Best way to develop oral skills?

[Jiro]

So he should do that just because my "cousin" has a hard time hearing his friends in noisy environments.....? A little blown out of proportion, don't you think?

It seems like there is no such a thing as a con when it comes to deaf schools. Interesting.

well obviously - how can there be a con for deaf student attending deaf school? Of course you'll have to consider the quality of education, its resource, etc... same thing with hearing schools. I'm not saying your cousin would benefit GREATLY at Gallaudet than Duke but it's just something to consider. If he's perfectly comfortable with Duke and its accommodation, go ahead! Duke is a very very fine school but will he be able to FULLY utilize it to his use? that's the question to ponder on.....

 

[Jiro]

Oral skills may be nice to have, but they aren't the be all and end all nor do they determine success.

exactly. Look at many universities - full of professors who cannot speak for crap! How I know? my terp cannot even understand them well. Same with my classmates. Few of them were trying to contain their laughter because their engRish was hilarious. it was like this -

"So this is why [unintelligible] [unintelligible] be but [unintelligible].........." My terp was frequently frustrated. oh well.....

 

[jillio]

In case people are too lazy to go back and reread the posts: I was asking if orally raised people were willing to lose their proficiency in oral skills in order to assess their value in it. If they are NOT willing to lose it, doesn't that show that maybe oral skills is really really really nice to have?

I love how people treat as if there's a nice mythological deaf school in their area that happens to have the exact same level of education as their hearing peers and has a wonderful speech therapy program.

This is what I think. There is only ONE fact that is causing all these problems with deaf education. It has nothing to do with speech, it has nothing to do with oral failures, it has nothing to do oralism, it has nothing to do with ASL. It is simply this: There just aren't that many deaf kids. I am willing to bet things would be different if there was twice the number of deaf kids right now.

No one here has ever said that oral skills are not nice to have. What we are saying is that they are not the most important factor in academic success, career success, nor personal and social success. A microwave us nice to have, but it certainly isn't necessary to be able to put a delicious meal on the table.

 

[Daredevel7]

Oral skills may be nice to have, but they aren't the be all and end all nor do they determine success.

I agree.

Maybe this is a better way of explaining myself.

We see a deaf adult signing "I don't feel comfortable talking to hearing people."

You guys probably think "Oh well, not everyone talks well, no big deal." assuming that he had a chance to develop them.

I think "Did he get to practice enough when he was growing up?"

All without us knowing his background.

 

[jillio]

well obviously - how can there be a con for deaf student attending deaf school? Of course you'll have to consider the quality of education, its resource, etc... same thing with hearing schools. I'm not saying your cousin would benefit GREATLY at Gallaudet than Duke but it's just something to consider. If he's perfectly comfortable with Duke and its accommodation, go ahead! Duke is a very very fine school but will he be able to FULLY utilize it to his use? that's the question to ponder on.....

And there is always the old, "A student distracted by communication and social difficulties is unable to learn to the best of their ability."

 

[Jiro]

And I have been called an oralist, audist and told I am trying to set Deaf ed back 200 years, all on this site. When the reality is that I am a strong advocate for ASL from the start, bilingual education, and I have said, literally HUNDREDS of times that I intend to always have my daughter use ASL. I have admitted that ASL is the most accessable language for deaf/hoh kids and that I know that my daughter will need and use ASL everyday for the rest of her life.

Oh well, I dare note that there is a need for oral skills and that I believe CI's work great for many young children....boom "oralist".

yes I know you have not denied a visual form of communication for your daughter. We all know about same old L1 and L2 argument but here's what you're doing - you are attempting to use both oral + ASL together as L1 which Kat will most likely exhibit the deficiency later on as she grows up.

 

[jillio]

I agree.

Maybe this is a better way of explaining myself.

We see a deaf adult signing "I don't feel comfortable talking to hearing people."

You guys probably think "Oh well, not everyone talks well, no big deal." assuming that he had a chance to develop them.

I think "Did he get to practice enough when he was growing up?"

All without us knowing his background.

Ahhh...I see. Your inclination is to blame the individual. Hey, deaf population...how many times have you heard, "If only you tried harder, you could......."

Looks like A.G. is alive and well in philosophy.:roll:

 

[Daredevel7]

Ahhh...I see. Your inclination is to blame the individual. Hey, deaf population...how many times have you heard, "If only you tried harder, you could......."

Looks like A.G. is alive and well in philosophy.:roll:

Nah, just the environment his parents put him in.

Why bother telling our kids to try harder? Let them have fun. Screw A's. They should only get A's if they are smart enough for it to be easy to get, right?

I think the count of you comparing me to A.G. is 13 now.

 

[naisho]

yes I know you have not denied a visual form of communication for your daughter. We all know about same old L1 and L2 argument but here's what you're doing - you are attempting to use both oral + ASL together as L1 which Kat will most likely exhibit the deficiency later on as she grows up.

Watch out. I think it is better to clarify the wording on this to faire_jour or she will misunderstand, and a flamewar ensues.

She will think that we trying to prove to her "Miss Kat will have deficiencies", but much rather all of us are philosophizing/use of common rhetoric that "Miss Kat most likely will have language deficiencies".

We know there are kids who become exceptions, faire_jour seems to me (correct me if I am wrong faire,) that she hopes Miss Kat will be one of these exceptions.
That is why she is passionate on explaining how the curricula will work on her.

 

[jillio]

Nah, just the environment his parents put him in.

Why bother telling our kids to try harder? Let them have fun. Screw A's. They should only get A's if they are smart enough for it to be easy to get, right?

I think the count of you comparing me to A.G. is 13 now.

