians are doing, and yes, we should not condone any of their behaviors, not particular behaviors. Jesus died for ALL and God knows the pain of each one, who seek after Him, those who never commit homosexual is easilly to say those people who has gone thru that. CAN NOT condemn for those who is longing to know Christ, tho if they make mistake, tho he knows is wrong, he keeps rely on Christ. I have met some who try to kill themselves bec thinking God reject them and even seek after God to continue to grow and doesn't condone their own behavior. But I shared with him, what many christians are doing is not oppropriate and I show each of the passage about certain things what it meant. I told him, God knows your pain and keep your faith in Him strong and God will enable you and it will take time for the life changing, bec your thought of God change you than rely on your thoughts. Heath, you gonna have to becareful how you use that.
 
Teresh said:
... You keep citing passages that either have nothing to do with that or aren't even in the Torah.
Leviticus is in the Torah.


That's not said anywhere, though. Sodom and Gomorrah weren't the only nations to exist before the Hebrews... They were only two of a great number.
But not all other cities were destroyed that way.

In addition to the description in Genesis, Ezekiel mentions their destruction by name.


That's OK but after all, it is just wikipedia.


... One is biologically required to be what they're genes say they are, whether they like it or not.
No, your genes don't "require" your behaviors unless you have an actual genetic mental disorder.


... Maybe you rationalise your sins, your hate for gay people (heck, we all know you do, you blame Scirpture, blame God), I don't blame others for my sins.
No, I don't hate homosexual people. I don't "blame" Scriptures or God for anything. It would actually be easier for me to hate homosexuals and just go with the flow, and let them plunge into destruction. I could easily be more "popular" here if I ignored the truth, but my popularity isn't important. The truth is important, so I'll just put up with the criticism.


But I also believe I am in charge of my own destiny.
You mean your genes don't control you?


Unlike you, I do not leave my fate up to the whims of God and society. I leave my fate up to my own choices and the decisions I make.
God doesn't have whims; people do. God is steady and unchanging; He doesn't follow the winds of political correctness or popularity polls. He also gives everyone free will to make our own decisions. Your choices and decisions are your own. The consequences are not.


And that is the difference between a conservative and a liberal. Conservatives believe in self-suppression, liberals believe in self-actualisation.
Interesting. Is that why conservatives encourage free enterprise and self-empowerment? Is that why liberals encourage people to be dependent on social services and tax-supported entitlements?


Um, sure. Christianity bores me, remember?
Then why do you get involved in these debates?


Obviously an unmarried black couple is living in sin if they want acceptance and fair treatment in white society. God forbid *those* people should ever be anything but slaves according to Leviticus 25:46.
What are you talking about?

Leviticus 25:46
And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

That verse is for the "children of Israel" and their bondmen (who were not necessarily, or even normally "black"). What does that have to do with unmarried black couples living in sin?


Obviously biological differences don't matter to you when it comes to gay people (remember, the AMA and APA both say that homosexuality is biological, not psychological or "sinful"), so why aren't you a racist too?
I didn't know the AMA and APA were authorized to determine what was sin or not. I thought God did that.

Just because they changed their "official" classifications doesn't make something so. It's interesting how transient their findings can be. The AMA and APA can change their definitions and rules but God never does.

"Race" is not a moral behavior.


If you're going to hate one group of people for being biologically different from you, why not just hate all people who aren't Reba clones? It's easier that way. Either your a racist and a homophobe, or neither.
Why should I hate anyone? I'm not a racist nor a homophobe.

Let me ask you something. Why do you want to get personal in this debate? Are you running low on ammo?


Not overtly, but if it's two men wanting to rent a one-bedroom apartment and they aren't related, guesses about their orientations might be made.
Have you ever heard of twin beds or bunk beds? Wow, who has the dirty mind, you or me?


Yeah. People commit a lot of abominations. What's to say Ezekiel wasn't referring to a different one?
Which "abomination" do you say caused the destruction of Sodom?


No, but the fact of the matter is it was *never* included.
The English word "homosexual" was not because there are no English words in the original text. The description of homosexual behavior is used.


