ASL in public schools??

Meggie2 said:
Actually I would volunteer. I have American Sign Language class 5th period class. My teacher doesn't sign very well and I have to help her. I was only one have to correct her even though she doesn't like it. I teach ASL at Church and at school when I have time volunteerly.
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Thanks so much for your effort. I try to teach little bits to anyone who will listen,, and they love it... especially the little kids.

I am only in the end of my second year, and I am not really confident in my ability with grammar. I start out in ASL grammar but sometimes switch to PSE in the middle of a story.. I am workin on that... But I help everyone I can with vocab. Next term I may help tutor for the first level classes. Any little bit helps. I think that as kids get older, they will learn the more technical parts of the language structure, but little kids need to at least know things like terms for toilet, and play terms and such to be able to establish a relationship in school... I just think that if they were exposed early enough, they would never develop prejudisms.

But how you do that, I don't know.. I do think that if it was just expected in every school from an early age, it would perpetuate itself. The kids would think it was normal just like brushing their teeth or eating if it were taught everywhere across the country. But some Deaf folks here have enlightened me that it is not so simple as I was hoping. Some think that ASL would get watered down... there are lots of things in this thread that they disagreed with ,, so I don't know if it is a good idea or not.. After all, it is their language.
 
shel90 said:
It just seems like you didnt have faith cuz you kept questioning it or saying that the results were mixed...just gave me the feeling. I have nothing against that if u dont feel confident in it. If I was in your shoes or wasnt in the field of Deaf ed, maybe I would feel the same way but because I am in it full time and I see the differences between it and the TC programs. Maybe those Deaf people who called it a joke were really in TC programs but thought their programs were BiBi because the BiBi approach is relatively new. If that's the case, then I agree with them about TC approach being a joke. I have seen and worked in TC programs...I wasnt impressed with them at all. Just my opinion. I guess it is because I prefer to stick with pure models of languages not invented systems of each language.

The BiBi movement started around 1993 so we have to wait and see those kids who grew up with it from infant all the way to high school but so far it is looking good. However, the big problem and misunderstandings about them is that so many kids enter these programs at a much much older age after they have been in other kinds of programs only to become language and academically delayed. Unless they are able to catch up after being transferred to the BiBi programs, they are always going to perform years behind their age appropriate levels.

We all have to keep that important factor in mind. It could be the big reason for the mixed results you speak of.
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I also wanted to add this...

as for mixed results, here is a perfect example....my school is a BiBi program but we got 74 new students in the past 4 years from the mainstreamed program. That is MORE THAN HALF of our student population so of course, the test results are gonna show a larger margin of low literacy scores due to those kids being language delayed from not having full access to language during their younger years. It has nothing to do with the BiBi program...however, I can say this...all of the kids' language and literacy skills have improved dramatically since being referred to our program. None of them have regressed so if they had been with us since toddlers, they would be performing at much much higher levels.

Right now, we have a first and 2nd grade class composed of kids who have been with us since babies and all of them are reading at grade level. One kid is even reading at one grade level above and he is from a hearing family.

Because I see and personally experience this, I believe that the bibi approach is the least riskiest approach of all.
 
shel90 said:
I also wanted to add this...

as for mixed results, here is a perfect example....my school is a BiBi program but we got 74 new students in the past 4 years from the mainstreamed program. That is MORE THAN HALF of our student population so of course, the test results are gonna show a larger margin of low literacy scores due to those kids being language delayed from not having full access to language during their younger years. It has nothing to do with the BiBi program...however, I can say this...all of the kids' language and literacy skills have improved dramatically since being referred to our program. None of them have regressed so if they had been with us since toddlers, they would be performing at much much higher levels.

Right now, we have a first and 2nd grade class composed of kids who have been with us since babies and all of them are reading at grade level. One kid is even reading at one grade level above and he is from a hearing family.

Because I see and personally experience this, I believe that the bibi approach is the least riskiest approach of all.
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Right. The best way to indicate the success is to get a baseline on each student when they enter the Bi-Bi program, and systematically chart progress and improvement.
 
jillio said:
Right. The best way to indicate the success is to get a baseline on each student when they enter the Bi-Bi program, and systematically chart progress and improvement.
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What do you think is the biggest barrier to BIBI? Is it money? Teachers, or the oralists?
 
dreamchaser said:
What do you think is the biggest barrier to BIBI? Is it money? Teachers, or the oralists?
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I think it is the oralists and the medical community. Doctors are telling families not to put their children in bibi programs...
 
shel90 said:
I think it is the oralists and the medical community. Doctors are telling families not to put their children in bibi programs...
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That is what I was afraid of. Do you see why I thought it would be up to the manualists to indtroduce ASL into the lower grades like preschool, to protect them from the oralists?

