ASL, SEE Sign, & Signed English

jillio said:
Exactly. We are constantly functioning from a remedial standpoint with these kids because of language acquisition issues that affect not only their English skills, but ther reading writing, math, and critical thinking skills.
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Yea it ios hard..my students r 8 and 9 years old and still don't understand "why" nor open-ended questions. It is a challenge cuz the curriculm involves a lot of critical thinking skills. They weren't born with any congitive disabilities but they were put in oral only programs at first and when it was apparent that they weren't picking up on language as they should be, they came here to learn asl. That's another reason I don't believe in oral only programs. I have 3 students who have CIs..just wish they had been exposed to asl in those programs cuz of course their parents r just learning asl too. Makes for a tough situation for those kids and they r the ones who pay the price!
 
rockdrummer said:
I think I understand this and it seems that these kids are being taught two languages simultaniously. I have to imagine that would be a bit tough on a kid to try to learn and comprehend two languages.
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Children have a much easier time learning more than one language at the same time. I hope to be married someday and have kids. I intend to sign when I speak and so they'll grow up bilingual. Happens all the time in ethnic immigrant families.
 
shel90 said:
Yea it ios hard..my students r 8 and 9 years old and still don't understand "why" nor open-ended questions. It is a challenge cuz the curriculm involves a lot of critical thinking skills. They weren't born with any congitive disabilities but they were put in oral only programs at first and when it was apparent that they weren't picking up on language as they should be, they came here to learn asl. That's another reason I don't believe in oral only programs. I have 3 students who have CIs..just wish they had been exposed to asl in those programs cuz of course their parents r just learning asl too. Makes for a tough situation for those kids and they r the ones who pay the price!
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My brother is a big proponant of bi/bi programs. I assume you would be as well?
 
Is it true that for the most part the signs between SEE and ASL are the same with SEE adding additional signs to match english syntax? I understand that sentence structure is different between the two.
 
rockdrummer said:
Is it true that for the most part the signs between SEE and ASL are the same with SEE adding additional signs to match english syntax? I understand that sentence structure is different between the two.
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I would say more borrowed than exactly the same. See also initializes many signs to to show that a different word is used for the same comcept, wheer ASL uses markers, context, and body language to imply the same thing. Like the sign "have" in ASL is made with the closed 5 hand, and, when interpreting if that root needs to be "has" or "had" it is inferred in context. But SEE would sign "have" using the same position and motion, but use V hands for "have", s hands for "has", and "d" hands for "had".
 
rockdrummer said:
On the education question, do you know when this paradigm shift took place and why? Also do you believe it's wide spread? Any resources would also be appreciated.
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Does anyone have an answer as to when the shift in educational methods took place and for what reason? Thanks!
 
jillio said:
I would say more borrowed than exactly the same. See also initializes many signs to to show that a different word is used for the same comcept, wheer ASL uses markers, context, and body language to imply the same thing. Like the sign "have" in ASL is made with the closed 5 hand, and, when interpreting if that root needs to be "has" or "had" it is inferred in context. But SEE would sign "have" using the same position and motion, but use V hands for "have", s hands for "has", and "d" hands for "had".
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I find it very jarring when I see it. I'm not very good at the spacial part of ASL, but putting tense by context and such I am. If I want to say, "I fed the cats and took out the garbage," I'd sign "I feed cat finished, take garbage out finished." And yet, if I want to sign "I let Greg borrow your book" I wouldn't sign Greg, put him in the place in space, then sign book and move borrow from you to Greg. I'd sign "I let Greg borrow your book." I know it's a matter of practice and retraining my hearie brain, but I've been too lazy to do it. :(
 
I know what u mean...my husband still thinks in English words when he signs and it causes him to sign in SEE like, for example, when he signs "inspecting", he uses his pinky finger ("I" sign) instead of the index finger and I asked him why he kept saigning it wrong, he said when he forms his thoughts, he thinks of the English word causing him to sign by the first letter of the word rather than thinking of the action itself like I do. When I sign in ASL, I think in pictures with some English words here and there.
 
shel90 said:
I know what u mean...my husband still thinks in English words when he signs and it causes him to sign in SEE like, for example, when he signs "inspecting", he uses his pinky finger ("I" sign) instead of the index finger and I asked him why he kept saigning it wrong, he said when he forms his thoughts, he thinks of the English word causing him to sign by the first letter of the word rather than thinking of the action itself like I do. When I sign in ASL, I think in pictures with some English words here and there.
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I'm a lot like your husband, shel. LOL I think in English and try to sign it. Usually it comes out in PSE, But on occasions it can be SEE although I didn't mean for it to.

