ASL, SEE Sign, & Signed English

SxyPorkie said:
Rockdrummer..... I was born HOH but my parents were deaf... so ASL is my first langauge before I learned to speak.... I had learned about SEE I fell asleep from boredom.... ASL with facial expersions is BEST...
SxyPorkie
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Thanks Porkie. Even if I agree with you how do I go about (or should I) changing what the school is doing. I kind of agree with them in their attempts to use whatever works. However, that doesn't help me with personal communication with my son.
 
rockdrummer said:
Yes it's helpful. Thanks. From what I gather, ASL is a very efficient language for personal communication. SEE is geared towards teaching literacy and PSE is the in between. I do notice the lack of literacy in some deaf folks but it doesn't mean I cant understand them. There are rare cases that I have encounterd where no matter how many times I read what they said, I just don't understand what they are saying. So I do believe that teaching literacy is a good thing and will help a person achieve more in the world. That applies to hearing and deaf alike. IMO.
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This was from a while back but I'd like to comment on it if that's allright?

I wouldn't say literacy depends 100% on whatever sign language is used. I was mainstreamed my whole life with/by pure SEE used by the adults & educators (us kids used our own form of PSE amongst ourselves). Looking back at my fellow students I've personally concluded that parental investment and good-excellent exposure to language seemed very important, irregardless of WHAT language it was.

The reasons were: the few kids who had parents who signed well(all SEE btw) had kids who did significantly better than the kids whose parents did not sign at all. Even if there was one parent or a sibling had some, but low, signing skill, they strongly tended to have low academic/English skill. Even now as adults, those students schooled in strict SEE but had parents who did not sign still have poor literacy.. despite being educated in SEE only. It didn't make much difference if the deaf kid had good or poor oral/lipreading skills either.

None of my fellow students(and me) had deaf parents nor did any have exposure to ASL so I couldn't offer personal comments & comparsions on that. However I have met Deaf students and adults who were raised with ASL as their main speaking language & had excellent literacy- many better than mine even!

It makes sense though, as children apparently have a limited window on learning a language- those parents who did not learn sign probably gave the child no or very little exposure to any language so they didn't get any until they entered school.

Anyways, I understand wanting to make it more consistent for your child, but if you invest that much energy in communicating with your child, he already has a good start. Keep your signing skills honed & TALK with him regularly. Simple things such as shooting the breeze, asking him to tell you about his day have a huge effect. I also second encouraging reading a lot of books. Kids today are so fortunate to have closed captioning, I had to grow up without that!


Reba said:
My experience with "mainstream" education
Except for pre-school "intervention" programs, deaf children in the public schools don't seem to get any further sign language training, whether it be ASL or SEE, nor do they get training in the correct way to use interpreters. When I was on a long-term sub assignment for a middle school terp, the other staff terp and I were discussing the daily and weekly class schedules. I asked the terp when did the students get their language training. I was informed that there was no such thing as formal classes for instruction in ASL grammar, sign vocabulary building, Deaf history and culture, or how to use assistive technology and interpreters. There were no opportunities to meet, much less associate with, Deaf adults. No "Deaf" related field trips, mentoring programs, clubs, etc. The few deaf classmates that they had were the only deaf people they knew.
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Born & raised in California here, graduated in '88. That describes my upbringing & (mainstreamed)education right to the last letter. We went to schools not even a half hour from a residental school for the Deaf. Yet we(or it was just me?) didn't even know schools for the Deaf existed right until high school. And that was only because several of the students who were considered "academic failures" were transferred there instead of going on to the high school mainstreamed program where all of the kids considered "smart" went to. Yep, that's the way the teachers and educators put it to us.

Nice introduction to the larger ASL/Deaf world huh? Took me many years to get over that mental attitude.. sigh. Fortunately I've since seen the light and am trying to get immersed in the culture & improving my ASL. (any tips for Deaf person to learn ASL? I feel strange asking that but I still sign so obviously 'mainstreamed kid')
 
Eyeth said:
IMHO, the best way in achieving a high degree in English literacy is to read more. Yes, as funny as it sounds, in order to have a high degree in English ability, you need to be an excellent reader.

This should happen during elementary instruction. The DHH teacher should emphasize reading over auditory/verbal training, cursive writing, singing songs, and whatnot. Reading promotes vocabulary building, how to spot new words and derive definitions, to assimilate idioms and much more. High expectations and parential participation are essential ingredients from which a highly literate DHH person can spring forth.

Funny thing is, whenever I meet old friends from my FSD days, they always invariably remark how much time I've spent in the library, and now wished they did the same. And I would invariably wish I've spent more time participating in sports & activities, being more 'social', etc.! And we would laugh about it and move on. :)
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WELL SAID. Reading also allows a child to develop basic understanding that a particular printed word, and the sign equivilent, are both merely symbols used to represent the same context. That understanding is crucial to developing literacy.
 
