Best way to develop oral skills?

[deafskeptic]

And round and round and round!

When are we going off the merry go=round? :P

 

[jillio]

What's that new catch phrase you are using? something about twisting words to suit one's agenda? tsk, tsk seems you are being hoisted on your own petard.

Yes, the standards for the state's requirements for graduations are the samei n every school but in New York there are different types of diplomas granted depending upon a student's performance on its regents examinations. Thus, how the school teaches the curriculum does indeed produce different results.


For instance, the Deaf school ran a puff piece a few years ago touting its first ever student to graduate with a NYS Regents Diploma, whereas the vast majority of students in our local HS graduate with one. If our graduating class had only one studrent with a NYS Regents diploma, our prinicipal and BOE would be replaced!

BTW I do not need to be an expert in this area as my wife, who holds a Masters in Special Ed, has taught and presently teaches in one of those Top 100 schools, looked at how the curriculum was being applied and taught in the Deaf school and found it woefully inadequate and unacceptable for our daughter.

Also, similar to Double Trouble's experiences, our neighbor pulled his daughter out of the deaf school after 6th grade but she was so far behind she had to repeat the year in public school in order to catch up to her peers.

That is not unique to New York. Many states have different diplomas. That way, they don't have to count the students who are not performing up to state mandated standards in their data. Skews the results, too. If you add in the students in New York who are awarded a certificate of completion to those that are receiving a diploma, the proficiency levels would go down considerably. All you are doing is attempting to skew results through statistical manipulation and misrepresentation. Your results are not based on every student that is educated in the district, but only the ones you want included that won't lower proficiency results. Nice try. And very selective, as well.

 

[Jiro]

That is not unique to New York. Many states have different diplomas. That way, they don't have to count the students who are not performing up to state mandated standards in their data. Skews the results, too. If you add in the students in New York who are awarded a certificate of completion to those that are receiving a diploma, the proficiency levels would go down considerably. All you are doing is attempting to skew results through statistical manipulation and misrepresentation. Your results are not based on every student that is educated in the district, but only the ones you want included that won't lower proficiency results. Nice try. And very selective, as well.

I believe Oregon does this too.

 

[jillio]

I believe Oregon does this too.

Sure they do. But those who want to brag about the quality of their schools are using selective data...which pretty much invalidates their claims.

 

[deafskeptic]

That is not unique to New York. Many states have different diplomas. That way, they don't have to count the students who are not performing up to state mandated standards in their data. Skews the results, too. If you add in the students in New York who are awarded a certificate of completion to those that are receiving a diploma, the proficiency levels would go down considerably. All you are doing is attempting to skew results through statistical manipulation and misrepresentation. Your results are not based on every student that is educated in the district, but only the ones you want included that won't lower proficiency results. Nice try. And very selective, as well.

I remember that one dorm supervisor was jealous of me because I was considered the smart one. I didn't know till years later that she had a certificate of completion. The guy who told me this said it meant she wouldnt' be able to go to college. I don't know if that's true or not.

 

[Jiro]

I remember that one dorm supervisor was jealous of me because I was considered the smart one. I didn't know till years later that she had a certificate of completion. The guy who told me this said it meant she wouldnt' be able to go to college. I don't know if that's true or not.

that is correct. You cannot go to college with a certificate of completion. What's left is doing GED but unfortunately - it's extremely difficult for them to study for it because they lack basic knowledge skills needed to do so which were ignored by their schools. IMO - such paper like certificate of completion is insulting and demeaning.

 

[jillio]

I remember that one dorm supervisor was jealous of me because I was considered the smart one. I didn't know till years later that she had a certificate of completion. The guy who told me this said it meant she wouldnt' be able to go to college. I don't know if that's true or not.

That is true. She/he would have had to complete a GED to be eligible for college admission.

 

[jillio]

that is correct. You cannot go to college with a certificate of completion. What's left is doing GED but unfortunately - it's extremely difficult for them to study for it because they lack basic knowledge skills needed to do so which were ignored by their schools. IMO - such paper like certificate of completion is insulting and demeaning.

True. And I might add that numerous students, particularly deaf/hoh, are held back a grade or two in the mainstream not because they are incapable of doing the work, but because the school system has failed to address their needs for communication and access to the curriculum.

 

[rick48]

Rick: I couldn't agree with you more- I live in the same area as Rick does, and the schools for the Deaf here are definitely academicaly inferior- I have family members who work in one of them. My own family has sent their children (mind you with deaf parents, asl at home) and guess what- they were all pulled out and put into their home school district- because the school was not meeting the academic needs of these children. Every single one of them (and there are 9 of them( were in the program at the Deaf school since infancy and were pulled out. So here , Rick's point about every child being different is certainly the case. These children weren't placed in another enviroment, left to fail, and then dumped on the deaf school. They were the product of the deaf school, getting nowhere very quickly, and thus, placed in mainstream programs. So even though I don't have any statistics to back that up, I have personally experienced the opposite of what you claim to be.

