ASL in public schools??

jillio said:
Yes, results are being observed, and studies are being conducted. The problem is, at this time, because it is a relatively new concept, (late 90's,as it is presented today, although original deaf ed was decidedly bi-bi), we need longitudinal data. That is not available at this time because of the newness.

The data that is collected now is varied because children are entering into a bi-bi environment at different point with differing prior educational experiences. The best indications we have currently are that, when a baseline is done on an individual, and progress is charted, a child in a bi-bi environment will make greater progress than a child that receives remedial services in the mainstream.

We might also look to the past for an indication of how a child that is educated in a bi-bi environment from k-12 will benefit. During the heyday of deaf education at deaf schools, students were testing out on par with hearing children. Prior to the days that the oralists attempted to take over and dictate the methods of education for deaf students, the deaf schools were doing an excellent job of graduating students well prepared to enter into adult life. Only after the oralists took over, forbid sign language, and put deaf teachers out of work did we begin to see problems in the quality of education received by deaf students. Based on this history, it is not illogical to believe that a return to a bi-bi philosophy will provide the same results for a child that is educated in that environment from k-12.
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For reference can you provide any citations or studies that back this up?

thanks
 
rockdrummer said:
For reference can you provide any citations or studies that back this up?

thanks
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I'll look for some, but I haven't directly quoted any studies, just stated what the knowlege that time studying has provided. When you guys continually ask for references, you need to understand that I do not keep a copy of every single research article I read, and therefore, do not have citaiton information at my fingertips for all articles. Nor do I have a copy of every book I have read that has provided me with the information necessary to have the knowledge in certain areas. If I retained a copy of every single article and book, I would have to live in a library.

But, for you, RD, I will look for some articles that I can provide you citations for.
 
jillio said:
I'll look for some, but I haven't directly quoted any studies, just stated what the knowlege that time studying has provided. When you guys continually ask for references, you need to understand that I do not keep a copy of every single research article I read, and therefore, do not have citaiton information at my fingertips for all articles. Nor do I have a copy of every book I have read that has provided me with the information necessary to have the knowledge in certain areas. If I retained a copy of every single article and book, I would have to live in a library.

But, for you, RD, I will look for some articles that I can provide you citations for.
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I appreciate your time. It's not just for me but for others that read these threads in the future. You have to understand that for something that is this important (at least to me it is) folks should be able to have credible information to base decisions on. It's not that I don't believe what you and others say, it's that it would only be fair for other people to be able to have the original studies so they may consider them for validity just as you do when others cite reference studies. There is nothing wrong with that. I believe that anything other than a credible study that meets criteria set forth by peers in the profession should not be taken that seriously. IMHO.
 
rockdrummer said:
I appreciate your time. It's not just for me but for others that read these threads in the future. You have to understand that for something that is this important (at least to me it is) folks should be able to have credible information to base decisions on. It's not that I don't believe what you and others say, it's that it would only be fair for other people to be able to have the original studies so they may consider them for validity just as you do when others cite reference studies. There is nothing wrong with that. I believe that anything other than a credible study that meets criteria set forth by peers in the profession should not be taken that seriously. IMHO.
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Not a problem. The problem with using studies and research rather than actual experience and knowledge of that research, is that the majority of people looking for answers do not have any experience or education in actually reading and interpreting a study of this nature. These research projects are written for professionals, and they are written in a manner that assume a professional working knowledge of research design and statistical analysis. However, as I said, I will be glad to locate some articles for you. You might want to keep in mind, as well, that the reason I have numerous artices and research available to me is because I am a professional, and this is information that is not generally available to the general public.

