California Proposition Eight - Ban on Same-Sex Marriage

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Tousi said:
Are they residents of Sacto? Or did they go there from all over for some event?
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They are residents of Sacramento and have been on the SPLC Watch list.
 
Tousi said:
Ok, thanks. I guess if they are on a watch list like that, they must be proactively doing something to the GLBT that borders on the illegal, huh? Any specific behaviors you know of that they are exhibiting?
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Hate crimes.

It's been known that they have attacked individuals that are perceived to be GLBT.
 
Byrdie714 said:
Hate crimes.

It's been known that they have attacked individuals that are perceived to be GLBT.
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That's not right and I'm glad somebody's watching them. I wonder why these eastern folks have banded together vs joining the greater crowd that are peaceful. The way they are going about their mission will just backfire and not be given serious attention.
 
Endy said:
Legalizing gay marriages!! Look at the states that already have civil unions and listen to those gays who are married saying it that Civil Unions are failing because of many things are not working "functioning" within legal system. Look at the states, New Jersey and Vermont. They said the Civil Unions are not working right. They wanted to switch over to marriage. Paper Civil Union and a real marriage license is DIFFERENT because of many legal reasons. It's not successfully equal getting the same marriage rights. IRS is one other thing it is not successfully equal in the legal system when it comes to civil union. Look at New Jersey and Vermont.

DareDevil, you never been to gay marriage? Anybody you know who is in the relationship with kids? If not, why did you think it's best for the gays to have civil union. You are making this more "discrimination, separated but equal." I ask you why it is a privilege for you to say this without knowing what is behind the scene in the gay family with kids. It appears to me that you "judge a book by its cover." You didn't bother looking into first chapter of the book what it is about before putting back on the shelf.
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But you just said that civil unions are NOT equal to a marriage license. That's what Im saying. I think they should be equal IN ALL ASPECTS. 100%. I am NOT advocating separate but equal crap. Im advocating ALL possible ways to get gay couples rights right NOW. You aren't addressing the reality. Right now, the majority is that people are against gay marriage. If you want to wait around, hoping people will change their little mind about gay people..... sorry but I'd rather capitalize on the fact that most people are okay with gay couples having a civil union. So I feel that we'd have a quicker success on getting gay rights (maybe not 100% but definitely more than what they have now). It seems like you want to wait around, prolong things so that you'd go straight from 0% rights to 100% rights........
 
Byrdie714 said:
Are you referring to the Eastern European immigrant population in Sacramento that have been campaigning against the GLBT??
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Different people, different family, different believe-in, different smart.
 
Daredevel7 said:
To me, it's more likely for states to accept civil unions more than gay marriage, even if they have the exact same rights.

Even though it's more than likely possible that civil unions would be "looked down" upon from a social perspective, but on paper civil unions are the exact same as marriage, even if it's harder to get.

Don't you think it would be faster for the nation to accept gay marriage if we start off with everyone accepting civil unions? I think the most important thing to me right now is gay couples should have equal rights as straight couples, not which word we use to describe the legal union.

Did you think blacks suddenly had full rights to do everything with one bill passed?
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Daredevel7 said:
But you just said that civil unions are NOT equal to a marriage license. That's what Im saying. I think they should be equal IN ALL ASPECTS. 100%. I am NOT advocating separate but equal crap. Im advocating ALL possible ways to get gay couples rights right NOW. You aren't addressing the reality. Right now, the majority is that people are against gay marriage. If you want to wait around, hoping people will change their little mind about gay people..... sorry but I'd rather capitalize on the fact that most people are okay with gay couples having a civil union. So I feel that we'd have a quicker success on getting gay rights (maybe not 100% but definitely more than what they have now). It seems like you want to wait around, prolong things so that you'd go straight from 0% rights to 100% rights........
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It still falls under "separate but equal"--and that is unacceptable.

If you were in a relationship with your significant other, what would you rather have? A civil union or a wedding?
 
Byrdie714 said:
It still falls under "separate but equal"--and that is unacceptable.

If you were in a relationship with your significant other, what would you rather have? A civil union or a wedding?
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I wasn't aware that a civil union can't be a wedding....? Isn't a wedding just a celebration event? I think people are misunderstanding me here. To me, marriage is something religion made up. THEN the government made it into a legal institution for the purposes of taxes, benefits, etc. I am trying to respect the religious aspect of it. When I say separate marriage from whatever, I am not talking about separating gay and straight, I am talking about separating the legal and religious aspects of it. This is the problem. The ONLY main thing that's holding gay rights back is religion!
 
Byrdie714 said:
It still falls under "separate but equal"--and that is unacceptable.

If you were in a relationship with your significant other, what would you rather have? A civil union or a wedding?
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A civil union commences right after the wedding.
 
I see what people said about civil unions vs marriages. It would be nice if any two people could do a civil union and get exactly the same thing as a marriage, making civil union = marriage, so they could say they were married, or just get married by the government if no religious organizations would allow them to. Then we could save ink on the forms like the one I saw when I got a job here in Vermont. :D
 
I disagree with you Redfox; your comment is so flippant for a serious issue such as this one.
 