SEE is suppose to make sign language easier to understand and learn. I don't like it myself because its to much like English. Sign should not be like English it should be foreign, it is a foreign language. Sign language should be foreign to everyone execept those who learn it, interpeters, and deaf people.
 
jasin said:
SEE is suppose to make sign language easier to understand and learn. I don't like it myself because its to much like English. Sign should not be like English it should be foreign, it is a foreign language. Sign language should be foreign to everyone execept those who learn it, interpeters, and deaf people.
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I'm not sure that is the intent of SEE. SEE stands for Signed Exact English which is why it's to much like english. The term "sign language" nowadays means several methods. My take is that SEE is designed to teach deaf kids exact english. Not to improve their signing skills but to help them learn literacy. I think that all would agree that using SEE for interpersonal communications (compared to ASL) is quite cumbersome.
 
SB_GB_4ever said:
I prefer PSE that is what i have learned and am still learning. For hearing people like me ASL is ver easy to sign but very hard to understand. I would go with PSE.
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That is really the whole point, and the problem with hearing people deciding policy for the education fo deaf children. You find PSE easier because you are hearing and your native language is English. Even when you use a manual language, such as PSE or SEE, you categorize with you native oral language as your reference opint. You tend to structure the signs in a way that complies with the rules of English.

ASL is a visual, spatial language, and is processed cognitively in a different manner than is an oral language. It has no oral reference point. When you attempt to extract meaning from ASL using an orally based reference language, its syntax becomes confusing.

What is easier for the hearing population is more difficult for the deaf population. Deaf individuals who are prelingually deafened, or more particulrly, deaf since birth are visual. They interpret their world visually. What makes sense in a visual mode does not readily translate to an oral auditory mode. Simply making English visable does not increase comprehension, because the sequencing is different. English can be made visable through writing, as well, but it is still dependent upon the oral auditory syntax and sequencing, and therefore is not made into a visual spatial language simply because the eye can perceive the symbols on a page. It is more than that. It has to do with the way the brain processes the inofrmation available, and the way the brain automatically categorizes and classifies the information coming in.
 
ismi said:
Can you explain what you mean by this? Do you mean that students should study the language in which they are being taught other subjects, or something else?

In response to other posters: as far as SEE being artificial ... that's true. But then, there are many creoles that have started in similar ways that have become quite popular, even to the point of becoming the native language of a statistically significant population.
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You are confused about the definition of a creole language. See is artificially created, and complies with English grammatical rules, pragmatics, and syntax. A creole language is a naturally occurring evolutionary process, and the creole language develops its own set of rules for usage that do not comply with the original language rules. Creoles are also 2nd generation, or 3rd generation evolutions of an original pidgin language.
 
cathartes said:
This was from a while back but I'd like to comment on it if that's allright?

I wouldn't say literacy depends 100% on whatever sign language is used. I was mainstreamed my whole life with/by pure SEE used by the adults & educators (us kids used our own form of PSE amongst ourselves). Looking back at my fellow students I've personally concluded that parental investment and good-excellent exposure to language seemed very important, irregardless of WHAT language it was.

The reasons were: the few kids who had parents who signed well(all SEE btw) had kids who did significantly better than the kids whose parents did not sign at all. Even if there was one parent or a sibling had some, but low, signing skill, they strongly tended to have low academic/English skill. Even now as adults, those students schooled in strict SEE but had parents who did not sign still have poor literacy.. despite being educated in SEE only. It didn't make much difference if the deaf kid had good or poor oral/lipreading skills either.

None of my fellow students(and me) had deaf parents nor did any have exposure to ASL so I couldn't offer personal comments & comparsions on that. However I have met Deaf students and adults who were raised with ASL as their main speaking language & had excellent literacy- many better than mine even!

It makes sense though, as children apparently have a limited window on learning a language- those parents who did not learn sign probably gave the child no or very little exposure to any language so they didn't get any until they entered school.

Anyways, I understand wanting to make it more consistent for your child, but if you invest that much energy in communicating with your child, he already has a good start. Keep your signing skills honed & TALK with him regularly. Simple things such as shooting the breeze, asking him to tell you about his day have a huge effect. I also second encouraging reading a lot of books. Kids today are so fortunate to have closed captioning, I had to grow up without that!




Born & raised in California here, graduated in '88. That describes my upbringing & (mainstreamed)education right to the last letter. We went to schools not even a half hour from a residental school for the Deaf. Yet we(or it was just me?) didn't even know schools for the Deaf existed right until high school. And that was only because several of the students who were considered "academic failures" were transferred there instead of going on to the high school mainstreamed program where all of the kids considered "smart" went to. Yep, that's the way the teachers and educators put it to us.