That is not to say that I don't think you are capable of understanding the research. Just that when someone not familar with methods, etc. attempts to decipher a professional research paper, it creates more misunderstanding that it alleviates. We've seen that happen here on mumerous occassions.
 
rockdrummer said:
I appreciate your time. It's not just for me but for others that read these threads in the future. You have to understand that for something that is this important (at least to me it is) folks should be able to have credible information to base decisions on. It's not that I don't believe what you and others say, it's that it would only be fair for other people to be able to have the original studies so they may consider them for validity just as you do when others cite reference studies. There is nothing wrong with that. I believe that anything other than a credible study that meets criteria set forth by peers in the profession should not be taken that seriously. IMHO.
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I went to the one BIBI site and it was great. The biggest thing they are asking for is some support and PR. There are people right here in Oregon that don't even know that we have a Deaf school. Like Jillio said, their first encounters are medical profs who steer them to the audist and oralism, and of course to CIs.

It is up to those who are concerned to educate others. That is why these threads are so important.

I still think that we could try to get the attention of the presidential candidates and ask for a meeting. By the time you get the meeting, you need to have your information together and a proposal to be considered.

Do you see why I went the route of trying to introduce ASL for free into the younger grades? How can they argue with something that is free? After it is proven to be successful, any volunteers, like seniors and Codas would turn into paid employees.

I don't want to water ASL down, but to at least get it started, so it is just considered a normal thing to the little hearing kids, I thought we would have to look at any arguments that could be made against it,, especially the money things.

I was going to introduce a petition to the community where I live, so I could get enough signatures from hearing parents that want their kids to have both a visual and oral language. There are lots of regular people out here that I have spoken to that would get behind this. If we could get one year of an experimental program put into about ten schools, it would give us the data to prove that ASL can be taught easily to little kids, and that it would be worth the expense of hiring people to teach it in the future.

Look at all of the other kids that would benefit from a visual language... Apraxic, or asphasic kids, and autistic kids, MMRs, Down Syndrome sufferers, and adults with those problems would benefit too. Those folks who have had a stroke can often use sign to communicate... A visual language also helps to reinforce English and oral skills... The studies are already proving that it would benefit more than the Deaf community. The question is how to get it past the oralists who insist that it is a bad thing.

This is why I think that the Deaf community needs to get the ear of the candidates,, and then tell them some of the issues you see that need to be worked on. It hasn't been since Galladet that you have been really heard from.. I think that the candidates would love to try to get your votes by talking about the issues.
 
jillio said:
Not a problem. The problem with using studies and research rather than actual experience and knowledge of that research, is that the majority of people looking for answers do not have any experience or education in actually reading and interpreting a study of this nature. These research projects are written for professionals, and they are written in a manner that assume a professional working knowledge of research design and statistical analysis. However, as I said, I will be glad to locate some articles for you. You might want to keep in mind, as well, that the reason I have numerous artices and research available to me is because I am a professional, and this is information that is not generally available to the general public.

That is not to say that I don't think you are capable of understanding the research. Just that when someone not familar with methods, etc. attempts to decipher a professional research paper, it creates more misunderstanding that it alleviates. We've seen that happen here on mumerous occassions.
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I don't think you are giving folks enough credit. You may be suprised at how much from the studies is actually understood not to mention the learning opportunities in understanding such things. Out of curiousity, what brought you to the profession you are in? Was it the fact that you have a deaf child that motivated you?
 
dreamchaser said:
I went to the one BIBI site and it was great. The biggest thing they are asking for is some support and PR. There are people right here in Oregon that don't even know that we have a Deaf school. Like Jillio said, their first encounters are medical profs who steer them to the audist and oralism, and of course to CIs.

It is up to those who are concerned to educate others. That is why these threads are so important.

I still think that we could try to get the attention of the presidential candidates and ask for a meeting. By the time you get the meeting, you need to have your information together and a proposal to be considered.

Do you see why I went the route of trying to introduce ASL for free into the younger grades? How can they argue with something that is free? After it is proven to be successful, any volunteers, like seniors and Codas would turn into paid employees.

I don't want to water ASL down, but to at least get it started, so it is just considered a normal thing to the little hearing kids, I thought we would have to look at any arguments that could be made against it,, especially the money things.

