Best way to develop oral skills?

[jillio]

I am certain that does happen, and probably quite frequently.

Yes, which is why I am saying, when we compare deaf schools to mainstream schools, there is so much more that we need to look at than the language of classroom instruction. It isn't just a matter of "education with or without speech."

It is the same as my response when someone says, "Deaf students are being graduated from programs with a 4th-5th grade reading level." They forget to tell you that the average hearing student is being graduated with a 6th grade reading level. Not a heck of a lot of difference when you put it in perspective.

 

[AlleyCat]

Is that really true? That the average hearing student only graduates with a 6th grade reading level ??

 

[jillio]

Is that really true? That the average hearing student only graduates with a 6th grade reading level ??

According to the national standards for grade level proficiency, yes.

 

[AlleyCat]

According to the national standards for grade level proficiency, yes.

Quite sad, actually. I hadn't realized it was that low.

Anyhow, I still think education and speech do not go hand-in-hand, that you must have speech in order to have a good education. I was one of the lucky ones, but there are plenty of deaf people without speech that obtained a great education.

 

[jillio]

Quite sad, actually. I hadn't realized it was that low.

Anyhow, I still think education and speech do not go hand-in-hand, that you must have speech in order to have a good education. I was one of the lucky ones, but there are plenty of deaf people without speech that obtained a great education.

Agreed on all counts.

 

[deafskeptic]

Is that really true? That the average hearing student only graduates with a 6th grade reading level ??

It was hard for me to believe but nowadays I can believe it after interacting with hearing at work.

 

[Jiro]

Ug... anyway.

I gotta go to bed. I leave with one last question. Several orally raised people here on AD complain about their upbringing or at least wished they knew ASL earlier. I ask one question: Would you be willing to lose some of your speech/lipreading proficiency?

huh? why? Are you implying that if I know ASL as my native language, I would be losing some of my speech/lipreading proficiency? absolutely FALLACIOUS! That's the problem... among people like AGBell fanatics.

strong/native L1 = an effective facilitator of L2 (meaning you will not lose some of your speech/lipreading proficiency). It's ENTIRELY dependent on your INNATE ABILITY to have speech/lipreading proficiency.

 

[deafskeptic]

huh? why? Are you implying that if I know ASL as my native language, I would be losing some of my speech/lipreading proficiency? absolutely FALLACIOUS! That's the problem... among people like AGBell fanatics.

strong/native L1 = an effective facilitator of L2 (meaning you will not lose some of your speech/lipreading proficiency). It's ENTIRELY dependent on your INNATE ABILITY to have speech/lipreading proficiency.

Exactly. I knew two deaf students whose father was Deaf and taught at VSDB in high school. Their first language was of course ASL and both had excellent speech. Dad didn't have good speech.

My dad was concerned that I'd lose my speech skills if I went to VSDB and he warned me me not to be like hte other students who just signed and not talked. Well signing and talking at the same time is just too awkard. Sign hasn't affected my speech.

 

[doubletrouble]

Welcome to my world

That is because the common misconception portrayed by some is that a child who develops oral skills is somehow being deprived of an education unless that child is in a bibi program or has ASL as L1.

I cannot speak for deaf schools everywhere but where we live they were and still are academically inferior to our public and private schools. So the reality is that where we live, the student graduating from the deaf school is not par with not only his hearing peers but those deaf kids who were mainstreamed.

It is very difficult to generalize on this topic as each child is unique and has different needs.:
Rick

Rick: I couldn't agree with you more- I live in the same area as Rick does, and the schools for the Deaf here are definitely academicaly inferior- I have family members who work in one of them. My own family has sent their children (mind you with deaf parents, asl at home) and guess what- they were all pulled out and put into their home school district- because the school was not meeting the academic needs of these children. Every single one of them (and there are 9 of them( were in the program at the Deaf school since infancy and were pulled out. So here , Rick's point about every child being different is certainly the case. These children weren't placed in another enviroment, left to fail, and then dumped on the deaf school. They were the product of the deaf school, getting nowhere very quickly, and thus, placed in mainstream programs. So even though I don't have any statistics to back that up, I have personally experienced the opposite of what you claim to be.

 

[Daredevel7]

huh? why? Are you implying that if I know ASL as my native language, I would be losing some of my speech/lipreading proficiency? absolutely FALLACIOUS! That's the problem... among people like AGBell fanatics.

strong/native L1 = an effective facilitator of L2 (meaning you will not lose some of your speech/lipreading proficiency). It's ENTIRELY dependent on your INNATE ABILITY to have speech/lipreading proficiency.

Did you even read the next few posts?

Like I said.. people are ON EDGE here...

Relax. When I win the lotto, I'll get you all massages.

 

[Hear Again]

huh? why? Are you implying that if I know ASL as my native language, I would be losing some of my speech/lipreading proficiency? absolutely FALLACIOUS!

That's right, Jiro.

I know 2 people were were born profoundly Deaf and are ASL users. Both of them are excellent lipreaders and can voice for themselves extremely well.

I don't know why oralists continue to insist that ASL negatively affects one's ability to speak and/or lipread.

 

[Hear Again]

According to the national standards for grade level proficiency, yes.

That's sad.

 

[Daredevel7]

In case people are too lazy to go back and reread the posts: I was asking if orally raised people were willing to lose their proficiency in oral skills in order to assess their value in it. If they are NOT willing to lose it, doesn't that show that maybe oral skills is really really really nice to have?

I love how people treat as if there's a nice mythological deaf school in their area that happens to have the exact same level of education as their hearing peers and has a wonderful speech therapy program.

This is what I think. There is only ONE fact that is causing all these problems with deaf education. It has nothing to do with speech, it has nothing to do with oral failures, it has nothing to do oralism, it has nothing to do with ASL. It is simply this: There just aren't that many deaf kids. I am willing to bet things would be different if there was twice the number of deaf kids right now.

