ASL, SEE Sign, & Signed English

Language consists of symbols, such as words or signs, and rules for their combination. Combinations of words must have syntax and semantics. Language must also have surface structure (an underlying representation) and deep structure that expresses the relationship among the ideas in a string of symbols. (That is a paraphrase of the theory proposed by Noam Chomsky, one of the leading linguists of our time).

Therefore, PSE, SEE, CS, and MCE are English, plain and simple.

ASL is not English.
 
rockdrummer said:
Tousi, I did see your post. Based on the definition I believe they are languages. I guess I am trying to find out where is the substantiation of them not being languages. Both are

Which by definition are languages. Where am I misunderstanding. Show me a source that contradicts what the widley accepted definition of language is.
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The definition you posted is not the widely accepted definition. It is simply one limited definiton found on Google.
 
jillio said:
Language consists of symbols, such as words or signs, and rules for their combination. Combinations of words must have syntax and semantics. Language must also have surface structure (an underlying representation) and deep structure that expresses the relationship among the ideas in a string of symbols. (That is a paraphrase of the theory proposed by Noam Chomsky, one of the leading linguists of our time).

Therefore, PSE, SEE, CS, and MCE are English, plain and simple.

ASL is not English.
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There was never a comparison to english. Only a question as to if they are considered language.
 
rockdrummer said:
There was never a comparison to english. Only a question as to if they are considered language.
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SEE and Cued Speech are both manual codes (tools) to visualize English.

English is the language, SEE and Cued Speech are the tools they use to visualize the language of English.
 
Banjo said:
SEE and Cued Speech are both manual codes (tools) to visualize English.

English is the language, SEE and Cued Speech are the tools they use to visualize the language of English.
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Thanks Banjo... That actually makes sense to me.
 
Go back and check the post I made at 4:16 pm yesterday. It says exactly the same thing that Banjo said in the above post. Suddenly, it makes sense?
 
rockdrummer said:
Are you saying that Merriam-Webster's definitions are not widely accepted? Google has nothing to do with it. The site is Merriam-Webster Online
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They are accepted as long as you are satisfied with a shallow, basic definition. However, when you are attempting to categorize whether a system is in fact a true language or not you have to go a bit deeper than that.
 
So, it appears that my post # 129 still stands with the added information as to the plausibility of pulling this off. Btw, thanks, Banjo and you, too, Jillo. Heck, while I'm at it, thank you, too, Rockdrummer.
 
Tousi said:
So, it appears that my post # 129 still stands with the added information as to the plausibility of pulling this off. Btw, thanks, Banjo and you, too, Jillo. Heck, while I'm at it, thank you, too, Rockdrummer.
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Yep, still stands! And, you're welcome!
 
jillio said:
Go back and check the post I made at 4:16 pm yesterday. It says exactly the same thing that Banjo said in the above post. Suddenly, it makes sense?
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Let’s see if I can wiggle my way out of this one…:rl:

Several people have echoed that point so it starts to sink in. My original question asked if there was agreement with the definition I provided and if not, to provide a source. The question on the definition was ultimately answered and that answer is quite acceptable. There were never any posts providing a source of any differing definition, which is part of what I was seeking. One of the things that motivates me to ask for sources is the forethought of knowing there will be others like me that are learning and seeking answers.

Please understand this is a learning process for me and taking information from folks on a message board is only a part of that process. For me to learn and to be convinced I need additional resources to draw upon. It would also be a great service to provide those resources when possible.

This is not to slight anyone and these are general comments and I say them with all due respect. At the end of the day I don’t personally know any of you or what your credentials are or what motivates you. While I respect your insight and opinions from my perspective they are just that and only a part of my learning process.

This conversation has taught me a few things but at the same time adds confusion and brings up questions on what happened to the educational system with regards to deaf children? Perhaps that’s a topic for another thread.
 
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The short answer would be that the educational system was switched from a deaf perspective to a hearing perspective. It has become the trend to provide services based on what the hearing believe the deaf need, rather than what the deaf are telling us they need. Very ethnocentric, and ineffectual.