I was going to introduce a petition to the community where I live, so I could get enough signatures from hearing parents that want their kids to have both a visual and oral language. There are lots of regular people out here that I have spoken to that would get behind this. If we could get one year of an experimental program put into about ten schools, it would give us the data to prove that ASL can be taught easily to little kids, and that it would be worth the expense of hiring people to teach it in the future.

Look at all of the other kids that would benefit from a visual language... Apraxic, or asphasic kids, and autistic kids, MMRs, Down Syndrome sufferers, and adults with those problems would benefit too. Those folks who have had a stroke can often use sign to communicate... A visual language also helps to reinforce English and oral skills... The studies are already proving that it would benefit more than the Deaf community. The question is how to get it past the oralists who insist that it is a bad thing.

This is why I think that the Deaf community needs to get the ear of the candidates,, and then tell them some of the issues you see that need to be worked on. It hasn't been since Galladet that you have been really heard from.. I think that the candidates would love to try to get your votes by talking about the issues.
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I think what you are proposing is commendable. I would also back it up with studies that will prove it's worth. I also agree with you that a visual language would benefit not only deaf folks but also others that are unable to speak for whatever reason or are unable to grasp spoken language.
 
I have not read all replies, but I will have to say...

Language is language.
It doesn't matter if it is spoken, signed, written, drawn, interpretively danced, or tapped out on a drum. It is still a viable language and can be structured in similar ways.

People need to start recognizing that the language they speak is not the only one in existence (especially a lot of hearing/seeing people)

So yes, ASL taught properly in schools = good thing. And not having 'funding' is partly bullshit, a lot just don't want to give in, in my opinion.

And furthermore, I think the way many schools are taught needs to be changed, period. They are like robot factories.
I think if there were some advance alien civilization from space, and they visited and saw us, they would say "You people have a LONG way to go."
 
rockdrummer said:
I don't think you are giving folks enough credit. You may be suprised at how much from the studies is actually understood not to mention the learning opportunities in understanding such things. Out of curiousity, what brought you to the profession you are in? Was it the fact that you have a deaf child that motivated you?
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Like I said, I was not insinuating that things like the purpose of the study, or the stated results could not be understood. But there is more to interpreting the actual study than those two sections, and it's validity and generalizability, as well as limitations and strengths are dependent upon a foudational understanding of research methods, design, sample selection, instruments used for assessment, statistical analysis, etc. I apologize if I offended. I know, from personal experience, that there were many things I did not know to take into consideration until I gained that knowledge. It is not to insinuate that anyone is incapable of understanding, just that misunderstanding occurs from lack of critical analysis because one has not had the opportunity to learn how to critically evaluate the research.

Yes, my child was my motivation. That, and the fact that there were so many out there who were going without needed services and opportunities to develop to their whole potential because parents either did not have the time,the stamina, or the resources to fight the same fight I did.
 
jenni-m said:
I have not read all replies, but I will have to say...

Language is language.
It doesn't matter if it is spoken, signed, written, drawn, interpretively danced, or tapped out on a drum. It is still a viable language and can be structured in similar ways.

People need to start recognizing that the language they speak is not the only one in existence (especially a lot of hearing/seeing people)

So yes, ASL taught properly in schools = good thing. And not having 'funding' is partly bullshit, a lot just don't want to give in, in my opinion.

