Add lithium to drinking water

Beowulf said:
That's very, very debatable. Just google "flouride" and you will see thousands upon thousands of sites on the subject. I have friends in the medical field who told me of the harm it causes. (Just don't demand to know what harm, since you will need to find it yourself.)
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I did look up.

Here's the real problem with their argument, they're saying there were harms as a result of fluoridation but more people were harmed by having dental caries and losing teeth. There's a strong link between heart disease and advancing gum disease.

Stained teeth as a result of too much fluoride is not considered harmful even though it's unsightly. Not much is known about long term systemic effects but considering that it started in 1940's and our lifespan increasing, I doubt it has any effect.

Also, remember that fluoride is a NATURAL element and is found in many water sources. In areas where there's less than optimal amount, we simply add it. The effects are apparent - rate of dental caries dropped.

So, let's imagine this... if there's an unique disease called fluoriditis - 1 out of every 100,000 gets that disease and it's caused by fluoride in water and they die. On the other hand, 1 out of 10 gets dental caries which is known to cause serious systemic health problems and can cause premature death. About 1 out of 200 die prematurely from it. If we add fluoride, we may save a few more lives.

Now, do you think we should ban fluoride just because one out of 100,000 people got fluroiditis? That would be irrational.

It's like saying that seat belts is wrong because it's an infringement of your rights - well, that's where it has to stop. If seat belts save more lives than without it, then it should be for the public's safety. You can die from wearing seat belts (trauma from seat belt) but you're more likely to die from not wearing it!

I know the lithium water studies are pretty sparse compared to fluoride water but I am intrigued and I have a public interest in it - I want to see fewer mentally ill people. :)
 
Lithium laced water will not result in fewer mentally ill people. It will simply result in more medicated people, both ill and healthy. Nor will it do anything to advance the mentally ill who are drinking the medicated water to be in therapy. All studies show that the most effective treatment for any mental disorder is a combination of medication and psychotherapy. And it is a simple fact of life, that if a mentally ill person can get their meds without having to go through the psychotherapy that actually gives them the ability to live a functional life with their disorder,chances are great they will not get it.
 
netrox said:
1. Not enough studies but definitely interesting and should be repeated. We should do it with a few communities across the nation and see if it makes any difference. If it means saving lives and reducing medical costs associated with mental illnesses, we should do it.
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So you already agree that it doesn't even necessarily have an effect? Feel free to run more trials and studies. But not on cities and towns, but actually controlled experiments so you can isolate the

netrox said:
2. Oh yes, they buy bottled water and commercials proclaim how pure their water is! Pure water is a big no no! Google "pure water" and you'll see a lot of promotions of "pure water" which is silly.
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No, no, no. Not some generic "they". I meant anyone in this thread. You don't get to bring up random points and defend yourself against them when they're things that nobody else is even talking about. That's not how debates work.

(And yes, I agree "pure water" and similar things are silly. But that's irrelevant because your idea is also silly!)

netrox said:
3. You think it's a drastic action to add trace amount of lithium? Adding fluoride cut down caries dramatically. No one was harmed by having it in water.
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Yes. I do. You're talking about affecting the entire water supply for an area. If you don't see a problem with that, go watch the movie "Idiocracy".

"It's got electrolytes! They're what plants crave!"
 
jillio said:
Lithium laced water will not result in fewer mentally ill people. It will simply result in more medicated people, both ill and healthy. Nor will it do anything to advance the mentally ill who are drinking the medicated water to be in therapy. All studies show that the most effective treatment for any mental disorder is a combination of medication and psychotherapy. And it is a simple fact of life, that if a mentally ill person can get their meds without having to go through the psychotherapy that actually gives them the ability to live a functional life with their disorder,chances are great they will not get it.
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Doesn't it ever occur to you that lithium may be an essential nutrient for brain development? Lithium is found in many plants and dairy products. Studies show strong correlation between mental health and diet.

If studies show that people are mentally healthier with addition of lithium in water, then it's worth looking at it. The dose is less than a thousand of what you'd get from medication.

Your mental health can be profoundly influenced by what you consume, more than you realize.

We put folate in flour and we observed dramatic drop in birth defects. Why not we do the same with lithium in water? That translate into huge savings for government health care and saving lives as well.

Again, you're tinking that lithium-enriched water will "medicate" people - it doesn't. Nothing suggests it. In fact, I suspect it may be an essential nutrient for normal brain development.
 
netrox said:
Doesn't it ever occur to you that lithium may be an essential nutrient for brain development? Lithium is found in many plants and dairy products. Studies show strong correlation between mental health and diet.