Double Trouble,

There are no absolutes. For some kids, and I know a few of them, it was a better place then the mainstream schools. It is interesting to note that even after all these years it still lags behind the public schools in terms of academics.
Rick

 

[Jiro]

Rick: I couldn't agree with you more- I live in the same area as Rick does, and the schools for the Deaf here are definitely academicaly inferior- I have family members who work in one of them. My own family has sent their children (mind you with deaf parents, asl at home) and guess what- they were all pulled out and put into their home school district- because the school was not meeting the academic needs of these children. Every single one of them (and there are 9 of them( were in the program at the Deaf school since infancy and were pulled out. So here , Rick's point about every child being different is certainly the case. These children weren't placed in another enviroment, left to fail, and then dumped on the deaf school. They were the product of the deaf school, getting nowhere very quickly, and thus, placed in mainstream programs. So even though I don't have any statistics to back that up, I have personally experienced the opposite of what you claim to be.

Double Trouble,

There are no absolutes. For some kids, and I know a few of them, it was a better place then the mainstream schools. It is interesting to note that even after all these years it still lags behind the public schools in terms of academics.
Rick

All for more reason why I believe there should be a federal standard for deaf high schools. I could not believe when a fellow ADer told me about the school issuing certificate of completion and quite a handful of teachers at deaf school do not know ASL. How could they?????? I didn't even know such paper existed either!

 

[naisho]

Someone wanted me to ask this, I am writing for them:

We know there are deaf schools that exist which provide inadequate information required for a general education.

There are teachers in deaf schools that are hearing, and sign at varying levels. Since ASL-acquired kids seem to have different levels of skill, some would get bored of understanding the teacher and also end up getting into "trouble" such as not grasping the education or bored of the curriculum overall.
In the end it resulted like the fruits of their learning efforts were wasted.

Some deaf schools were so inadequate in the fields they offer, that deafies had to end up going to Gallaudet for learning courses like science-bio-chem for the first time.

This is why they think that on a mainstream school vs deaf school viewpoint, the mainstream seems to have more to offer for a deaf kid "educationwise".


What is the common rhetoric around this for a sign-orientated education? Move around until they are within the vicinity of a "prestigious" deaf school?

 

[rick48]

That is not unique to New York. Many states have different diplomas. That way, they don't have to count the students who are not performing up to state mandated standards in their data. Skews the results, too. If you add in the students in New York who are awarded a certificate of completion to those that are receiving a diploma, the proficiency levels would go down considerably. All you are doing is attempting to skew results through statistical manipulation and misrepresentation. Your results are not based on every student that is educated in the district, but only the ones you want included that won't lower proficiency results. Nice try. And very selective, as well.

You are not getting it, school districts post the percentage of their students receiving regents diplomas as that is an indication of how well the students perform. The different diplomas are to recognize that while a student did not perform up to the criteria needed on the various regents examinations, the student did pass the required course work as set forth by the individual high school.

The point made by both myself and Double Trouble is that the Deaf school in our area is academically inferior to our local public schools. We each have experience and knowledge of the school and in DT's personal experience from family members. You do not know the school, our children or the schools we are comparing the Deaf school to, yet you persist in arguing this issue.

But then, what else would you do if not argue every point?

 

[rick48]

All for more reason why I believe there should be a federal standard for deaf high schools. I could not believe when a fellow ADer told me about the school issuing certificate of completion and quite a handful of teachers at deaf school do not know ASL. How could they?????? I didn't even know such paper existed either!

That's a different issue altogether, but does not address the points we were making that in our respective cases, the Deaf school was inferior to our local public schools and I will not speak for DT but I believe it to be the same, that our children had developed the oral skills necessary to succeed in the mainstream. So, would you still insist that in our individual cases, our children should go to the Deaf schools and receive an inferior education, isn't that what you commonly call an "EPIC FAIL"? Or is the more enlighted approach to view each child as a unique individual and place them in an academic setting that best meets all of their needs?

 

[Jiro]

That's a different issue altogether, but does not address the points we were making that in our respective cases, the Deaf school was inferior to our local public schools and I will not speak for DT but I believe it to be the same, that our children had developed the oral skills necessary to succeed in the mainstream. So, would you still insist that in our individual cases, our children should go to the Deaf schools and receive an inferior education, isn't that what you commonly call an "EPIC FAIL"? Or is the more enlighted approach to view each child as a unique individual and place them in an academic setting that best meets all of their needs?

in case you forget - look back in this thread and you'll see that we're not demanding all deaf schools to stick with "pure-deaf" approach. They do include speech therapy as adjunct service and it's entirely up to you as the parent to seek additional speech therapy at your expense. If you read carefully - you will see that majority of deaf kids have taken speech therapy. The result is mixed.... which is ok because it all depends on their innate ability to speak, not numbers of hours spent on speech therapy.

