ASL, SEE Sign, & Signed English

[rockdrummer]

Huh?

Read my response to his post
http://www.alldeaf.com/765565-post255.html

 

[rockdrummer]

That wasn't a serious question. I was kidding with Cheri.

Ah yes.. humor.. almost forgot about that... lol

 

[Cheri]

Cheri, we make a choice for our children if we go with a CI or not. I'ts still a choice. As parents our children are our responsibility and as such we make choices for them all of the time. Think about the choices you make for your own children and the reasons you make those choices.

I don't make choices on non-emergency surgeries when it comes to my children. I let my children decide that.

 

[rockdrummer]

I don't make choices on non-emergency surgeries when it comes to my children. I let my children decide that.

I understand your position on the surgury aspect however there is much more than just the surgury to consider.

 

[flip]

I didn't say anything about terps but since you mention it, It's believed that

the role of an interpreter began with cave persons. A Deaf cave person would ask a hearing person to act as an interpreter for both the Deaf and hearing, cave persons (Humphrey et al., 1996: 91).

Interpreting - Academic Paper - The Importance of Sign Language Interpreters for Deaf Clients: History, Roles, Responsibilities and Relationships

Look careful at the sentence you typed: "A Deaf cave person would ask a hearing person to act as an interpreter"

It was not the hearing person who asked the deaf person if he wanted an interpreter...

The various forms of sign I speak of are American Signed English; Seeing Essential English (SEE1); Signing Exact English (SEE2); Linguistics of Visual English (LOVE); Conceptually Accurate Signed English (CASE) etc.

If you research the history of ASL as I did, you will see it was evolved by hearing people but derived from signs that originated from deaf populations. Read this history on ASL. It is consistant with several other sources. Deaf History - History of Sign Language

It's actually oposite. You have a truly vivid imagination if you find claims in those sources, that the grammars of ASL, like classifiers, was invented by hearing people. Read your sources a bit more careful, please.

Can it be you are a bit confused about the difference between "various forms of sign" and ASL?

If you check into the history of cc you will find that is not true. A Brief History of Captioned Television

It hasn't hit you that NAD and other deaf organizations maybe lurked behind the curtains? I do not find any evidence here that it is not true that deaf people demanded CC, and was heard by the politicans. I am not sure what you are trying to prove with this?

Actually I have researched the history of hearing aids and perhaps you would change your position if you checked yourself. Here are some resources.
American Chronicle: Looking at the History of Hearing Aids: The Past, Present, and Future of Hearing Aid Technology
Hearing Aid Timeline
Hearing Aids - History

???? What does those links prove, except showing the evolution of the technology itself? Hearing aids are mostly created by smart people that have lost some hearings. They work in companies like Phonak, Phillips, Starkey, etc.

Maybe you should do some studying on what "research" and "factual" means?

 

[shel90]

I'm sorry but I don't see that happening at my son's school. Perhaps this is something that occurs in pockets.

If u can give me background to what's going on at your son's school, maybe I can answer your questions better or understand where u are coming from. I remember u mentioned that your son is learning at a slow pace. Is that due to the school's doing?

 

[rockdrummer]

Look careful at the sentence you typed: "A Deaf cave person would ask a hearing person to act as an interpreter"
It was not the hearing person who asked the deaf person if he wanted an interpreter...

Never did I say that terps were brought to you by the hearing. You are the one that brought up terps. I just provided some information that I found on the history.

It's actually oposite. You have a truly vivid imagination if you find claims in those sources, that the grammars of ASL, like classifiers, was invented by hearing people. Read your sources a bit more careful, please.
Can it be you are a bit confused about the difference between "various forms of sign" and ASL?

Please re-read what I said. ASL was evolved by hearing people but the basis was derived from the deaf communities. I am agreeing with you on the roots of ASL but not on the evolution of it. I hope that is clear. If not then please research the history of ASL and draw your conclusion from that. If the sources I provided are not accurate please porvide me with sources that have differing information. I'm not really a hard guy to convince if you provide me with the information and sources that contradict what I have found. As far as various forms of sign... if you say I am confused then what would you call the things that I listed?

It hasn't hit you that NAD and other deaf organizations maybe lurked behind the curtains? I do not find any evidence here that it is not true that deaf people demanded CC, and was heard by the politicans. I am not sure what you are trying to prove with this?

