ASL, SEE, PSE, etc.

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Berry said:
...What really blows me away is that boys and girls sign differently.
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Just like spoken languages. :) Boys and girls sign/verbalize differently, as do men and women, old and young, black and white, northern and southern, rural and urban, etc.
 
Reba said:
Just like spoken languages. :) Boys and girls sign/verbalize differently, as do men and women, old and young, black and white, northern and southern, rural and urban, etc.
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You beat me to it by about 10 minutes, LOL! :giggle:
 
Berry said:
I actually agree with everything you say. No one language is better than another, but some languages seem better suited to one purpose than another. People say French is the language of diplomats, English the language of science, and Spanish the language of love. There are things I can express with ease in Spanish or ASL, which are second languages to me, that I have great difficulty in expressing in my native tongue, English.

I am actually against anyone doing anything for someone else "for their own good".

At least one hard line user of ASL drives me up the wall. She is a relative of mine. I am older. Some of the signs I use naturally are older. When I learned sign language the signs for "and", "because", "that", "for", and "for - for" were normal signs. They were around long before SEE and when I learned them SEE had not been invented yet. But whenever I use one of those she tells me "Don't use that sign. It is not ASL it is SEE."





I love linguistics: have never studied language acquisition ( Don't have the time right now either) -- But please can you give me a couple of things to read that would give me a solid handle on this subject?




No, they wouldn't, but in an aside, English could do with a solid dose of influence from ASL. One of the barriers to teaching ASL to hearing people is to get them to realize how many words we use in every sentence that have no real valid reason for their existence.

Learning a second language enables us to look at our native language in a new, fresh light.





That is sad.





This is what I think happens naturally when two or more languages mix freely.

What really blows me away is that boys and girls sign differently.
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I'm sure that shel90 can provide you with some excellent resources, as well, but thought I would offer you a couple of my own:

Language, Cognition, and the Brain: Insights from Sign Language Research by Karen Emmorey (Lawrence Erlbaum Assoc. 2002), and Individual Differences & Unviversals in Language Learning Aptitude, edited by Karl Diller (Newbury House, 1981).

The second one is an older book, but is still very valid and informative.
 
Reba said:
It's not supposed to. ASL is a language separate from American English. It's like saying "German doesn't follow the grammar of written English." It's not supposed to because it's a separate language. People who are native speakers of German have to learn the grammar for English if they want to become fluent in English as a second language. That's what ASL users do. They learn English grammar as a second language.



It's not supposed to be. German isn't good English either. That's the same concept. German is good German but it's not good English.



That's one of the major sticking points of SEE. Who are "they" and what right to do "they" have to tamper with someone's language? I don't think American English speakers would quietly accept some "experts" from Mexico trying to "improve" our language to make it conform more closely to Spanish. That's not improving; that's tampering.



Again, who are "they" and who gave them the right to change someone else's language? Doing "what's best for deaf people" is a paternalistic 19th Century viewpoint that many people resent. Suppose someone suggested "doing what's best for black people" whether or not they liked it? There would be rioting in the streets.



That's how some ASL Deaf feel about SEE. They feel that ASL was taken away from deaf children, and were taught only SEE for many years. That's why it's such a sensitive subject.



I also believe that no one should criticize another for the signs that they use. :)

The differences just need to be clearly understood so people can make educated choices. ASL is the native language of American Deaf, SEE is an invented manual mode of English, and PSE is an adaptation of ASL on a long continuum used to bridge two language groups (ASL signers and English speakers). (Those are just summary definitions.)
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U explained it better than I did but good posting, Reba. :)
 
Reba said:
It's not supposed to. ASL is a language separate from American English. It's like saying "German doesn't follow the grammar of written English." It's not supposed to because it's a separate language. People who are native speakers of German have to learn the grammar for English if they want to become fluent in English as a second language. That's what ASL users do. They learn English grammar as a second language.
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I know that Reba, I'm just stating the fact nothing more nothing less.


That's one of the major sticking points of SEE. Who are "they" and what right to do "they" have to tamper with someone's language?.
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tampering?? What's wrong with having another manual communication? I don't understand what's the big deal for adding another manual communication?


I'm not going to go back and forth with this anymore, this is just getting too ridiculous. :roll:
 
Cheri said:
tampering?? What's wrong with having another manual communication? I don't understand what's the big deal for adding another manual communication?
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It's tampering because it takes an existing language (ASL) and makes artificial changes to it. ASL is not just a "manual communication"; it is a language. Therefore, SEE is not "another" manual communication. SEE is another mode of an existing language (English) that has incorporated the alphabet and some signs of a second existing language (ASL) to create a hybrid system. If the creators of SEE wanted people to use English they could have used the already existing Rochester method, or they could have created their own gestures the way cueing designers did.

"What's wrong with having another manual communication?"
I think we can all easily see the biggest "wrong" right here in the forum. Since the creation of SEE, the Deaf community now has yet another source of division. One of the reasons that the Deaf "community" doesn't have as much political clout as other groups is its disunity. Oral vs. manual, CI vs. non-CI, ASL vs. SEE, cueing vs. non-cueing, etc. The creation of SEE didn't bring the Deaf community together; it created yet another division.

