Arizona governor signs immigration bill

[jillio]

No. Just because based on their behavior profiling results it netted a person who appear "Muslim" isn't racial profiling. Just as it worked when they caught an Irish woman with seven pounds of explosives on her.

Nope. Not buying it. Behavior is culturally dependent. Just another word for racial or ethnic profiling no matter how you spin it.

 

[somedeafdudefromPNW]

Which reminds me of the time I used to belong to forum run by Native Americans. I remember some of them complaining that cops would stop them for looking like Muslims. It never occurred to me that they could look faintly look like Muslims.

Aka... anyone who isn't white as a ghost, and isn't blacker than night.

 

[kokonut]

It doesn't work. But people use it anyway. Just ask anyone in your life who could be mistaken for Muslim and who travels.

At Ben Gurion Airport it has worked for without any terrorist incident happening there Sorry. It does work especially considering the fact also that Israel is surrounded by Islamic countries. A prize to consider by many terrorists to try and hit the airport and their airplanes.

Israel Airport Safety | El Al Security | Ben-Gurion Security | Considerations

 

[jillio]

At Ben Gurion Airport it has worked for without any terrorist incident happening there Sorry. It does work especially considering the fact also that Israel is surrounded by Islamic countries. A prize to consider by many terrorists to try and hit the airport and their airplanes.

Israel Airport Safety | El Al Security | Ben-Gurion Security | Considerations

There were also claims not so long ago that lynching based on racial profiling worked.:roll:

 

[rockin'robin]

Here in Florida, when you go to renew ur driver's license, update ur address, or have a name change....they now require many, many forms of identity. Birth certificate, social security card, proof of address (2 or 3forms of proof), and ur marriage or divorse certificates.......It's the law in several states, just has not been enforced until this year (I believe)....It is said due to 9-1-1...and some people acquiring a drivers license, to find they were terrorists....(here in Florida)....Florida has "cracked down"! Big time!

 

[Reba]

Wirelessly posted

Do you agree that people of different backgrounds shouldn't have to worry about the police?

Worry about the police doing what?

Do you mean people of various racial and ethnic backgrounds who are legally in a country?

 

[Jiro]

Worry about the police doing what?

Do you mean people of various racial and ethnic backgrounds who are legally in a country?

yes. Even I am concerned. Looks like I have to carry additional document when visiting my friend in Phoenix. :roll:

 

[Jiro]

lets look at it this way. Suppose a police officer in a patrol car pulls up to a convience store to get a drink or something. And he notice a young man standing outside the store lighting up a smoke. The officer immediately thinks, "hey, this guy looks young, lets check him out." so the officer ask for id and the young guy knew he was caught because he is under the age to buy and use smokes. Now did the officer do his job or was he "picking on" the kid' my point is that all officers have to use judgement and make a snap decision while on patrol and we all need to support these officers. What happens to the people after the stop is immaterial if the officer had a good reason to ask for id.

your example is erroneous. Here's a more relevant example -

Suppose a police officer in a patrol car pulled up to a convenience store to get a drink or something. And he noticed a young man standing outside the store, lighting up a smoke, minding his own business. The officer immediately thinks - "hey... this guy is [insert a nationality]. let's check him out."

The probable cause? Loitering. So officer asks for ID and then asks for proof of immigration. The guy obviously doesn't have one on him because he didn't expect to be treated like a second-class citizen in his hometown where he was born and raised for over 30 years.

*gasp* does this sound eerily familiar??? ah yes!!! the Palestine living in West Bank who are harassed by Israeli soldiers on daily basis.

so you tell me - is it very likely that the officer would ask a Caucasian man loitering around for proof of immigration?

 

[Reba]

that's why I checked California. yep - same as your state law. NJ same. NY same.

So, anyone who is in the country legally can obtain sufficient ID proof to show the police if they are stopped. I don't think it's too much trouble to show a drivers license or state ID card.