Just as there is no evidence that it is true that NAD lurked. At least I have not come across it yet. Lack of a fact doesn't make it true and maybe is only specutlation. Show me sources that contradict what I provided and I will be more than happy to entertain them.

???? What does those links prove, except showing the evolution of the technology itself? Hearing aids are mostly created by smart people that have lost some hearings. They work in companies like Phonak, Phillips, Starkey, etc. Maybe you should do some studying on what "research" and "factual" means?

That statement shows me that you didn't even read through those links. If you had you would know that the hearing aid was not invented by a deaf scientist as you claim. You would find that they are not even sure exactly who invented the hearing aid. They started as horn shaped objects fashioned from wood most likely by a HOH person. Not a deaf scientist as you claim. Read through the information and if you don't agree with it, that's ok. Show me proof including sources that contradict what I have found and I am more than happy to check into it. Just stating what you belive to be true without evidence to back it up is not what I would consider a reliable source. Please don't take that personally. I always need sources to back up claims such as what you have made. I read your claims, investigated them and found sources that contradict them. Thus my response. I am open to reviewing any sources you may have that back up what you claim.

 

[rockdrummer]

To me it seems that oral skills take priority over the children's ability to acquire a full L! And develop rich lieracy skills.

I'm sorry but I don't see that happening at my son's school. Perhaps this is something that occurs in pockets.

If u can give me background to what's going on at your son's school, maybe I can answer your questions better or understand where u are coming from. I remember u mentioned that your son is learning at a slow pace. Is that due to the school's doing?

I'm not sure what questions you are referring to. My comment above was based you you saying that oral skills are taking priority. At my son's school they take the total communication approach and speach therapy is a very small piece of that. Additionally, they adjust depending on what is working. The one thing that bothers me is that his current teacher doesn't know ASL therefore I'm sure he is not being exposed to that.

 

[jillio]

Never did I say that terps were brought to you by the hearing. You are the one that brought up terps. I just provided some information that I found on the history.

Please re-read what I said. ASL was evolved by hearing people but the basis was derived from the deaf communities. I am agreeing with you on the roots of ASL but not on the evolution of it. I hope that is clear. If not then please research the history of ASL and draw your conclusion from that. If the sources I provided are not accurate please porvide me with sources that have differing information. I'm not really a hard guy to convince if you provide me with the information and sources that contradict what I have found. As far as various forms of sign... if you say I am confused then what would you call the things that I listed?
Just as there is no evidence that it is true that NAD lurked. At least I have not come across it yet. Lack of a fact doesn't make it true and maybe is only specutlation. Show me sources that contradict what I provided and I will be more than happy to entertain them.

That statement shows me that you didn't even read through those links. If you had you would know that the hearing aid was not invented by a deaf scientist as you claim. You would find that they are not even sure exactly who invented the hearing aid. They started as horn shaped objects fashioned from wood most likely by a HOH person. Not a deaf scientist as you claim. Read through the information and if you don't agree with it, that's ok. Show me proof including sources that contradict what I have found and I am more than happy to check into it. Just stating what you belive to be true without evidence to back it up is not what I would consider a reliable source. Please don't take that personally. I always need sources to back up claims such as what you have made. I read your claims, investigated them and found sources that contradict them. Thus my response. I am open to reviewing any sources you may have that back up what you claim.

I am going to have to disagree on the evolution of ASL. Hearing culture has nothing to do with the evolution of ASL. Only with the artifical forms of signs that are derived from ASL.

 

[rockdrummer]

I am going to have to disagree on the evolution of ASL. Hearing culture has nothing to do with the evolution of ASL. Only with the artifical forms of signs that are derived from ASL.

Please show me evidence of that.

 

[jillio]

Please show me evidence of that.

Show me evidence of the opposite.

 

[rockdrummer]

Show me evidence of the opposite.