But you know my history, I'm more Oral than ASL oriented. Even though I sign, I still have problems with understanding the ASL concept.
 
shel90 said:
I know what u mean...my husband still thinks in English words when he signs and it causes him to sign in SEE like, for example, when he signs "inspecting", he uses his pinky finger ("I" sign) instead of the index finger and I asked him why he kept saigning it wrong, he said when he forms his thoughts, he thinks of the English word causing him to sign by the first letter of the word rather than thinking of the action itself like I do. When I sign in ASL, I think in pictures with some English words here and there.
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Yep, like when signing that you "have to do the dishes". Have in ASL is the concept of posessing, so you would not use that sign, you would use the sign for "must need" concept. In English, it sounds fine and is understood, but in ASL it appears that you possess the dishes. Nor would you sign do, but wash.
 
shel90 said:
I know what u mean...my husband still thinks in English words when he signs and it causes him to sign in SEE like, for example, when he signs "inspecting", he uses his pinky finger ("I" sign) instead of the index finger and I asked him why he kept saigning it wrong, he said when he forms his thoughts, he thinks of the English word causing him to sign by the first letter of the word rather than thinking of the action itself like I do. When I sign in ASL, I think in pictures with some English words here and there.
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Interesting. Do you dream in ASL, or do you just know what people are saying? I had a few ASL dreams and then realized it was very odd for me to really have language per se in my dreams, I think.

I mostly think in English, but it depends on the depth of conversation and what I'm talking about. A story about how the cat barfed on my bedroom floor and I stepped in it in the middle of the night is far more suited to being told in ASL. Last week or the week before my brother and I had been watching Planet Earth on DiscoveryHD theater and I said to him that the persistance of life is amazing. I was talking about it in an email with a friend the next day, and my mind blocked on the word "persistance." All I could think of was the sign. In English all I could muster was "stick-to-it-iveness" which isn't even a word. Made me wonder how often I think in concepts now rather than words. I don't know--who tracks such a thing.

I do know that if someone tells me something in sign or voices it to me gets forgotten so I can't remember who told me what based on how I received the information.

As well, my brother once came into my room for a book while I was sleeping and my door had been closed. Now, I'm a heavy sleeper (which is good because he stomps around) and he tried to close the door on his way out. The old door wouldn't catch so he kept slamming it, trying to get it to stay closed. I woke up and said: "What the f**k are you doing?!?!"

"Trying to close your door," he replied.

I yelled: "Stop it! It doesn't matter!"

The next morning I remembered it but didn't remember signing at all. Nor did I remember talking. I just remembered that I communicated somehow. I asked him if I signed to him, and he said yes.

Signing has become such a part of my mind that I also tend to talk to myself in sign. Hearies probably think I'm nuts. :D
 
Capmeister said:
Interesting. Do you dream in ASL, or do you just know what people are saying? I had a few ASL dreams and then realized it was very odd for me to really have language per se in my dreams, I think.

I mostly think in English, but it depends on the depth of conversation and what I'm talking about. A story about how the cat barfed on my bedroom floor and I stepped in it in the middle of the night is far more suited to being told in ASL. Last week or the week before my brother and I had been watching Planet Earth on DiscoveryHD theater and I said to him that the persistance of life is amazing. I was talking about it in an email with a friend the next day, and my mind blocked on the word "persistance." All I could think of was the sign. In English all I could muster was "stick-to-it-iveness" which isn't even a word. Made me wonder how often I think in concepts now rather than words. I don't know--who tracks such a thing.

I do know that if someone tells me something in sign or voices it to me gets forgotten so I can't remember who told me what based on how I received the information.

As well, my brother once came into my room for a book while I was sleeping and my door had been closed. Now, I'm a heavy sleeper (which is good because he stomps around) and he tried to close the door on his way out. The old door wouldn't catch so he kept slamming it, trying to get it to stay closed. I woke up and said: "What the f**k are you doing?!?!"