 

[Reba]

by racial profiling

Huh? How would racial profiling prove whether nor not someone is legally in the country?

 

[Jiro]

So, anyone who is in the country legally can obtain sufficient ID proof to show the police if they are stopped. I don't think it's too much trouble to show a drivers license or state ID card.

in this article - why is it that some Arizonians and college students have to carry 3 additional pieces of identification to prove their citizenship or immigration status?

These days, Jessica Mejia doesn't leave the house without three pieces of identification to prove her citizenship.

"Even if you're legal, you're in fear that maybe your driver's license isn't going to be enough or if you're walking down the street and the police stop you," said Mejia, 21. "It's a constant fear we're living in and even legal citizens are afraid to go out."

The law also requires legal immigrants to carry their alien registration documents at all times. But U.S. citizens like Mejia, who identifies herself as Chicana, says she carries her driver's license, voter registration card and school fingerprint card at all times out of fear of being racially profiled.

Arizona college student carries three pieces of ID to prove citizenship, fears being detained.

 

[Jiro]

Huh? How would racial profiling prove whether nor not someone is legally in the country?

from OP -

The bill allows police to question and arrest people without warrant if there is "reasonable suspicion" about their immigration status.

so if my driver license is not sufficient enough to prove my citizenship to cop with a thorn in his arse - he can arrest me and detain me since I do not have passport or other document with me.

Wondering which one is the officer more likely to ask/check for proof of immigration status - a Caucasian person or a minority person.

 

[Jiro]

We already have I.C.E. (US Immigration and Customs Enforcement) - a federal agency created by Bush.

About U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE)

U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) is the largest investigative agency in the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS).

Formed in 2003 as part of the federal government's response to the 9/11 attacks, ICE's mission is to protect the security of the American people and homeland by vigilantly enforcing the nation's immigration and customs laws.

ICE combines innovative investigative techniques, new technological resources and a high level of professionalism to provide a wide range of resources to the public and to our federal, state and local law enforcement partners.

ICE is comprised of four operational divisions:

Office of Detention and Removal Operations (DRO)
Office of Investigations (OI)
Office of Intelligence (Intel)
Office of International Affairs (OIA)
With more than 19,000 employees in over 400 offices in the U.S. and around the world, ICE plays a vital role in the DHS layered defense approach to protecting the nation.

so why are the local cops doing the federal ICE agents' jobs that they are not trained for? Even Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon is disgusted with this ridiculous law which will take effect in a few months. Phoenix Mayor Gordon is going to file a lawsuit to block this law.

New immigration law won't hurt economy, Arizona governor says - CNN.com

"People are going to be stopped just because of the color of [their] skin. And it ain't right," protester Jose Acosta told CNN on Sunday. "Are they going to be looking for Europeans as well, or is it just the brown people?"

 

[Reba]

so why do the Arizona driver (an immigrant) need to carry 3 more documents? I listed the article in my post above. Apparently - driver license isn't adequate enough

I'm sorry, there have been so many posts, I'm not sure which one you're referring to.

What are the three other documents in addition to the driver's license that legal immigrants need to carry in Arizona?

The only reason I can think of would be because Arizona doesn't require proof up front when they are issuing their drivers licenses.

 

[somedeafdudefromPNW]

I find Jiro's usage of Caucasian hilarious... because most Latinos are Caucasians.

 

[Reba]

did you even read the Arizona immigration bill? It's not about checking your passport before entering the country. It's about local police officers doing the job as Federal immigration officers (I.C.E.) on street.

I have a question.

Does anyone realistically expect the police to have enough manpower to make numerous stops and ID checks on a frequent basis, in addition to their regular duties?

 

[Jiro]

I'm sorry, there have been so many posts, I'm not sure which one you're referring to.

What are the three other documents in addition to the driver's license that legal immigrants need to carry in Arizona?

green card. passport. birth certificate. voter registration card. school fingerprint card. alien registration card. etc.

