ASL, SEE Sign, & Signed English

Rockdrummer, the word is peace!

Thank you for explaining what you mean with "convince", and your present position, I appreciate that.

While you are searching for hard facts and evidence about evolution of ASL, I can tell you that those of us who went to a deaf school in the old days, with teachers that sucked at something that barely looked like SEE, remember how kids learnt sign language from older students, and the older students learnt from adult deafs. Even with threats and physical violence, this process went on, and those kids learned sign language to the next generation when they got adults.

With this perspective, I think it is like a X-files episode, when someone claims that ASL evolved from hearing people. :ugh3:

For sources, I can recommend books from Gallaudet Press. They got everything, even books favoring speech. "Deaf Heritage" for example have some fascinating stories, maybe not so political, but entertaining.

Good luck in your search for the truth.
 
Thank you my friend I honestly do appreciate that. To make it clear I never said that ASL originated from hearing people but evolved with the assistance of hearing people. Actually the most comprehensive article was an exerpt from a Gallauded press article. Either way its a good learning experience for me and I thank you for your comments and insight.
 
Capmeister said:
One of your own links said this:

"In 1817, Gallaudet founded the nation's first school for the deaf. It was called American Asylum and was located in Hartford, Connecticut. Clerc was the first sign language teacher in America. Though the students used Gallaudet's form of sign language, him and Clerc also noticed that they used another form of sign language outside of the classroom. Gallaudet realized that this was their 'natural language,' and it was free of all grammar and shortened sentences down to key phrases. This 'natural language' later became known as American Sign Language.
Click to expand...

:ty: :ty: :ty: :ty:
 
flip said:
Rockdrummer, the word is peace!

Thank you for explaining what you mean with "convince", and your present position, I appreciate that.

While you are searching for hard facts and evidence about evolution of ASL, I can tell you that those of us who went to a deaf school in the old days, with teachers that sucked at something that barely looked like SEE, remember how kids learnt sign language from older students, and the older students learnt from adult deafs. Even with threats and physical violence, this process went on, and those kids learned sign language to the next generation when they got adults.

With this perspective, I think it is like a X-files episode, when someone claims that ASL evolved from hearing people. :ugh3:

For sources, I can recommend books from Gallaudet Press. They got everything, even books favoring speech. "Deaf Heritage" for example have some fascinating stories, maybe not so political, but entertaining.

Good luck in your search for the truth.
Click to expand...

:ty: :ty: :ty: :ty:
 
rockdrummer said:
It was based on a comment that I said in which I beleived (based on what I have read) that hearing (Gallaudet in particular) played a roll in the evolution of ASL. Tha'ts what sparked the conversation. It's ok and hopefully a learning process for all involved including myself.
Click to expand...

Ah, okay. Somewhere I missed that. (I admit I sometimes skim or am distracted while reading.)

I think NO one man could have played a huge role in the evolution of any langauge. Language lives in the people who use it. It evolves out of necessity and brevity and hopefully out of some amount of astheics.

Here in Michigan the sign most used for store is a modified sign for "Indian." Why? Because of the wooden Indian statues that used to stand outside most stores in Michigan's early history. My brother's sign for Sunday (which I use and forget to use the more wide spread sign with others) is an open hand where the thumb rubs away from the side of the chin twice. It's from his deaf school in North Carolina, if I remember right, and he uses it so I learned it. We use a T at the forehead (like an M for moron) to sign "twerp." This is just the common way language evolves.

I don't spend a lot of time with deaf kids, but my brother tells me that signing "Ha ha ha" has been replaced with fingerspelling LOL among many kids. ;)

Makes sense... I will fingerspell BRB for "be right back."

Unless more hearing people have been using ASL than deaf people, ASL's past and present changes are owed overwhelmingly to the deaf.

I tried like the devil to get my brother to except the sign for "all" with a Y handshape for "y'all." He refuses. Silly deafling. ;)
 
Capmeister said:
Ah, okay. Somewhere I missed that. (I admit I sometimes skim or am distracted while reading.)

I think NO one man could have played a huge role in the evolution of any langauge. Language lives in the people who use it. It evolves out of necessity and brevity and hopefully out of some amount of astheics.

Here in Michigan the sign most used for store is a modified sign for "Indian." Why? Because of the wooden Indian statues that used to stand outside most stores in Michigan's early history. My brother's sign for Sunday (which I use and forget to use the more wide spread sign with others) is an open hand where the thumb rubs away from the side of the chin twice. It's from his deaf school in North Carolina, if I remember right, and he uses it so I learned it. We use a T at the forehead (like an M for moron) to sign "twerp." This is just the common way language evolves.

I don't spend a lot of time with deaf kids, but my brother tells me that signing "Ha ha ha" has been replaced with fingerspelling LOL among many kids. ;)

Makes sense... I will fingerspell BRB for "be right back."

Unless more hearing people have been using ASL than deaf people, ASL's past and present changes are owed overwhelmingly to the deaf.

I tried like the devil to get my brother to except the sign for "all" with a Y handshape for "y'all." He refuses. Silly deafling. ;)
Click to expand...
Thanks for sharing that Capmeister. “Sign language was originated by a hearing person” was not the best way to put it. A comment I made in another post. Perhaps I should have said manual signing.. eh?? Either way, I’ve learned much from the conversation. :ty:
 
Yup, Can understand that. I'm mainstreamer. I learned SEE first in Elementary school then PSE in Highschool (TC). After I graduated, I went to bar where deaf group gathers. A deaf woman signed fast ASL and I was floored cuz I couldn't understand what she said. So I learned depth of ASL. I joined group of friends who love crazy storytelling in pure ASL. It was so much fun.

Personally, I DON'T like SEE cuz it's kinda dirty signlange. PSE is more average, general and comfortable. ASL is more of action and cool plus funny. That's IMHO. (I swings from PSE to ASL depending on other deafie's signing habit)

SEE II is much worst version of SEE. (how do you sign "butterfly" in SEE II??) I would rather to have my deaf or HoH child to learn PSE and TC b4 they learn ASL rather than SEEII. Hearing people developed it so they can understand their child in basic way but it humilate the child when they grow older when they merge into real world...

Catty
 
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