As far as the lengthy conversation goes, its not a problem. I will take all the time necessary to attempt to explain and answer questions when it is obvious that one is truly trying to absorb and learn information for the benefit of a deaf child, or even in order to increase their understanding of a difference. I hope we can continue this process, rockdrummer.
 
Thanks Jillio and I do appreciate your patience and we can absolutly continue this process. I would not be here if I wasn't truly trying to learn. I have learned much here and continue to use this site as a valuable resource of information.

On the education question, do you know when this paradigm shift took place and why? Also do you believe it's wide spread? Any resources would also be appreciated.
 
I was told that SEE, CS, TC are used for educational puposes for the purpose of helping deaf/hoh children acquire reading and writing skills and they are most effective if the deaf child has developed a strong L1 language while ASL and English are languages by themselves.

I used SEE with my students again today during reading to try to model the difference between ASL and English..they are starting to understand but unable to retell what they read using ASL. They try to memorize word for word which, in other words, they are using SEE to retell the story but it doesnt show me if they comprehend what they read or not. I would ask them questions relating to the passage that they just read out loud using and they could barely answer them correctly. That's the problem with SEE in many mainstreamed programs that serve deaf children who use sign language..the teacher that I have observed or worked with (when I was an aide) marked the students as passing reading comprehension goals on their IEP or report cards if they signed the passage word for word. I could tell by their facial expressions that they seemed not to understand the context of the passage. Know what I mean? To me, it is like a hearing child reading the passage out loud halting by word for word rather than fluency. Hope that makes sense?
 
shel90 said:
I was told that SEE, CS, TC are used for educational puposes for the purpose of helping deaf/hoh children acquire reading and writing skills and they are most effective if the deaf child has developed a strong L1 language while ASL and English are languages by themselves.

I used SEE with my students again today during reading to try to model the difference between ASL and English..they are starting to understand but unable to retell what they read using ASL. They try to memorize word for word which, in other words, they are using SEE to retell the story but it doesnt show me if they comprehend what they read or not. I would ask them questions relating to the passage that they just read out loud using and they could barely answer them correctly. That's the problem with SEE in many mainstreamed programs that serve deaf children who use sign language..the teacher that I have observed or worked with (when I was an aide) marked the students as passing reading comprehension goals on their IEP or report cards if they signed the passage word for word. I could tell by their facial expressions that they seemed not to understand the context of the passage. Know what I mean? To me, it is like a hearing child reading the passage out loud halting by word for word rather than fluency. Hope that makes sense?
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Well put shel. Comprehension is the issue. Just being able to memorize and regurgitate does not mean that a student has synthesized the material in order to be able to understand and apply it in various situations.
 
jillio said:
Well put shel. Comprehension is the issue. Just being able to memorize and regurgitate does not mean that a student has synthesized the material in order to be able to understand and apply it in various situations.
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That's a general problem in all schools, sad to say.
 
shel90 said:
I used SEE with my students again today during reading to try to model the difference between ASL and English..they are starting to understand but unable to retell what they read using ASL
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I think I understand this and it seems that these kids are being taught two languages simultaniously. I have to imagine that would be a bit tough on a kid to try to learn and comprehend two languages.
 
rockdrummer said:
I think I understand this and it seems that these kids are being taught two languages simultaniously. I have to imagine that would be a bit tough on a kid to try to learn and comprehend two languages.
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Well..we have to..so they can get started on reading and writing in English. Unfortunately my students r delayed in language (ASL) cuz they couldn't pick up on spoken language that's why my class is the special ed 1st grade class..the other regular 1st grade classes, the kids can switch back and forth between both languages easily and most of them are children from deaf families or children who have benefitted from their CIs.
 
shel90 said:
Well..we have to..so they can get started on reading and writing in English. Unfortunately my students r delayed in language (ASL) cuz they couldn't pick up on spoken language that's why my class is the special ed 1st grade class..the other regular 1st grade classes, the kids can switch back and forth between both languages easily and most of them are children from deaf families or children who have benefitted from their CIs.
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Exactly. We are constantly functioning from a remedial standpoint with these kids because of language acquisition issues that affect not only their English skills, but ther reading writing, math, and critical thinking skills.
 
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