The only reason I can think of would be because Arizona doesn't require proof up front when they are issuing their drivers licenses.

since this new law allows police to question and arrest people without warrant if there is "reasonable suspicion" about their immigration status..... looks like driver license is most likely not sufficient enough because we already know the illegals can obtain driver license through fraudulent means.

 

[Reba]

behavior profiling. racial profiling. gender profiling. religion profiling. all same thing to me. all matter of oxymoronic "Politically Correct" word game.

They are not the same.

Behavior profiling transcends all races, sexes, and religions. A person behaving suspiciously, regardless of race, sex or religion requires investigation.

 

[Foxrac]

Huh? How would racial profiling prove whether nor not someone is legally in the country?

Latino aka brown skin will be greater target for police to make them as suspicion for illegal immigrants so they will stop them for check their documentation.

AZ immigrant bill FAIL, you know why? Many illegal immigrants will escape to other states like CA, NM, NV, TX, etc after they realize that immigrant bill is tight.

 

[Reba]

Yep. There is no difference. Especially when you consider exactly how much behavior is culturally based. It is racial or ethnic profiling no matter how one tries to spin it.

Behavior profiling is not racial profiling.

My experience at Ben Gurion Airport in Tel Aviv has led me to the conclusion that racial profiling is not effective. The major attacks at Ben Gurion Airport were carried out by Japanese terrorists in 1972 and Germans in the 1980s. [They] did not belong to any expected ethnic group. Richard Reid [known as the shoe bomber] did not fit a racial profile. Professionally as well as legally, I oppose the idea of racial profiling. So we are left with behavior, because behavior is probably the Achilles' heel of the terrorist.

In the Reid case, there were at least five crew members who later told me they had a suspicious feeling about Reid when he boarded the aircraft. The technology that was supposed to have dealt with the threat failed to do so. The clear conclusion from that is that when you [a terrorist] have to overcome a certain technological screening process, you can find a way to overcome it, but human behavior is where you will fail. Because a person carrying out a major terrorist attack that will probably end his life as well as the lives of many others cannot be in a sane state of mind. Even people who can control their behavior still fail to do so frequently.

Crew members thought Reid looked suspicious. How do you distinguish between suspicion based on observed behavior, and suspicion based on a feeling you have because you are, in fact, racially profiling them?

We give trainees a lot of examples where racial profiling would lead to disaster. We just tell officers don't do it, but there are instincts that go along with it. We have seen that officers can use excuses to cover up the fact that they are racially profiling. Behavior pattern recognition teaches that more objective criteria must be used that is focused on behavior. We provide the trainees with a great understanding of terrorist behavior. We look for irregular behavior, and that is why the program is tightly connected to the environment where it is being implemented, because [behavior] changes from one place to another.

In an airport you can expect people to be moving around with large bags, but if someone shows up like that at a sporting event, that should draw attention and trigger a response.

Behavior Pattern Recognition and Why Racial Profiling Doesn't Work - CSO Online - Security and Risk

Racial profiling has a huge margin of error. Liberty instead advocates an intelligence-based policing approach, using behavior-based techniques, Corlew says.

Experts such as Rafi Ron, a consultant who led security teams in Israeli airports, and George Nacarra, security chief at Logan Airport in Boston, both cite the benefits of training frontline workers to recognize suspicious and dangerous behavior as a more effective means of screening would-be terrorists.

History shows that terrorists have defied racial classification, says Bruce Schneier, a security expert. Schneier cites a 1986 incident in which a pregnant Irish woman was caught carrying a bomb that was placed in her luggage without her knowledge by her Jordanian boyfriend, aboard an Israel-bound flight.

If screeners stop one ethnic group, terrorists could use someone who doesn't match the profile, he says. There is also concern that racial profiling alienates people who could be sources in investigations, Schneier says.

Racial Profiling and Terrorism - CSO Online - Security and Risk