I allready have but here it is again.
ASL - American Sign Language
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ridge/9672/HistoryASL.html
History of ASL
American Sign Language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
American Sign Language History
History of ASL
American Sign Language (ASL)

It's my understanding that Gallaudet was a the major player in the evolution of ASL from OFSL. To my knowledge, Gallaudet was hearing. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[jillio]

I allready have but here it is again.
ASL - American Sign Language
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ridge/9672/HistoryASL.html
History of ASL
American Sign Language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
American Sign Language History
History of ASL
American Sign Language (ASL)

It's my understanding that Gallaudet was a the major player in the evolution of ASL from OFSL. To my knowledge, Gallaudet was hearing. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Well, the way I understand it is that American sign language was already being used with the same syntax, grammar, and pragmatics. Where Gaulledat came in wa with the educational methods used to teach deaf children using their native sign language. American Sign Language did not really evolve per se, from OFSL. The one handed alphabet was adopted from OFSL, but a language structure was already in place. Gaulladet used the educational methods based on the natural language of sign. He did not originate it, nor did he cause it to evolve. He simply figured out how to use it in ways that allow educational contact across cultures.

 

[rockdrummer]

Well, the way I understand it is that American sign language was already being used with the same syntax, grammar, and pragmatics. Where Gaulledat came in wa with the educational methods used to teach deaf children using their native sign language. American Sign Language did not really evolve per se, from OFSL. The one handed alphabet was adopted from OFSL, but a language structure was already in place. Gaulladet used the educational methods based on the natural language of sign. He did not originate it, nor did he cause it to evolve. He simply figured out how to use it in ways that allow educational contact across cultures.

The way I read it was that Clerc and Gallaudet combined Old signed French (based on OFSL) and English grammar to form Old signed English also known as methodical signs. The combinations of the old methodical signs with the indigenous signs used in CT at that time are what formed ASL. There is no evidence that indigenous signs were common in different regions of America. MVSL while indigenous played a relatively minor role in the development of ASL. I suppose that technically one could argue that ASL would not exist if it weren’t for what Gallaudet brought and the local sign language of CT at the time. It’s the formation of ASL which brought a common sign language to the deaf population of America. I would suggest that Gallaudet played a major roll in that evolution.

 

[flip]

Never did I say that terps were brought to you by the hearing. You are the one that brought up terps. I just provided some information that I found on the history.

Please re-read what I said. ASL was evolved by hearing people but the basis was derived from the deaf communities. I am agreeing with you on the roots of ASL but not on the evolution of it. I hope that is clear. If not then please research the history of ASL and draw your conclusion from that. If the sources I provided are not accurate please porvide me with sources that have differing information. I'm not really a hard guy to convince if you provide me with the information and sources that contradict what I have found. As far as various forms of sign... if you say I am confused then what would you call the things that I listed?
Just as there is no evidence that it is true that NAD lurked. At least I have not come across it yet. Lack of a fact doesn't make it true and maybe is only specutlation. Show me sources that contradict what I provided and I will be more than happy to entertain them.


That statement shows me that you didn't even read through those links. If you had you would know that the hearing aid was not invented by a deaf scientist as you claim. You would find that they are not even sure exactly who invented the hearing aid. They started as horn shaped objects fashioned from wood most likely by a HOH person. Not a deaf scientist as you claim. Read through the information and if you don't agree with it, that's ok. Show me proof including sources that contradict what I have found and I am more than happy to check into it. Just stating what you belive to be true without evidence to back it up is not what I would consider a reliable source. Please don't take that personally. I always need sources to back up claims such as what you have made. I read your claims, investigated them and found sources that contradict them. Thus my response. I am open to reviewing any sources you may have that back up what you claim.

We will never agree on those matters as this is wordpicking and twistings of definitions. For example, I totally agree with you that the HOH man invented the horn. I could claim, that in the past, they was old folks with deaf ears. Today they are called aged civil engineers that have lost some hearings. There is no problem twisting facts to your statements, or mine.

If you look at the timeline of NAD at their website, CC is mentioned as milestones, with examples of contact with the goverment, while CI not is. There are only concerns about CI in that timeline. But I am sure you will find this speculative, too? You do not need to reply on this one, I just want to use this as an example on obvious statements that you are asking for evidence about.

You should of feel free to use the term "various forms of sign" if you like it, but you sometimes seems to add ASL into that basked, like you did with evolution of sign language. Another label could be "various forms of visual english". But, then, I would not be surprised if we could find out if a person are a pro-oral/pro-CI or pro-ASL/anti-CI by asking if he prefers the label "various forms of sign", or "various forms of visual english"

If you really are a guy that not is hard to convince, could I ask you about examples on where you have changed positions in the area of deafness, and why you changed that position and on what evidences?