You ratonalise that there was no word for it, but that's not even relevant. You want to believe in a connection that there is no Scriptural basis for because you were told that is the case by some preacher. You're struggling to maintain your position while refusing to acknowledge the fact that the Tanakh does not state that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for homosexuality.
You don't know what "some preacher" told me. That's very presumptious of you. So far, in this thread, I've haven't used any material from my pastor's sermons or classes.

You say that I rationalize. What are you trying to rationalize? Are you trying to convince yourself and others that homosexuality is accepted by God?

Sorry. Society can change but God does not change. No one can force you to believe that but that is the situation.


I know several Orthodox Jews that will disagree with you on that. You won't find any Rabbis of any movement anywhere that will say that there is Scriptural basis for the condemnation of lesbianism. Now, many will say that the implication is there, but none will say there is Scriptural basis for it.
Any sexual relationship outside of the marriage of one man and one woman is sin. That includes all other combinations, with whatever titles, that someone can create.
 
hottiedeafboi said:
...There are some who is strong believer in Christ, struggle in their flesh, bec we still have the flesh and daily battle, that meant any kind who we are. ..
That's true. But just because we struggle with our temptations and sins doesn't mean those are not sins. For example, if I had to struggle with the temptation of shop lifting, that doesn't mean shop lifting is not a sin. It is still a sin, whether I give in to it or not.
 
Heath said:
In Romans chapter 1

I don't care what Romans 1 said. I'm not a Christian, remember?

Heath said:
For sure, Anyone can understand that the above Scripture condemns homosexual sins.

Yeah, but if the individual does not believe it to be valid canon, it doesn't matter what it says.

Heath said:
Certainly the homosexual should be punished by civil government. The Bible condones laws against murder, kidnaping, adultery and many other sins.

OK. The Tanakh also commands the death of anyone who does any work on Saturday. Shall we stone you for turning the lights on in your bathroom?

Heath said:
Listen to the Word of God! "But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind (the homosexual), for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine." I Timothy 1:8-10.

Again, Christian scripture. I'm not Christian. I don't care what your holy book says.

Heath said:
Homosexuality has been around a long time and is nothing new. It has been instrumental in destroying a number of civilizations.

Name one where there is actually certifiable evidence supporting it.

Heath said:
It is shocking to see how governmental leaders, doctors, educators and many others have turned pro-gay. However, the most disgusting thing is to see gay churches, gay ministers and pro-gay religious leaders. Nothing is holy to these ungodly people.

Funny. We'd say that there is nothing holy about you who condemn people for their biology.

Heath said:
They dare to suggest that David and Jonathan were homosexual friends. Some have said that Jesus was gay since He never married. It grieves God to no ends about this, but people should know what is going on !!!

Yeshua married Mary. Where've you been?

Heath said:
So it is high time that this subject be discussed in the light of what the Bible has to say about homosexuality and lesbianism. There is no intention of using offensive language or lurid descriptions of homosexuality.

The Tanakh doesn't say anything on lesbianism.

Heath said:
Genesis is the book of beginnings. There is a rule followed by fundamental Bible students, that is known as the law or rule of "first mention." When you find something mentioned the first time in Genesis, this will set a pattern for understanding it throughout the Bible. This certainly holds true on homosexuality. "...the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly." Genesis 13:13. We are not long left in doubt of the nature of the sin Sodom was noted for. Sodom And The First Mention Of Homosexuality in the Holy Bible.

Homosexuality is not mentioned in Genesis.

Heath said:
God destroyed Sodom with fire and brimstone. Anyone should be able to read Genesis 19 and see God's attitude toward the practice of homosexuals.

Um, no, I can't. There's nothing in Genesis 19 about homosexuality. Unless your version magically has some passage that mine does not (I doubt it, but hey, you're using the inaccurate KJV translation), there isn't any mention of homosexuality in the whole book of Genesis.

Reba said:
Leviticus is in the Torah.

Leviticus didn't say that Sodom was destroyed for homosexuality, did it?

Reba said:
In addition to the description in Genesis, Ezekiel mentions their destruction by name.

Ezekiel isn't in the Torah.

Reba said:
That's OK but after all, it is just wikipedia.

You need a better excuse than it being "just wikipedia" for the many mitzvot you break on a daily basis.