If studies show that people are mentally healthier with addition of lithium in water, then it's worth looking at it. The dose is less than a thousand of what you'd get from medication.

Your mental health can be profoundly influenced by what you consume, more than you realize.

We put folate in flour and we observed dramatic drop in birth defects. Why not we do the same with lithium in water? That translate into huge savings for government health care and saving lives as well.

Again, you're tinking that lithium-enriched water will "medicate" people - it doesn't. Nothing suggests it. In fact, I suspect it may be an essential nutrient for normal brain development.
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If we needed lithium in the water to guarantee optimal brain development, there would be no normal brain development in any area that did not add lithium to the water.

There are no valid studies showing that people are more mentally healthy with an addition of trace amounts of lithium added to the water.

Which studies show a strong correlation? And you do realize don't you, that correlation does not imply cause and effect?

I'm thinking nothing of the kind. Trace amounts are not enough to medicate noticeably. However, lithium is one of those drugs that accumulates in the system and can cause some very, very unpleasant side effects. That is why those that are taking therapeutic does must have their levels monitored very carefully.

The imagined benefit that could even, under ideal conditions, be derived from this is far far less than the harm it could cause.
 
jillio said:
If we needed lithium in the water to guarantee optimal brain development, there would be no normal brain development in any area that did not add lithium to the water.

There are no valid studies showing that people are more mentally healthy with an addition of trace amounts of lithium added to the water.

Which studies show a strong correlation? And you do realize don't you, that correlation does not imply cause and effect?

I'm thinking nothing of the kind. Trace amounts are not enough to medicate noticeably. However, lithium is one of those drugs that accumulates in the system and can cause some very, very unpleasant side effects. That is why those that are taking therapeutic does must have their levels monitored very carefully.

The imagined benefit that could even, under ideal conditions, be derived from this is far far less than the harm it could cause.
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What would be some of those side effects - just out of curiosty?
 
deafskeptic said:
What would be some of those side effects - just out of curiosty?
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It can reach toxic levels and the internal organs begin to shut down as a result of elevated toxic levels. That is the worst one. There is also the dulling of normal responses, the blunting of affect, and, in some cases, increased delusional thinking.
 
jillio said:
It can reach toxic levels and the internal organs begin to shut down as a result of elevated toxic levels. That is the worst one. There is also the dulling of normal responses, the blunting of affect, and, in some cases, increased delusional thinking.
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That part I didn't know about. It can actually increase delusional thinking in some cases? I hadn't known that either.
 
jillio said:
If we needed lithium in the water to guarantee optimal brain development, there would be no normal brain development in any area that did not add lithium to the water.

There are no valid studies showing that people are more mentally healthy with an addition of trace amounts of lithium added to the water.

Which studies show a strong correlation? And you do realize don't you, that correlation does not imply cause and effect?

I'm thinking nothing of the kind. Trace amounts are not enough to medicate noticeably. However, lithium is one of those drugs that accumulates in the system and can cause some very, very unpleasant side effects. That is why those that are taking therapeutic does must have their levels monitored very carefully.

The imagined benefit that could even, under ideal conditions, be derived from this is far far less than the harm it could cause.
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jillo, lithium is found in many plants and dairy. We cannot AVOID it. It's a trace element. You cannot avoid lithium in diet, it's possible that you don't get enough lithium needed for optimal mental health.

Folate is found in plants as well and everyone eats plants. Back then, we had eaten folate but it wasn't optimal. Now, we're getting a lot of it and it has made a significant difference in birth defects rate.

Lithium used as therapy is a thousand times MORE - that is totally DIFFERENT from taking lithium in trace amount. It won't be able to accumulate as you suggest - lithium's half-life is 22 hours so that means it's IMPOSSIBLE to accumulate to a level considered useful for therapy.

You will NOT be "medicated" with lithium in trace amounts. It's not the way it works. Think of it as an essential mineral for healthy brain development.

I am aware that correlation does not imply "cause and effect" but it's intriguing enough that I believe deserves a serious consideration.
 
Lithium in scalp hair of adults, students, and violent criminals. Effects of supplementation and evidence for interactions of lithium with vitamin B12 and with other trace elements.

Lithium in scalp hair of adults, students, and vio... [Biol Trace Elem Res. 1992] - PubMed result

"Using data for 27 Texas counties from 1978-1987, it is shown that the incidence rates of suicide, homicide, and rape are significantly higher in counties whose drinking water supplies contain little or no lithium than in counties with water lithium levels ranging from 70-170 micrograms/L; the differences remain statistically significant (p less than 0.01) after corrections for population density."