I wasn't trying to start a controversy. I look at this stupid war, and I realize that people sat back too long and just watched it happen. Now we are all paying the consequences. I realize that ASL is the thrid highest language in America, abut that is at the high school level and above. It does not keep the mainstreamed kids included in the lower grades, and by the time kids get to high school, they usually have already developed their prejudisms or their indifferences.
 
dreamchaser said:
That is what I was afraid of. Do you see why I thought it would be up to the manualists to indtroduce ASL into the lower grades like preschool, to protect them from the oralists?

I wasn't trying to start a controversy. I look at this stupid war, and I realize that people sat back too long and just watched it happen. Now we are all paying the consequences. I realize that ASL is the thrid highest language in America, abut that is at the high school level and above. It does not keep the mainstreamed kids included in the lower grades, and by the time kids get to high school, they usually have already developed their prejudisms or their indifferences.
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The doctors or audiologists are the people the parents of a newly diagnosed deaf baby first meet. The parents are the ones who decide whether their child should be placed in an oral-only program or not and a majority of them listen to the medical professionals' advice more than any other advices. That's why we need to get the advocates to the hospitals as well as the schools. The early intervention team has been unsuccessfully trying to work with the medical community especially those in the implant industry on the benefits of ASL but the doctors wont hear of it. Sometimes I wonder if I should have been an audiologist and worked at the pediatric dept.
 
shel90 said:
I think it is the oralists and the medical community. Doctors are telling families not to put their children in bibi programs...
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I would agree with that. As long as we have the so-called experts telling parents that sign is a negative for their child, we will be fighting an uphill battle. We simply have to continue being very vocal about the myths and the inaccurracies that parents are continuing to be told, in spite of all of the evidence tothe contrary.
 
shel90 said:
The doctors or audiologists are the people the parents of a newly diagnosed deaf baby first meet. The parents are the ones who decide whether their child should be placed in an oral-only program or not and a majority of them listen to the medical professionals' advice more than any other advices. That's why we need to get the advocates to the hospitals as well as the schools. The early intervention team has been unsuccessfully trying to work with the medical community especially those in the implant industry on the benefits of ASL but the doctors wont hear of it. Sometimes I wonder if I should have been an audiologist and worked at the pediatric dept.
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We certainly need more audis out there that look at more than pathology.
 
jillio said:
I would agree with that. As long as we have the so-called experts telling parents that sign is a negative for their child, we will be fighting an uphill battle. We simply have to continue being very vocal about the myths and the inaccurracies that parents are continuing to be told, in spite of all of the evidence tothe contrary.
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If that makes me someone who is "anti-ci" , negative, deaf militant, or whatever, so be it. I dont care. People who speak out are usually hated by a lot of other people...MLK was one example. :giggle:
 
shel90 said:
If that makes me someone who is "anti-ci" , negative, deaf militant, or whatever, so be it. I dont care. People who speak out are usually hated by a lot of other people...MLK was one example. :giggle:
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Absolutely. But he told the truth, and his speaking out led to some much needed changes. I would certainly never put myself in his esteemed category, but he did teach me one thing. If you don't become part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
 
dreamchaser said:
So, what do you think would be workable? I am just lookin for solutions or at least the start of a solution that will hearing people understand Deaf people better, and some form of communication that keeps the Deaf child included in all aspects of life. I mostly want to stop the prejudices and walls from forming. What is the bi-bi coalition? Is there a central place to help to support them? I realize that there are differences in sign strategy, but I am thinking that for general communication ASL is more than adequate. I don't know about english literacy classes. I am guessing that might take a little SEE. But in general, how can we make our kids become a real part of the schools they go to unless the other kids learn an easy form of communication?

Our Deaf school here in Oregon has an all time low enrollment. There has been talk about shutting it down more than once. I has been moved multiple times, and we just got done fighting the legislature to keep them from combining the Deaf and Blind school for the sake of money. (They really want to get the Blind school site, because it is now a very valuable, (very very valuable) piece of real estate. I don't think these people are gonna quit trying to do away with the school. Every year the parents lose more power over the decisions and programs and staff.