Reba said:
No, I don't hate homosexual people. I don't "blame" Scriptures or God for anything. It would actually be easier for me to hate homosexuals and just go with the flow, and let them plunge into destruction. I could easily be more "popular" here if I ignored the truth, but my popularity isn't important. The truth is important, so I'll just put up with the criticism.

As I've said before, I'll say again. You hate homosexual people. You justify it by calling it religion. You tell yourself that that hate is OK because God says it is. You are a naturally evil individual, you only suppress the darker aspects of yourself to appear to be a good person. You won't be actualised until you stop lying to yourself.

Reba said:
Interesting. Is that why conservatives encourage free enterprise and self-empowerment? Is that why liberals encourage people to be dependent on social services and tax-supported entitlements?

When I say "liberals" I mean true liberals, that is, libertarians, those who are both economically laissez-faire and socially libertarian. I am a liberal. I'm not a democrat or a republican.

Reba said:
That verse is for the "children of Israel" and their bondmen (who were not necessarily, or even normally "black"). What does that have to do with unmarried black couples living in sin?

Nevermind. You completely missed the point.

Reba said:
I didn't know the AMA and APA were authorized to determine what was sin or not. I thought God did that.

It's a question of whether or not homosexuality is biological or psychological. The answer to that question is the former. I have my doubts God creates people specifically to be sinners.

Reba said:
"Race" is not a moral behavior.

Neither is homosexuality immoral, then.

Reba said:
Let me ask you something. Why do you want to get personal in this debate? Are you running low on ammo?

No. It's your unfailing naivete that irritates me.

Reba said:
Have you ever heard of twin beds or bunk beds? Wow, who has the dirty mind, you or me?

I'm stating a fact that it does happen, not saying that that's good or that it should happen. Racial discrimination happens to. The fact that it does happen should be a call to action against it.

Reba said:
Which "abomination" do you say caused the destruction of Sodom?

No idea. Could've been anything. I'm not that old, so I wasn't there at the time.

Reba said:
You say that I rationalize. What are you trying to rationalize? Are you trying to convince yourself and others that homosexuality is accepted by God?

Convince? No. I just want you to be self-actualised and stop lying to yourself.
 
I understand that part, Reba. Remember, scripture several times talk about weak faith and build them up. Most churches doesn't do that and you know even scripture said not even involve those who gossip, bec that relate the time of moses, people murmur and gossip and God destroyed them. Christians does sin in different ways, carnal christians will be accountable as much as spiritual. Carnal is neutral kind and spiritual is fighting battle against their own weakness by asking God to enable them. Remember, King David, many times knelt before God when he sins of allkinds and all in different times, bec David loved God so much and constantly giving himself to God, but remember there are times David hold on to his sins and not confessed and he felt pain and dry bones and lead him to fall on his knees to confess and cleansing. We do make mistakes and sin, but God heed for those who confess and agree for those who sins and seek after righteousness. Practice godliness is everyday life. You will succeed some and fail some.
 
Any sexual relationship outside of the marriage between one single man and one single woman is sin.
Reba, genderqueer has NOTHING to do with marriage. It's a way of describing someone who ID's strongly as not strictly (gender behavoir/stereotype wise) a man or a woman. You obviously have never read up on gender theory!
 
Teresh said:
You need a better excuse than it being "just wikipedia" for the many mitzvot you break on a daily basis.

Most of the mitzvot don't apply to Reba, since she's not Jewish. What do apply to non-Jews (according to Jewish tradition) are the Noahid Laws, or Brit Noah.

1. Avodah zarah - Do not worship false gods.
2. Shefichat damim - Do not murder.
3. Gezel - Do not steal (or kidnap).
4. Gilui arayot - Do not be sexually immoral.
5. Birkat Hashem - Do not "bless God" euphemistically referring to blasphemy.
6. Ever min ha-chai - Do not eat any flesh that was torn from the body of a living animal.
7. Dinim - Do not permit oppression or anarchy to rule. Set up a system of honest, effective courts, police and laws to uphold the last six laws.