 

[Jiro]

The point of the story was that my "cousin" HAS choices because he is comfortable with hearing people too. He still wants to go to Duke. But that is just it, he can pick either Duke or Gallaudet. If he was not as comfortable with hearing people, would he even think about Duke?

well - Your cousin was very amazed about having COMPLETE communication via ASL. so let's look at it this way. 4 years at Gallaudet with COMPLETE communication is better than 4 years at Duke with MEDIOCRE communication. He will not be getting his money worth out of education at Duke and it would be a complete waste of time and money.... thus he will not be able to find a good-paying job.

Networking is important as well. If he cannot communicate well with the hearings or take advantage of what Duke has to offer, then he will not be able to form solid networking relationships with them. Just something to think about...

 

[Jiro]

Is that really true? That the average hearing student only graduates with a 6th grade reading level ??

yes. If you notice - many newspapers/magazines are written at 6th grade level. some are lower. USA Today is about 4th grade level. NY Times is probably around 6-7th grade level but what makes it slightly harder to understand for many is the structure and the in depth-ness of the content.

my hearing editor friend told me this. I was dumbfounded. now you understand why FOX news is #1 most popular news?

 

[naisho]

I agree with the statement that speech and education (learning-wise) do not go hand in hand. An example of this is a professor who speaks a foreign language and is teaching American students at an American college. His speech skills are not reflective of what area he is credited to teach.

However like a few have said earlier, I still stand on a basis in presuming that speech DOES actually affect the ability for a deaf person to get a hearing person's job. Until someone can prove this wrong.
It is not exactly on level about the "you suck at speaking" discrimination part, rather really that the job tendencies require not just only a fluency in speech but also that the deaf has an ability to use a cognitive development thinking process for that particular profession.

I have described earlier a few jobs I could think off the top of my head. here are a few more.

• TV/Movie Actor - although I can see that the script is already prewritten for you by the writers.
• Book/Novel Author - others who read your book will have an easier time understanding what you are trying to say. The coignitive development takes care of the initial creativeness part; the rest is up to your writing skills.
• Public Relations - This is usually one of those high paying jobs that require you to have GOOD speech obviously, and not all hearing are capable of doing this. The main goal is to influence your opponent.
• Politician - The goal of "influencing an opponent"/"why the bill needs to be passed" (while on the podium) made me think about this job.
• General Physician - This seems kind of ehh to me because I have met physicians who have crappy speech, it is what the patient wants (to be able to understand).

Can't think of what else.

I am aware that there are some deafs that excel in these areas, and I am also aware these are hearing related jobs but my point is that a majority of deafs cannot go into these areas publicly due to not just speech, but language acquisition hindrances that makes them unable to flow like water with the hearing world.

The fact stands that not everyone wants to go into these jobs, it will vary depending on what each and every deaf wants!

Any suggestions? feedback? Fire on.

 

[Daredevel7]

well - Your cousin was very amazed about having COMPLETE communication via ASL. so let's look at it this way. 4 years at Gallaudet with COMPLETE communication is better than 4 years at Duke with MEDIOCRE communication. He will not be getting his money worth out of education at Duke and it would be a complete waste of time and money.... thus he will not be able to find a good-paying job.

Networking is important as well. If he cannot communicate well with the hearings or take advantage of what Duke has to offer, then he will not be able to form solid networking relationships with them. Just something to think about...

So he should do that just because my "cousin" has a hard time hearing his friends in noisy environments.....? A little blown out of proportion, don't you think?

It seems like there is no such a thing as a con when it comes to deaf schools. Interesting.

 

[Hear Again]

In case people are too lazy to go back and reread the posts: I was asking if orally raised people were willing to lose their proficiency in oral skills in order to assess their value in it. If they are NOT willing to lose it, doesn't that show that maybe oral skills is really really really nice to have?

Oral skills may be nice to have, but they aren't the be all and end all nor do they determine success.

 

[jillio]

Rick: I couldn't agree with you more- I live in the same area as Rick does, and the schools for the Deaf here are definitely academicaly inferior- I have family members who work in one of them. My own family has sent their children (mind you with deaf parents, asl at home) and guess what- they were all pulled out and put into their home school district- because the school was not meeting the academic needs of these children. Every single one of them (and there are 9 of them( were in the program at the Deaf school since infancy and were pulled out. So here , Rick's point about every child being different is certainly the case. These children weren't placed in another enviroment, left to fail, and then dumped on the deaf school. They were the product of the deaf school, getting nowhere very quickly, and thus, placed in mainstream programs. So even though I don't have any statistics to back that up, I have personally experienced the opposite of what you claim to be.

Then it would appear that New York has failed to follow the rest of the country in adopting the state curriculum that is used in the public schools. BTW, the state curriculum, quite obviously is not doing that well with hearing students according to national statistics.

 

[jillio]

In case people are too lazy to go back and reread the posts: I was asking if orally raised people were willing to lose their proficiency in oral skills in order to assess their value in it. If they are NOT willing to lose it, doesn't that show that maybe oral skills is really really really nice to have?

I love how people treat as if there's a nice mythological deaf school in their area that happens to have the exact same level of education as their hearing peers and has a wonderful speech therapy program.

This is what I think. There is only ONE fact that is causing all these problems with deaf education. It has nothing to do with speech, it has nothing to do with oral failures, it has nothing to do oralism, it has nothing to do with ASL. It is simply this: There just aren't that many deaf kids. I am willing to bet things would be different if there was twice the number of deaf kids right now.

Yeah, you keep holding onto that belief. Maybe one day, you'll be able to find something to substantiate it. God knows, there are volumes of research that already substantiate a quite different belief.