Nice introduction to the larger ASL/Deaf world huh? Took me many years to get over that mental attitude.. sigh. Fortunately I've since seen the light and am trying to get immersed in the culture & improving my ASL. (any tips for Deaf person to learn ASL? I feel strange asking that but I still sign so obviously 'mainstreamed kid')
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Very :gpost:

Everything u stated is what I have been trying to get the parents of the students at the school where I work at to understand. Most of them are so intent on making their children successful with listening and speaking skills rather than focusing on working with their children to improve their literacy skills so as a resullt, many of our students are struggling with literacy due to lack of support at home. It seems that the mentally of being able to speak and understand spoken English whether it is via lipreading or listening thru the aids, that is considered success. Unfortunately, the important of literacy is pratically ignored and it is very frustrating for many of us teachers.

We use ASL for instruction for several reasons mentioned in previous posts.

As for deaf children improving literacy skills, they need a strong first language whether it is thru auditority or visual so I believe that for a visual language, ASL should be the language rather than SEE and PSE. Then, once the child masters ASL, learning a 2nd language becomes easier.

This is a very insightful thread with great information.

As for myself, I have to agree with Skyportie..when someone signs SEE to me, I am totally lost even though English is my first language..I just can not understand it in signed form. Also, I fall asleep cuz it is hard on my eyes and my brain to constantly figure out the context of the sentences. With ASL, I am able to easily grasp the context and message being delivered to me. However, when someone writes English using ASL grammatical rules, I get lost trying to read it. I need written English to follow the grammatical rules of English. Interesting isnt it?

As for your introduction to the ASL/Deaf World..I was in the exact same shoes as u are growing up. Finally, I got immersed in the deaf culture even though I am not 100% accepted but that is fine with me. :)
 
jillio said:
That is really the whole point, and the problem with hearing people deciding policy for the education fo deaf children. You find PSE easier because you are hearing and your native language is English. Even when you use a manual language, such as PSE or SEE, you categorize with you native oral language as your reference opint. You tend to structure the signs in a way that complies with the rules of English.

ASL is a visual, spatial language, and is processed cognitively in a different manner than is an oral language. It has no oral reference point. When you attempt to extract meaning from ASL using an orally based reference language, its syntax becomes confusing.

What is easier for the hearing population is more difficult for the deaf population. Deaf individuals who are prelingually deafened, or more particulrly, deaf since birth are visual. They interpret their world visually. What makes sense in a visual mode does not readily translate to an oral auditory mode. Simply making English visable does not increase comprehension, because the sequencing is different. English can be made visable through writing, as well, but it is still dependent upon the oral auditory syntax and sequencing, and therefore is not made into a visual spatial language simply because the eye can perceive the symbols on a page. It is more than that. It has to do with the way the brain processes the inofrmation available, and the way the brain automatically categorizes and classifies the information coming in.
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I agree with u. :)
 
Any Communication Is Good Communicatio!!

I am a hearing mother of a HOH son. my baby was born with a severe hearing loss. At first this was very devistating and heart breaking only because i knew nothing of the deaf community and I had no idea of what i was supposed to do as a mother. I woke up one day quit crying and said ok....1st I need to learn sign language.. I bought books and had a tutor who was teaching me, my baby, my other son and husband see sign. I went to the local community college to learn ASL. I put my son in a Oral program because he has always babbled that told me he wanted to speak. I get mixed up with the grammical part of ASL but i understand it far better!!!!! my children do fine. I stay home and sign while speaking with my children. he will never be accepted into the deaf community but thats ok..I never want to not be able to have communication with my baby!!! Hearing aids break, get lost yadda yadda. In the end I want my son to know that i did what ever i could to help him not only in the hearing world but also I try to introduce him to the deaf community. I take him to ASL story times and play days.. Again Eveything Starts At Home... What works for me might not work for you. Any communication is good communication!!!
 
he will never be accepted into the deaf community but thats ok.
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Not nessarily. I mean there ARE some hardcore Deafies who think that anyone who has oral skills isn't "really deaf." But as long as you expose your son to Sign and everything, and don't make the mistake of falling into the "oral only is perfect" trap, he'll find quite a bit of acceptance in the deaf comminity.
 
deafdyke said:
Not nessarily. I mean there ARE some hardcore Deafies who think that anyone who has oral skills isn't "really deaf." But as long as you expose your son to Sign and everything, and don't make the mistake of falling into the "oral only is perfect" trap, he'll find quite a bit of acceptance in the deaf comminity.
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I agree. Your son will be accepted in the deaf community one way or the other.

I am not fully accepted in the deaf community but I dont give a rat's ass anymore. I have found deaf people who are like me who grew up oral only and learned ASL later so we all bonded and then I have my hubby and kids. If the extreminists do not accept me, that is their loss cuz I am a good person and have lots to offer. Not the end of the world.