"Trying to close your door," he replied.

I yelled: "Stop it! It doesn't matter!"

The next morning I remembered it but didn't remember signing at all. Nor did I remember talking. I just remembered that I communicated somehow. I asked him if I signed to him, and he said yes.

Signing has become such a part of my mind that I also tend to talk to myself in sign. Hearies probably think I'm nuts. :D
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I dont recall if I did...I still think in English when thinking to myself.

I became fully fluent in ASL about 5 years ago..started learning it 10 years ago but it was very slow going for me cuz I had so many other things going on in my life which prevented me from socializing with signers as much. It wasnt until I went to Gallaudet that I picked it up rapidly.
 
jillio said:
Yep, like when signing that you "have to do the dishes". Have in ASL is the concept of posessing, so you would not use that sign, you would use the sign for "must need" concept. In English, it sounds fine and is understood, but in ASL it appears that you possess the dishes. Nor would you sign do, but wash.
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Thankfully, most of that I never learned when I started signing. I would sign "You need clean dish." I had a good first teacher who would point out how have would be wrong, and you didn't say "I got sick" because that would be "I received sick" in concept and you should sign "I sick" or "I become sick."

My brother, if he's been talking to very SEE people, will use the "i" handshape for "I" and "is" or the "b" handshape for "be" and I always tell him STOP THAT! It throws me off. Sadly, I sign "is" more and "it" more because of his influence when he moved her from college, where they were VERY SEE/PSE at college. (He once had to interpret for his SEE roommate between him and a friend who was ASL. Everyone was deaf, and he was the interpreter. :) )
 
Capmeister said:
Thankfully, most of that I never learned when I started signing. I would sign "You need clean dish." I had a good first teacher who would point out how have would be wrong, and you didn't say "I got sick" because that would be "I received sick" in concept and you should sign "I sick" or "I become sick."

My brother, if he's been talking to very SEE people, will use the "i" handshape for "I" and "is" or the "b" handshape for "be" and I always tell him STOP THAT! It throws me off. Sadly, I sign "is" more and "it" more because of his influence when he moved her from college, where they were VERY SEE/PSE at college. (He once had to interpret for his SEE roommate between him and a friend who was ASL. Everyone was deaf, and he was the interpreter. :) )
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U know what's so weird? English was my only language until around 28 years old. The only sign language that I was exposed to was ASL...never been exposed to SEE, PSE, nor CS so when I became fluent and got involved with the deaf community, I started encountering people who signed in SEE. Here is the kicker...even though my dominate language is spoken English, I cannot for the life of me really understand SEE very well...I think it is cuz whenever I see signing, the ASL center part of my brain takes over and it is like the SEE just messes up with my receptive language. I always have to switch back to English and work hard at keep it that way..I usually end up with my eyes hurting.
 
shel90 said:
I dont recall if I did...I still think in English when thinking to myself.

I became fully fluent in ASL about 5 years ago..started learning it 10 years ago but it was very slow going for me cuz I had so many other things going on in my life which prevented me from socializing with signers as much. It wasnt until I went to Gallaudet that I picked it up rapidly.
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I learned about 8 years ago. Took me about 5 months to get to where I could have a basic conversation, and about 9 months to what I'd say was about 95% fluency. (I've been told I am a natural signer.)

For those thinking I'm a jerk because my brother is 29 years old and I only learned to sign 8 years ago, he is not my blood brother. But we refer to one another as brothers, and that's how we see each other. I met Josh on the internet about 9 years ago. We both had the same outlook on things, a lot of common interests, like the same kinds of women (whadda ya want--it's often what guys talk about), and so on. We had been chatting on AOL and asked him what music he liked. He said none--he was deaf. My response was, for him, unusual. I said: "Really? That's cool!" All too often people answered: "Oh, I'm sorry." :)

Well, he went home for thanksgiving (he'd been at college) and I was bored at work (waiting for some project to get going and having nothing to do until it did). We chatted about 8 or so hours a day for two weeks, and just became really good friends. When he told me he took a book to thanksgiving dinner because only his mother really signed (and her sign stopped progressing past the time he went away to school at about age 12) I was just pissed off. When Christmas time came around, and some of the same topics came up (being bored for Christmas dinner) I remember I said, "look, you're like a little brother to me, and I promise you this--I'm going to learn how to sign, and when I get married I'll ask my wife to learn, and we'll teach our kids, and you'll always have family to go to for Thanksgiving where you don't need to read a book because you can't talk to people."