The education board here lean towards mainstreaming everybody. If that happens, I want our kids to not feel like a minority with no way to communicate. The only way I can think of to find a solution is to disect the problems until I understand them well enough to know what might work to facilitate communication for the kids and their peers and teachers. Terps can't do this, and separated classes don't fill the social needs, because the misunderstandings and prejudice will still grow. I think that we need to integrate the hearing kids into the Deaf experience,?????
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Honestly I don't know the answer. What I do know is that it would be a tough road to try to get the public school system to make a change to the majority to suite the minority. I agree with your points on integration but therin lies the crux. Which way is more approproiate to integrate? Should the majority make a change to suite the minority or should the minority make a change to suit the majority. :dunno:
 
rockdrummer said:
Honestly I don't know the answer. What I do know is that it would be a tough road to try to get the public school system to make a change to the majority to suite the minority. I agree with your points on integration but therin lies the crux. Which way is more approproiate to integrate? Should the majority make a change to suite the minority or should the minority make a change to suit the majority. :dunno:
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The concept of integration is that change comes from both sides.
 
jillio said:
Yep, newly formed. And since the proposition of bilingual education for deaf students is a relatively new concept, that would make sense.
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how new is the concept and is anyone observing the results or conducting studies?
 
rockdrummer said:
how new is the concept and is anyone observing the results or conducting studies?
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Yes, results are being observed, and studies are being conducted. The problem is, at this time, because it is a relatively new concept, (late 90's,as it is presented today, although original deaf ed was decidedly bi-bi), we need longitudinal data. That is not available at this time because of the newness.

The data that is collected now is varied because children are entering into a bi-bi environment at different point with differing prior educational experiences. The best indications we have currently are that, when a baseline is done on an individual, and progress is charted, a child in a bi-bi environment will make greater progress than a child that receives remedial services in the mainstream.

We might also look to the past for an indication of how a child that is educated in a bi-bi environment from k-12 will benefit. During the heyday of deaf education at deaf schools, students were testing out on par with hearing children. Prior to the days that the oralists attempted to take over and dictate the methods of education for deaf students, the deaf schools were doing an excellent job of graduating students well prepared to enter into adult life. Only after the oralists took over, forbid sign language, and put deaf teachers out of work did we begin to see problems in the quality of education received by deaf students. Based on this history, it is not illogical to believe that a return to a bi-bi philosophy will provide the same results for a child that is educated in that environment from k-12.
 
jillio said:
Yes, results are being observed, and studies are being conducted. The problem is, at this time, because it is a relatively new concept, (late 90's,as it is presented today, although original deaf ed was decidedly bi-bi), we need longitudinal data. That is not available at this time because of the newness.

The data that is collected now is varied because children are entering into a bi-bi environment at different point with differing prior educational experiences. The best indications we have currently are that, when a baseline is done on an individual, and progress is charted, a child in a bi-bi environment will make greater progress than a child that receives remedial services in the mainstream.

We might also look to the past for an indication of how a child that is educated in a bi-bi environment from k-12 will benefit. During the heyday of deaf education at deaf schools, students were testing out on par with hearing children. Prior to the days that the oralists attempted to take over and dictate the methods of education for deaf students, the deaf schools were doing an excellent job of graduating students well prepared to enter into adult life. Only after the oralists took over, forbid sign language, and put deaf teachers out of work did we begin to see problems in the quality of education received by deaf students. Based on this history, it is not illogical to believe that a return to a bi-bi philosophy will provide the same results for a child that is educated in that environment from k-12.
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If only a large majority of kids would start out with the bibi approach since preK instead of entering it after falling behind at the public schools. However, this year my school is starting to see the younger kids enter 1st and 2nd grade reading at or above grade level because they have been with us since they were infants. The new Endmark program contributed a lot to it too. My class used to be 2 or so years delayed and I have gotten them caught up by 1 year so hopefully next year, they will be reading on grade level. It was FUN with this new reading approach..It feels more consistent and feels just right.
 
shel90 said:
If only a large majority of kids would start out with the bibi approach since preK instead of entering it after falling behind at the public schools. However, this year my school is starting to see the younger kids enter 1st and 2nd grade reading at or above grade level because they have been with us since they were infants. The new Endmark program contributed a lot to it too. My class used to be 2 or so years delayed and I have gotten them caught up by 1 year so hopefully next year, they will be reading on grade level. It was FUN with this new reading approach..It feels more consistent and feels just right.
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Think what a benefit it would be for these kids to be in a bi-bi environment and have consistently applied methodology such as the Endmark program from the beginning!
 
Just today my sister thinks all hearing school should use Auslan as a LOTE.

That was after I told her that I met a young woman at work who used to attend this elementary hearing Christian school nearby, and they taught her Auslan. She signed to me and didn't rely on voice. I thought 'cool'!

Maybe now she'll (sister) send her son to that school next year, if he does go then he'll have no excuse not to use Auslan with his darling aunty namely me ;)
 
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