Lithium in drinking water and the incidences of cr... [Biol Trace Elem Res. 1990] - PubMed result

"To investigate this, we examined lithium levels in tap water in the 18 municipalities of Oita prefecture in Japan in relation to the suicide standardised mortality ratio (SMR) in each municipality. We found that lithium levels were significantly and negatively associated with SMR averages for 2002-2006. These findings suggest that even very low levels of lithium in drinking water may play a role in reducing suicide risk within the general population."

Lithium levels in drinking water and risk of suici... [Br J Psychiatry. 2009] - PubMed result

And don't you think it's worth repeating again? What if it's with high confidence that it will help the public, would you support adding lithium to water?
 
souggy said:
Lithia Water Study: Effects of Lithia Water on BDNF and Oxidative Stress Markers in Healthy Male Participants - Full Text View - ClinicalTrials.gov
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Saved this so I can go over it better later. My internet is kicking in and out due to a bad storm right now.

In what I saw from briefly scanning this study, my reply would be this:

This is a time limited study with a small, gender specific, age specific population. Additionally, the study was done with naturally occuring levels in spring water, not chemically manufactured additives placed in a community's water supply. Those are two very different studies.

Conclusion: I am going to have to see one heck of a lot more research before I am convinced that adding lithium to drinking water is a good idea.
 
netrox said:
Lithium in scalp hair of adults, students, and violent criminals. Effects of supplementation and evidence for interactions of lithium with vitamin B12 and with other trace elements.

Lithium in scalp hair of adults, students, and vio... [Biol Trace Elem Res. 1992] - PubMed result

"Using data for 27 Texas counties from 1978-1987, it is shown that the incidence rates of suicide, homicide, and rape are significantly higher in counties whose drinking water supplies contain little or no lithium than in counties with water lithium levels ranging from 70-170 micrograms/L; the differences remain statistically significant (p less than 0.01) after corrections for population density."

Lithium in drinking water and the incidences of cr... [Biol Trace Elem Res. 1990] - PubMed result

"To investigate this, we examined lithium levels in tap water in the 18 municipalities of Oita prefecture in Japan in relation to the suicide standardised mortality ratio (SMR) in each municipality. We found that lithium levels were significantly and negatively associated with SMR averages for 2002-2006. These findings suggest that even very low levels of lithium in drinking water may play a role in reducing suicide risk within the general population."

Lithium levels in drinking water and risk of suici... [Br J Psychiatry. 2009] - PubMed result

And don't you think it's worth repeating again? What if it's with high confidence that it will help the public, would you support adding lithium to water?
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You have given me abstracts which do not allow me to look at things I need to look at before I can see the limitations and possible other explanations for the results. So I can't answer if I think these experiments are worth repeating. Again, these are done in areas where the lithium is naturally occuring in water supplies, not in instances where the chemical has been added. Again, it was done with adults and a very limited population sampling. Nothing regarding longitudinal results.

Show me research that indicates that there is a more significant benefit to the public of adding lithium to drinking water than there is without it, and I would be happy to review that research. And reach a conclusion once I have done so. At this point in time, I am not in favor of it.
 
netrox said:
... Adding fluoride cut down caries dramatically. No one was harmed by having it in water.
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Too much fluoride can damage teeth. In our area, until everyone got city water, they used well water. The well water was naturally high in fluoride. It caused children who grew up here to have permanently mottled teeth. It's called fluorosis, and it used to be very common here.

Dental Fluorosis
 
Reba said:
Too much fluoride can damage teeth. In our area, until everyone got city water, they used well water. The well water was naturally high in fluoride. It caused children who grew up here to have permanently mottled teeth. It's called fluorosis, and it used to be very common here.

Dental Fluorosis
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True.

And as I have said, a substance that is occurring naturally in a water supply if a very different situation than adding a chemical such as lithium to a water supply.

The stdies that I have seen are also done on healthy individuals. We don't know what the effects may be for someone who has a medically compromising condition,nor how even trace amounts would interact with specific medications being taken.
 
jillio said:
Saved this so I can go over it better later. My internet is kicking in and out due to a bad storm right now.

In what I saw from briefly scanning this study, my reply would be this:

This is a time limited study with a small, gender specific, age specific population. Additionally, the study was done with naturally occuring levels in spring water, not chemically manufactured additives placed in a community's water supply. Those are two very different studies.

Conclusion: I am going to have to see one heck of a lot more research before I am convinced that adding lithium to drinking water is a good idea.
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Personally, I am not a fan of it... but... It shows people are actually seriously considering this stuff.
 
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