Well, I've not yet met Miss Right so I'm not yet married, and so have no kids, but I at least made good on learning to sign. After college, he moved up here to learn how to build computers so he could do something to make money while trying to write for a living (I am a published author, so said I'd help with that, too). After being fired from a computer job for essentially being deaf while on duty (the new manager there didn't like writing and didn't like that he couldn't answer the phone), I suggested he try to get a job at the Michigan School for the Deaf. He became a substitute teacher there, and eventually started working toward his degree in education.

I know I'm way off topic now, but I so often refer to Josh as my brother that to me, he is that--and yet we had different parents so I figured people shouldn't wonder. I don't get along with my real sibling, but refer to Josh as my little brother, and some other very close friends as my big brother and sister. To me, water is thicker than blood. ;)
 
Capmeister said:
I learned about 8 years ago. Took me about 5 months to get to where I could have a basic conversation, and about 9 months to what I'd say was about 95% fluency. (I've been told I am a natural signer.)

For those thinking I'm a jerk because my brother is 29 years old and I only learned to sign 8 years ago, he is not my blood brother. But we refer to one another as brothers, and that's how we see each other. I met Josh on the internet about 9 years ago. We both had the same outlook on things, a lot of common interests, like the same kinds of women (whadda ya want--it's often what guys talk about), and so on. We had been chatting on AOL and asked him what music he liked. He said none--he was deaf. My response was, for him, unusual. I said: "Really? That's cool!" All too often people answered: "Oh, I'm sorry." :)

Well, he went home for thanksgiving (he'd been at college) and I was bored at work (waiting for some project to get going and having nothing to do until it did). We chatted about 8 or so hours a day for two weeks, and just became really good friends. When he told me he took a book to thanksgiving dinner because only his mother really signed (and her sign stopped progressing past the time he went away to school at about age 12) I was just pissed off. When Christmas time came around, and some of the same topics came up (being bored for Christmas dinner) I remember I said, "look, you're like a little brother to me, and I promise you this--I'm going to learn how to sign, and when I get married I'll ask my wife to learn, and we'll teach our kids, and you'll always have family to go to for Thanksgiving where you don't need to read a book because you can't talk to people."

Well, I've not yet met Miss Right so I'm not yet married, and so have no kids, but I at least made good on learning to sign. After college, he moved up here to learn how to build computers so he could do something to make money while trying to write for a living (I am a published author, so said I'd help with that, too). After being fired from a computer job for essentially being deaf while on duty (the new manager there didn't like writing and didn't like that he couldn't answer the phone), I suggested he try to get a job at the Michigan School for the Deaf. He became a substitute teacher there, and eventually started working toward his degree in education.

I know I'm way off topic now, but I so often refer to Josh as my brother that to me, he is that--and yet we had different parents so I figured people shouldn't wonder. I don't get along with my real sibling, but refer to Josh as my little brother, and some other very close friends as my big brother and sister. To me, water is thicker than blood. ;)
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Wow! That is a GREAT story! I can understand about water being thicker than blood..I was lucky to have a biological deaf brother but I am much closer to my deaf best friend whom I have known since I was a year old when we were placed in the oral deaf program. I call her my sister and she calls me her sister. We are family even though we are not blood related. :)

Your story kinda brings tears to my eyes...tears of happiness not sorrow. :giggle:
 
shel90 said:
Wow! That is a GREAT story! I can understand about water being thicker than blood..I was lucky to have a biological deaf brother but I am much closer to my deaf best friend whom I have known since I was a year old when we were placed in the oral deaf program. I call her my sister and she calls me her sister. We are family even though we are not blood related. :)

Your story kinda brings tears to my eyes...tears of happiness not sorrow. :giggle:
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Awww, that's sweet. :) Yeah, I know actually quite a few people who, like me, have built a family out off friends more than relatives. My big sister and bro have three kids who call me uncle and I consider them my nephews and neice... it's just how we feel about one another, and really blood ties don't matter.

You can't pick your relatives, just your friends, so often one ends up being closer to friends.
 
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