However, I do not participate in the hearing world much anymore except with family or work-related issues. I am more comfortable in an signing environment than in an auditory environment due to my inability to understand large group conversations.
 
Again i think any communication is good communication. I know several people who are deaf and NO ONE in their families took the time to learn sign and they have no one!!! They isolate theirselfs and want nothing to do with any one! I do like my sons oral program but i also think ASL is just as important!!! I get people who look at me when I sign and talk to my boys in the store and my 3 year old will ask why is that lady looking at us i simply say she dont know no better her parents never taught her manners!!
 
my2boyz said:
Again i think any communication is good communication. I know several people who are deaf and NO ONE in their families took the time to learn sign and they have no one!!! They isolate theirselfs and want nothing to do with any one! I do like my sons oral program but i also think ASL is just as important!!! I get people who look at me when I sign and talk to my boys in the store and my 3 year old will ask why is that lady looking at us i simply say she dont know no better her parents never taught her manners!!
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Nodding agreement. The issue is that these children do communicate, not how they communicate.

Ignore the rude people who stare when you are out in public. Unfortunately, people act like you don't deserve privacy sometimes, and they will ask you the stupidest, most personal questions about your child.
 
Yeah i have had some of the rudest most disturbing questions asked....One lady asked me point blank "is your son retarded?" I didnt even give her a responce, i finished shopping went to the car held my baby and cried my eyes out! Where i live very few people besides elderly people wear hearing aids so we constantly get people stairing at him one lady was so close to his face when she coughed. (mind you my son is only 19 months old) I said my baby isn't here for you amusement YES THEY'E HEARING AIDS!!!
 
Mhmm, people can be so rude sometimes... There's been times where i've wanted to rip someone a new one...
 
my2boyz said:
Yeah i have had some of the rudest most disturbing questions asked....One lady asked me point blank "is your son retarded?" I didnt even give her a responce, i finished shopping went to the car held my baby and cried my eyes out! Where i live very few people besides elderly people wear hearing aids so we constantly get people stairing at him one lady was so close to his face when she coughed. (mind you my son is only 19 months old) I said my baby isn't here for you amusement YES THEY'E HEARING AIDS!!!
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I can sympathize. I have lived thru all kinds of idiotic remarks made to me. I used to take them personally but life is too short so I just ignore them or if I am in the mood, play scarcastic mind games with them. If someone was really curious and asked me a nice and appropriate question about my deafness, then I will take the time to answer it.
 
If the extreminists do not accept me,
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And overall, the extremists are dying. I believe I read that less then 5% of deaf kids are now Sign only. Which is good. B/c it means that ASL chaunvism "deafer then thou-ism" is dying. Which means in turn that anti oralism might be dying.
Mom2boyz, I think what a lot of hearing parents don't understand is that while we have some extremists who think otherwise, many Deaf people find oral skills to be very very helpful. It's just that we don't think that dhh kids should be limited to oral skills. In other words we think that dhh kids deserve a full toolbox of tools. I've noticed if hearing parents are more "pro full toolbox", their kids will be more accepted in the hearing world.
I think that the anti oral fevor comes from "once bitten twice shy" sort of thing. Some AG Bell or oral onlyiests can be rather condescending to Deaf people, and look down on ASL and things.....It's a really vicus circle.....I mean I do know some oral folks who have been turned off by Deaf culture b/c of Deafer then thou types.
 
Alot of Deaf people, like when i attend Deaf events they tell me to take my babies hearing aids off and let him be "truely Deaf" I cant, I want him to have options. Thats why I choose both HA and ASL if he becomes 10 and the HA are not what he wants by all means he can make that decision and both my husband and I will follow. In the mean time he does really well in the oral program and does even better in ASL. He's only 1 1/2. I dont know if what I'm doing is right but i have to do what i think is right until I know otherwise. I refuse any type of SSI because i never want my son to be labeled as disabled. i had this BEAUTIFUL baby and I'll take care of him. I know others don't have the means for HA and other necessities but I find resources and do what I have to!!!
 
my2boyz said:
Alot of Deaf people, like when i attend Deaf events they tell me to take my babies hearing aids off and let him be "truely Deaf" I cant, I want him to have options. Thats why I choose both HA and ASL if he becomes 10 and the HA are not what he wants by all means he can make that decision and both my husband and I will follow. In the mean time he does really well in the oral program and does even better in ASL. He's only 1 1/2. I dont know if what I'm doing is right but i have to do what i think is right until I know otherwise. I refuse any type of SSI because i never want my son to be labeled as disabled. i had this BEAUTIFUL baby and I'll take care of him. I know others don't have the means for HA and other necessities but I find resources and do what I have to!!!
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With a mom like you your son will be just fine!
 
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