But all that being said, I still firmly believe that no one has the right to criticize the signs (and/or voicing) that another individual uses. We each have our own preferences but that doesn't mean we look down our noses at others.
 
Reba said:
"What's wrong with having another manual communication?"

I think we can all easily see the biggest "wrong" right here in the forum. Since the creation of SEE, the Deaf community now has yet another source of division. One of the reasons that the Deaf "community" doesn't have as much political clout as other groups is its disunity. Oral vs. manual, CI vs. non-CI, ASL vs. SEE, cueing vs. non-cueing, etc. The creation of SEE didn't bring the Deaf community together; it created yet another division.
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This is a very important point. In a world where there are basically two types of power, money and numbers, having a cohesive group with an agreed upon agenda is paramount.

It falls back upon two of my favorite ad hocs:

"One man with money makes a majority" and "United we stand, divided we fall".
 
Reba said:
"What's wrong with having another manual communication?"
I think we can all easily see the biggest "wrong" right here in the forum. Since the creation of SEE, the Deaf community now has yet another source of division. One of the reasons that the Deaf "community" doesn't have as much political clout as other groups is its disunity. Oral vs. manual, CI vs. non-CI, ASL vs. SEE, cueing vs. non-cueing, etc. The creation of SEE didn't bring the Deaf community together; it created yet another division.

QUOTE]

How much more can a culture get divided? It is really unfortunate that all these hearing "experts" keep coming up with all these different language modes.
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I know I'm jumping in on this thread a little too late, but... here's my view.

I personally find SEE annoying... hard on signer and receiver. I personally use PSE, that's just how I was taught with my upbringing in the hearing world.

As for ASL, I wouldn't mind learning more... it is quicker, ya know...
 
DEAFdotDORK said:
I know I'm jumping in on this thread a little too late, but... here's my view.

I personally find SEE annoying... hard on signer and receiver. I personally use PSE, that's just how I was taught with my upbringing in the hearing world.

As for ASL, I wouldn't mind learning more... it is quicker, ya know...
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That's how I feel with SEE..it is hard on me to make sense of the message being conveyed and I have to work hard to keep ASL from taking over when someone is signing in SEE ...otherwise I would never understand them. I have to constantly think in English for me to understand SEE and that is just as much work as lipreading is for me. I dont have to do a lot of mental work with ASL.
 
Berry said:
This is a very important point. In a world where there are basically two types of power, money and numbers, having a cohesive group with an agreed upon agenda is paramount.

It falls back upon two of my favorite ad hocs:

"One man with money makes a majority" and "United we stand, divided we fall".
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Excellent synopsis of conflict theory!:giggle:
 
shel90 said:
That's how I feel with SEE..it is hard on me to make sense of the message being conveyed and I have to work hard to keep ASL from taking over when someone is signing in SEE ...otherwise I would never understand them. I have to constantly think in English for me to understand SEE and that is just as much work as lipreading is for me. I dont have to do a lot of mental work with ASL.
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And its a division created, as have all divisions within the deaf community, by the hearing, as it is the hearing who tampered with ASL and came up with the articficial system known as SEE.
 
jillio said:
I'm sure that shel90 can provide you with some excellent resources, as well, but thought I would offer you a couple of my own:

Language, Cognition, and the Brain: Insights from Sign Language Research by Karen Emmorey (Lawrence Erlbaum Assoc. 2002), and Individual Differences & Unviversals in Language Learning Aptitude, edited by Karl Diller (Newbury House, 1981).

The second one is an older book, but is still very valid and informative.
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Thank you.
 
jillio said:
And its a division created, as have all divisions within the deaf community, by the hearing, as it is the hearing who tampered with ASL and came up with the articficial system known as SEE.
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I think it is time for hearing people to stop tampering with ASL and Deaf education.
 
jillio said:
I'm sure that shel90 can provide you with some excellent resources, as well, but thought I would offer you a couple of my own:

Language, Cognition, and the Brain: Insights from Sign Language Research by Karen Emmorey (Lawrence Erlbaum Assoc. 2002), and Individual Differences & Unviversals in Language Learning Aptitude, edited by Karl Diller (Newbury House, 1981).

The second one is an older book, but is still very valid and informative.
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Hey Berry, I will have to go thru my boxes in the basement to find those resources. I will try to make time at my work too.
 
DEAFdotDORK said:
I personally find SEE annoying.
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Well, I personally finds some Deaf people (referred to as "big D Deaf") annoying their behaviors and attitudes. (a particular group of deaf people who share a language American Sign Language (ASL) and It's own culture) those kind of people do not like other deaf people who uses speech, wears cochlear implants and so on. The point is that they are not very accepting people, the fact is we are one big family because we are all deaf, even if we don't share the same common ancestry since the majority of us come from hearing families.
 
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