Probably won't take long to get to 14 unless you change your perspective.

 

[jillio]

Watch out. I think it is better to clarify the wording on this to faire_jour or she will misunderstand, and a flamewar ensues.

She will think that we trying to prove to her "Miss Kat will have deficiencies", but much rather all of us are philosophizing/use of common rhetoric that "Miss Kat most likely will have language deficiencies".

We know there are kids who become exceptions, faire_jour seems to me (correct me if I am wrong faire,) that she hopes Miss Kat will be one of these exceptions.
That is why she is passionate on explaining how the curricula will work on her.

Don't we all hope that for out children? Unfortunately, the reason they are called exceptions is because very few of them exist. Better to plan for the greater probability.

 

[rick48]

Then it would appear that New York has failed to follow the rest of the country in adopting the state curriculum that is used in the public schools. BTW, the state curriculum, quite obviously is not doing that well with hearing students according to national statistics.

If you were familiar with education and understood it then you would understand that although the curriculum for all schools in the state is the same how it is actually applied and taught are two completely different things. That is why I know that the education my deaf daughter received in our local public school is far superior to the education she would have recieved in the deaf school.

BTW the geoprahical area where Double Trouble and I live routinely has several schools place in the top 100 list as well as an above average number of Intel Award finalists. I have no problem with the education my children have and are recieving in our local public school.

 

[deafskeptic]

.

my hearing editor friend told me this. I was dumbfounded. now you understand why FOX news is #1 most popular news?

It figures. :P

 

[jillio]

If you were familiar with education and understood it then you would understand that although the curriculum for all schools in the state is the same how it is actually applied and taught are two completely different things. That is why I know that the education my deaf daughter received in our local public school is far superior to the education she would have recieved in the deaf school.

BTW the geoprahical area where Double Trouble and I live routinely has several schools place in the top 100 list as well as an above average number of Intel Award finalists. I have no problem with the education my children have and are recieving in our local public school.

If the state curriculum is used, and the state standards for proficiency to graduation are based on that state curriculum, then results, no matter the methodolgy employed in any given classroom, must be the same.

If you knew anything about education, you would already realize that.

 

[Jiro]

If you were familiar with education and understood it then you would understand that although the curriculum for all schools in the state is the same how it is actually applied and taught are two completely different things. That is why I know that the education my deaf daughter received in our local public school is far superior to the education she would have recieved in the deaf school.

BTW the geoprahical area where Double Trouble and I live routinely has several schools place in the top 100 list as well as an above average number of Intel Award finalists. I have no problem with the education my children have and are recieving in our local public school.

good for you but we can't say same for many. as for many - schools do not have budget and resource that yours have. So how do we fix it? hence our stance because it's a practical solution with a higher probability of success.

 

[Hear Again]

I agree.

Maybe this is a better way of explaining myself.

We see a deaf adult signing "I don't feel comfortable talking to hearing people."

You guys probably think "Oh well, not everyone talks well, no big deal." assuming that he had a chance to develop them.

I think "Did he get to practice enough when he was growing up?"

All without us knowing his background.

No offense Daredevel, but as long as a D/deaf person is happy using ASL, isn't that what counts?

By the way, instead of asking yourself whether or not they worked hard enough in speech therapy, why not feel good about the fact that they can communicate in and feel comfortable with ASL?

 

[jillio]

No offense Daredevel, but as long as a D/deaf person is happy using ASL, isn't that what counts?

By the way, instead of asking yourself whether or not they worked hard enough in speech therapy, why not feel good about the fact that they can communicate in and feel comfortable with ASL?

And quite frankly, if I saw a Deaf adult signing that statement, his oral skills or lack of them, would not be the first thought I had.

 

[naisho]

Don't we all hope that for out children? Unfortunately, the reason they are called exceptions is because very few of them exist. Better to plan for the greater probability.

Yeah, you have my agreement that for covering a majority of deaf kids; the macro consensus is always the better choice because the results are already standardized, and we have an understanding of the outcomes.

Unfortunately those who are vehement with their own way are always bound to exist. I guess that's what makes all these oral threads go round.

 

[rick48]

If the state curriculum is used, and the state standards for proficiency to graduation are based on that state curriculum, then results, no matter the methodolgy employed in any given classroom, must be the same.

If you knew anything about education, you would already realize that.

What's that new catch phrase you are using? something about twisting words to suit one's agenda? tsk, tsk seems you are being hoisted on your own petard.

Yes, the standards for the state's requirements for graduations are the samei n every school but in New York there are different types of diplomas granted depending upon a student's performance on its regents examinations. Thus, how the school teaches the curriculum does indeed produce different results.


For instance, the Deaf school ran a puff piece a few years ago touting its first ever student to graduate with a NYS Regents Diploma, whereas the vast majority of students in our local HS graduate with one. If our graduating class had only one studrent with a NYS Regents diploma, our prinicipal and BOE would be replaced!

BTW I do not need to be an expert in this area as my wife, who holds a Masters in Special Ed, has taught and presently teaches in one of those Top 100 schools, looked at how the curriculum was being applied and taught in the Deaf school and found it woefully inadequate and unacceptable for our daughter.

Also, similar to Double Trouble's experiences, our neighbor pulled his daughter out of the deaf school after 6th grade but she was so far behind she had to repeat the year in public school in order to catch up to her peers.

 

[jillio]

Yeah, you have my agreement that for covering a majority of deaf kids; the macro consensus is always the better choice because the results are already standardized, and we have an understanding of the outcomes.

Unfortunately those who are vehement with their own way are always bound to exist. I guess that's what makes all these oral threads go round.

And round and round and round!