Again - it's entirely up to you to place your kid in any school you want but it's important to keep in mind that the approach "to make deaf kids to function and live like a hearing and to put emphasis on oral ahead of their ASL" is wrong. To think that you need to speak to live a better life is wrong too.

 

[Bottesini]

And quite frankly, if I saw a Deaf adult signing that statement, his oral skills or lack of them, would not be the first thought I had.

Mods yell at those of us who dare say that here!

 

[rick48]

in case you forget - look back in this thread and you'll see that we're not demanding all deaf schools to stick with "pure-deaf" approach. They do include speech therapy as adjunct service and it's entirely up to you as the parent to seek additional speech therapy at your expense. If you read carefully - you will see that majority of deaf kids have taken speech therapy. The result is mixed.... which is ok because it all depends on their innate ability to speak, not numbers of hours spent on speech therapy.

Again - it's entirely up to you to place your kid in any school you want but it's important to keep in mind that the approach "to make deaf kids to function and live like a hearing and to put emphasis on oral ahead of their ASL" is wrong. To think that you need to speak to live a better life is wrong too.[/QUOT


Don't know why you are using that quote about trying to make deaf kids function like hearing kids (whatever that means), since it is not mine but in any event I disagree with the subjective value judgment that emphasizing oral skills ahead of ASL is "wrong". Again, do not know how many times I have to say it: each kid is different. I think the whole "need to speak to live a better life" issue has been beaten to death and constantly and inappropriately assigned to those who choose to develop their children's oral skills. As such a parent, I would agree with you that you do not need to "speak to live a better life" however, I truly believe that having the ability to speak will provide one options and opportunities. Having a "better life" I hope comes from such things as the values and love from one's family and not one's communication mode.

I disagree with your opinion as to having an innate ability to speak as the determinative factor in developing one's oral skills but in case you forgot, go back and re-read my initial posts on this topic.

 

[Oddball]

All for more reason why I believe there should be a federal standard for deaf high schools. I could not believe when a fellow ADer told me about the school issuing certificate of completion and quite a handful of teachers at deaf school do not know ASL. How could they?????? I didn't even know such paper existed either!

Yes, it happens at CA School for the Deaf, Fremont where I interned in the past. I never heard of "certificate of completion" until I entered into CSDF as an intern. It shocked me. Ofc, I was being dismayed by the certifcation as well as I felt that it is insulting and deflecting to some students with their struggling skills. In my time, schools never issue a certificate of completion paper until many years later. It is so terrible. I think school system needs to change at some point. It is not fair to them.

 

[Oddball]

in case you forget - look back in this thread and you'll see that we're not demanding all deaf schools to stick with "pure-deaf" approach. They do include speech therapy as adjunct service and it's entirely up to you as the parent to seek additional speech therapy at your expense. If you read carefully - you will see that majority of deaf kids have taken speech therapy. The result is mixed.... which is ok because it all depends on their innate ability to speak, not numbers of hours spent on speech therapy.

Again - it's entirely up to you to place your kid in any school you want but it's important to keep in mind that the approach "to make deaf kids to function and live like a hearing and to put emphasis on oral ahead of their ASL" is wrong. To think that you need to speak to live a better life is wrong too.

Well said.

But the your bold statement is valid because I had experience in my school years...it did not help me at all. Oral approach does not make some Deaf students to achieve academically either.

Look at Deaf male Asian from China or somewhere else, has either very limited or NO exposure to any language at all. He can not speak at all. He got a job within a construction company somewhere in Northern CA and get along well with his hearing coworkers.. All they communicate is using a body language. It is a true story. What's up?

 

[Daredevel7]

Ya know... I am not even sure what people even want...
-more schools for the deaf? (Not going to happen, like I said, a lack of deaf kids)
-improved quality of deaf ed? (Seems like this is needed for some schools)
-make more parents send their kids to the nearest deaf school (which might be hours away) instead of mainstream?
-shut down oral schools for the deaf? (I think this is gonna happen soon anyway)

 

[deafskeptic]

Ya know... I am not even sure what people even want...
-more schools for the deaf? (Not going to happen, like I said, a lack of deaf kids)
-improved quality of deaf ed? (Seems like this is needed for some schools)
-make more parents send their kids to the nearest deaf school (which might be hours away) instead of mainstream?
-shut down oral schools for the deaf? (I think this is gonna happen soon anyway)

I think the majority wants class lessons to be 100% accessiable be it be in mainstream or deaf school. A lot of the time mainstream won't meet deaf kid's communication need or other needs so they end up getting sent to a school for the deaf. I doubt all the deaf schools will close for good.