 

[Capmeister]

The way I read it was that Clerc and Gallaudet combined Old signed French (based on OFSL) and English grammar to form Old signed English also known as methodical signs. The combinations of the old methodical signs with the indigenous signs used in CT at that time are what formed ASL. There is no evidence that indigenous signs were common in different regions of America. MVSL while indigenous played a relatively minor role in the development of ASL. I suppose that technically one could argue that ASL would not exist if it weren’t for what Gallaudet brought and the local sign language of CT at the time. It’s the formation of ASL which brought a common sign language to the deaf population of America. I would suggest that Gallaudet played a major roll in that evolution.

One of your own links said this:

"In 1817, Gallaudet founded the nation's first school for the deaf. It was called American Asylum and was located in Hartford, Connecticut. Clerc was the first sign language teacher in America. Though the students used Gallaudet's form of sign language, him and Clerc also noticed that they used another form of sign language outside of the classroom. Gallaudet realized that this was their 'natural language,' and it was free of all grammar and shortened sentences down to key phrases. This 'natural language' later became known as American Sign Language.

 

[rockdrummer]

We will never agree on those matters as this is wordpicking and twistings of definitions. For example, I totally agree with you that the HOH man invented the horn. I could claim, that in the past, they was old folks with deaf ears. Today they are called aged civil engineers that have lost some hearings. There is no problem twisting facts to your statements, or mine.

If you look at the timeline of NAD at their website, CC is mentioned as milestones, with examples of contact with the goverment, while CI not is. There are only concerns about CI in that timeline. But I am sure you will find this speculative, too? You do not need to reply on this one, I just want to use this as an example on obvious statements that you are asking for evidence about.

You should of feel free to use the term "various forms of sign" if you like it, but you sometimes seems to add ASL into that basked, like you did with evolution of sign language. Another label could be "various forms of visual english". But, then, I would not be surprised if we could find out if a person are a pro-oral/pro-CI or pro-ASL/anti-CI by asking if he prefers the label "various forms of sign", or "various forms of visual english"

If you really are a guy that not is hard to convince, could I ask you about examples on where you have changed positions in the area of deafness, and why you changed that position and on what evidences?

I have recently became aware that non ASL forms of sighning is not considered language per se but a manual means of communicating English so because of that newfound knowledge I am trying to be careful about using the term "sign language" to loosley. While ASL can be considered a form of sign SEE can't be considered a form of sign language. I understand that. I am pretty sure I said various forms of signing and not various forms of sign Language. Technically there are various forms of sign language outside of our country but that's not in the scope of my questions. When I first came to this site I came in with the ignroance of most hearing people regarding deafness and viewed it from a pathalogical perspective. I never knew it was viewed as cultural. That is another example of me being easy to convince. But make no mistake I am not just convinced by opinions. I need hard evidence or sources to back of much of what is said. I agree with you that we can argue over semantics and that is something I really don't care to do. I take things very literally so simply adding the words "maybe or I believe" would go a long way for your arguments. If not, then back them up with facts and sources. There are always things that may be subjective and that's when we can agree to disagree. Peace!

 

[rockdrummer]

One of your own links said this:

"In 1817, Gallaudet founded the nation's first school for the deaf. It was called American Asylum and was located in Hartford, Connecticut. Clerc was the first sign language teacher in America. Though the students used Gallaudet's form of sign language, him and Clerc also noticed that they used another form of sign language outside of the classroom. Gallaudet realized that this was their 'natural language,' and it was free of all grammar and shortened sentences down to key phrases. This 'natural language' later became known as American Sign Language.

Actually it was from a more comprehensive artilce on the history of ASL that stated it was the combination of methodical signs and the "natural signs" that formed ASL. I provided several links of which some are more comprehensive than others. Here is one of the more comprehensive. Read through it if you have a chance.

We may never know whether there was a commonly accepted variety or a high degree of local variation. What is clear is that the early methodical signs with their heritage in Old French Sign Language began to mix with the indigenous language which was already being used by deaf people in America. The result is what we know today as ASL

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ridge/9672/HistoryASL.html

 

[Capmeister]

"We may never know..." might be the key here. Honestly, I'm not even sure what difference it makes.

 

[rockdrummer]

"We may never know..." might be the key here. Honestly, I'm not even sure what difference it makes.

It was based on a comment that I said in which I beleived (based on what I have read) that hearing (Gallaudet in particular) played a roll in the evolution of ASL. Tha'ts what sparked the conversation. It's ok and hopefully a learning process for all involved including myself.