And furthermore, I think the way many schools are taught needs to be changed, period. They are like robot factories.
I think if there were some advance alien civilization from space, and they visited and saw us, they would say "You people have a LONG way to go."
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You are absolutely correct on all points. Since No Child Left Behind, schools have become even more of a "robot factory". It is all about getting a child to memorize by rote so that they can spit it back out on a test. Critical thinking skills are totally ignored in today's eductional environment. We are turning out students who have memorized facts, but are completely unable to apply those facts to a real life situation in a creative and useful manner. That is not education.
 
jillio said:
You are absolutely correct on all points. Since No Child Left Behind, schools have become even more of a "robot factory". It is all about getting a child to memorize by rote so that they can spit it back out on a test. Critical thinking skills are totally ignored in today's eductional environment. We are turning out students who have memorized facts, but are completely unable to apply those facts to a real life situation in a creative and useful manner. That is not education.
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True. No matter how much the "educators" deny it, they are "teaching to the test." I think you know what I mean.

Hardly anything they learn one year is remembered the next year, much less used in adult life. What a waste.
 
Reba said:
True. No matter how much the "educators" deny it, they are "teaching to the test." I think you know what I mean.

Hardly anything they learn one year is remembered the next year, much less used in adult life. What a waste.
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Yes, I know exactly what you mean, and we are doing our students a great disservice in the process. The thread on the neccessity of developmental courses per placement testing is a prime example of such.
 
Reba said:
True. No matter how much the "educators" deny it, they are "teaching to the test." I think you know what I mean.

Hardly anything they learn one year is remembered the next year, much less used in adult life. What a waste.
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I am trying so hard not to be that kind of "educator"..I hope I am not.
 
shel90 said:
I am trying so hard not to be that kind of "educator"..I hope I am not.
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Hey there Shel, I have a feeling you are one of the best. I really mean that.

Oh, BTW, I posted those addresses for the candidates in a new thread,, called: IF you want hearies to hear you, get involved, sorry it took me so long to get it done.

I have already written some email to the candidates, and I called my state Rep, Darlene Hooley this morning. :)
 
This should be bi-lingual country.

Then, there would not be separate deaf and hearing culture but one american culture. This would be good for especially children deaf of hearing parents and hearing children of deaf parents.
 
RilianSharp said:
This should be bi-lingual country.

Then, there would not be separate deaf and hearing culture but one american culture. This would be good for especially children deaf of hearing parents and hearing children of deaf parents.
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Hi:) Ya know, I think that this country would only benefit from a visual and a spoken communication system,, BUT I am a hearing grandma, with a deaf grandchild, and I just don't fit in this conversation.... Maybe, one day,, there will be a credible person that comes to AD and can rally people to put ASL into the schools,,,,,,, even if they have to volunteer their time at first to get it started

Hearies can only do so much.... But, I believe with all of my heart, that if Deaf folks don't start standing up for the new generation of kids coming through the system, then they will repeat the history of the AGBELLL hope to anihalate the Deaf community... Maybe not this year,,, but dang,, We are headed towards Hitlerism with our politics, and he killed everything he didn't like... I am sorry,, maybe I am crazy,,, but ya know, History will repeat itself if people just sit on their freeeeeeeking hands and cruz the net for fun.. but won't get involved in real discussions........ Please forgive me if that sounds offensive, but.............. think about it????????????? Did you ever believe that one president coiuld kill our privacy rights, and invade a country and kill nearly a million innocent people?? If they can do that,, then who is safe????????????????
 
RilianSharp said:
This should be bi-lingual country.

Then, there would not be separate deaf and hearing culture but one american culture. This would be good for especially children deaf of hearing parents and hearing children of deaf parents.
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Actually, bilingualism does not result in assimilation of one culture into another. Because the two lanugages are used (bilingual) two cultures are maintained (bicultural). One only ends up with a single culture when those with other languages, values, and norms are forced to assimilate into the majority culture, and all become unilingual.
 
jillio said:
Actually, bilingualism does not result in assimilation of one culture into another. Because the two lanugages are used (bilingual) two cultures are maintained (bicultural). One only ends up with a single culture when those with other languages, values, and norms are forced to assimilate into the majority culture, and all become unilingual.
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You realize I mean that everyone should learn a sign language, right?

Also, it would not be a sudden change. It would allow for change, though, given that people do wish to keep their families together.
 
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