Now, you can certainly argue that she's "permit[ting] oppression ... to rule", but I don't think you could argue that she's violating the other 6 laws. (Well, belief in a divine Jesus is sometimes interpreted as worship of a false god, but that's a more strict definition.) Granted, how exactly the Noahide Laws are defined depends on who you ask, but there is nothing in the Talmud or Talmudic commentary to suggest that non-Jews are held to all 613 mitzvot.
 
Yes I believe my black is exist cursed in their eyes of people hate me and hate God..

I know anyone of you who says blaming black skin, because black people actually were cursed and sinned. you believed that canaan [black nation aka african american] was curse and they used childern of canaan being servant to ham, Shem, and other .

some of you who turning against blacks instead of gays/lesbians, because black is dirty, evil, etc you named it. dictionary is your best friend, book will answer you what in term: "BLACK" mean to you.

Have you hear any worse another nation hate against bondage of nation in any nations ? in africa? NO you wrong.... Mighty white opposite black ones of nation in North america of white country unlike any other nations. they made black ones of servant and maid as serve them.

servant which meanings "bondman".

maid which meanings "bondwoman".

in modern time people said "servant is slave"

Blacks in North America are not servants [aka slave]?
 
Sodom and Gomorrah
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For other uses, see Sodom and Gomorrah (disambiguation).
In the Bible, Sodom (סְדוֹם, Standard Hebrew Sədom, Tiberian Hebrew Səḏôm) and Gomorrah (עֲמוֹרָה, Standard ʿAmora, Tiberian Ġəmôrāh, ʿĂmôrāh) — were two cities destroyed by God for their sins. In Hebrew, Sodom means Burnt and Gomorrah means A Ruined Heap. Respectively, these names seem to have been given after the disaster, and were not their original names.

The story of Sodom has given rise to words in several languages, including English: the word "sodomy", meaning acts (stigmatized as "unnatural vice") such as homosexuality, anal sex, and the word "sodomite", meaning one who practices such acts. For the unnatural sins of their inhabitants Sodom, Gomorrha, Adama, and Zeboim were destroyed by "brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven" (Genesis 13:13; 18:20; 19:24, 29; Hosea 11:8). Since then, their names are synonymous with impenitent sin, and their fall with a proverbial manifestation of God's just wrath (Deuteronomy 29:23; 32:32; Isaiah 1:10 sqq.; Ezekiel 16:49; Matthew 11:23 sq.; 2 Peter 2:6; Jude 7). The Septuagint's Greek rendering katestrephe (Genesis 19:25) probably led to the erroneous opinion that the destruction of Sodom was accompanied by great upheavals of the earth, and even to the formation of the Dead Sea.
 
ismi said:
Most of the mitzvot don't apply to Reba, since she's not Jewish. What do apply to non-Jews (according to Jewish tradition) are the Noahid Laws, or Brit Noah.

You're missing the point of my post. The point is that she's picking and choosing which are true and which aren't to suit her needs. If she doesn't want to follow all of them (indeed, some of them are completely and utterly pointless, like not eating meat and dairy at the same time), she shouldn't have to follow any. She claims that the Bible is the Word of God and that everyone should follow it completely and to the letter, but she does not and cannot practice that which she preaches.

Her entire religion is nothing but an elaborate self-deception. I don't care what creed one follows or does not follow as long as they are true to themselves and to their creed. If they are hypocritical about their beliefs, they must be challenged.
 
Heath said:
God clearly said no to race-mixing and homosexuality.


How can god justify this ban of race-mixing if we're "all descendants" of good 'ol adam and eve according to the bible?
 
Sugar Addict said:
How can god justify this ban of race-mixing if we're "all descendants" of good 'ol adam and eve according to the bible?
Truly, there are no races to "mix" because we are all of the one human race. :)
 
deafdyke said:
Any sexual relationship outside of the marriage between one single man and one single woman is sin.
Reba, genderqueer has NOTHING to do with marriage. It's a way of describing someone who ID's strongly as not strictly (gender behavoir/stereotype wise) a man or a woman. You obviously have never read up on gender theory!
"genderqueer: A gender-variant person whose gender identity is neither male nor female, is between or beyond genders, or is some combination of genders."

A "genderqueer" person would first need to resolve the gender identity problem. Then, that person could either pursue a heterosexual relationship and marriage, or could remain celebate.
 
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