Byrdie is exactly right, it's still separate but equal, and that just can't work. If the "term" marriage has too many religious associations, then they should stop using it in any governmental sense (for straight couples too), replace the word with civil unions, and have those for everyone. That would be the best and fairest way to do that.

But I think you'll find that for the same reason that they don't want to give same-sex couples "their" word, they're not too eager to give it up themselves.
 
Daredevel7 said:
I wasn't aware that a civil union can't be a wedding....? Isn't a wedding just a celebration event? I think people are misunderstanding me here. To me, marriage is something religion made up. THEN the government made it into a legal institution for the purposes of taxes, benefits, etc. I am trying to respect the religious aspect of it. When I say separate marriage from whatever, I am not talking about separating gay and straight, I am talking about separating the legal and religious aspects of it. This is the problem. The ONLY main thing that's holding gay rights back is religion!
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A civil union isn't a wedding/marriage. It's a civil union.

Tousi said:
A civil union commences right after the wedding.
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Huh? Care to elaborate?

lsfoster said:
Byrdie is exactly right, it's still separate but equal, and that just can't work. If the "term" marriage has too many religious associations, then they should stop using it in any governmental sense (for straight couples too), replace the word with civil unions, and have those for everyone. That would be the best and fairest way to do that.

But I think you'll find that for the same reason that they don't want to give same-sex couples "their" word, they're not too eager to give it up themselves.
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Thank you.

In the bold I just wanted to mention not only they don't want to give up "their" word but they are doing a shabby job in preserving marriage.
 
Byrdie714 said:
A civil union isn't a wedding/marriage. It's a civil union.
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A wedding isn't a marriage. My friend had a wedding but she was already married a year before. It's just a party.


Byrdie714 said:
In the bold I just wanted to mention not only they don't want to give up "their" word but they are doing a shabby job in preserving marriage.
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I seriously don't understand this whole "Oh heterosexual marriages are crappy, half of them end up in divorce!" How does this help your argument? You're basically saying "Gay couples do better than straight couples, therefore we should have gay marriage." Doesn't really make sense to me.

Don't get me wrong, I'm honestly all for gay marriage, I'm just surprised that NO ONE is taking advantage of the fact that the majority are okay with civil unions (EVEN IF THEY HAVE THE EXACT SAME RIGHTS AS A MARRIAGE, which they do NOT at the present point). It seems like an opportunity gone to waste because people are just so damn stubborn!
 
I am disappointed to see California and other states to pass a ban on gay marriages. I consider gay marriage as an universal human right and that is why I so strongly support it.

Perhaps they should allow civil unions as an alternative.

I have a question for you. Did you ever go to any gay wedding? I went to my good friend's gay wedding as his usher and it was very normal like a heterosexual wedding.
 
Royale said:
I have a question for you. Did you ever go to any gay wedding? I went to my good friend's gay wedding as his usher and it was very normal like a heterosexual wedding.
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No I haven't. I doubt my gay friends would get married anytime soon! They are quite enjoying the single life... :) I really do support gay marriages. If I were gay, I'd want to be married just like the straight couples (minus churches since it's not my thing). But I'm also realistic. I have great insurance and I want my partner to be able to have my benefits. I want us to be able to adopt. I want us to be recognized as a married couple. I want to be able to visit my partner in the hospital during "family only" times. Weddings or the word that describes what we have (marriage or whatever) would not be my number 1 priority. To me, the legal aspect is more important. I don't give a jack squat if people socially accept my marriage/civil union or not, as long I have my rights.
 
Daredevel7 said:
I seriously don't understand this whole "Oh heterosexual marriages are crappy, half of them end up in divorce!" How does this help your argument? You're basically saying "Gay couples do better than straight couples, therefore we should have gay marriage." Doesn't really make sense to me.
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It's not really an argument for why gay marriage should be legal, it's a counter to a very common argument against gay marriage. You can't honestly say that you've never heard someone argue that allowing gay marriage will "ruin the sanctity of marriage", and that they want to "preserve the institution of marriage", an institution which they also claim is "the foundation of society", etc.....

The argument is not "our marriages are better, therefore we should get marriage", it's simply saying that this "institution" that we're supposedly going to "ruin" and that must be "preserved" since it's the foundation of society (or whatever else they say), is really not treated as all that sacred by a lot of the people who are currently allowed to get married. It's simply trying to explain that it's unfair to say that if I marry my girlfriend, I'm going to be "ruining" marriage, even though 2/3 of straight couples who can get married will end up getting divorced. Maybe I'm wrong, but to me that just feels like it's something they take for granted and run into the ground. It's frustrating to have someone tell you that your love will ruin something that barely seems to have any meaning to them at all until they want to tell you that you can't have it.

Hope that clears that up a little.
 
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