Acoustic Characteristics of the Speech of Young Cochlear Implant Users

[jillio]

So you consider the use of ASL to be belittling? Wow!

And you are mistaking the difference between the deaf community and Deaf culture. That is a huge problem in your interpretations. And, your little deaf/hoh community in Nashville is very orally oriented. However, there is also a huge Deaf community in Nashville that is not orally biased.[/QUOT

I view your view that I am not part of the deaf community because I do not agree with you.

Once again, you seem to have difficulty with comprehending what is said. I did not say you weren't part of the oral deaf community, but rather of the Deaf community. Please try to focus.

And, since you failed to answer, it can be assumed that you do consider the use of ASL to be belittling. Very insulting of you, not to mention ethnocentric.

 

[jillio]

I do believe in ASL for children. I have used it in my classroom. What I am against is how you treat other parents here on the site. You also belittle my audiogram results. I'm proud of my hard work. I am post lingual, I know that. You say that like it is a dirty word.

How do you exactly perceive the words "post lingual" as a dirty word? You are reading too much into my wording based on your own bias. You are the one that questioned by identification of you as post lingual. And if you don't realize that the issues for the post lingually deafened and the prelingually deafened are different, then it is your understanding that is deficient.

So, you are fluent in ASL? You sign to your students?

I have not belittled your audiogram results. I pointed out your error in interpretation of your results. You were portraying an innaccurate assessment.

 

[vallee]

Once again, you seem to have difficulty with comprehending what is said. I did not say you weren't part of the oral deaf community, but rather of the Deaf community. Please try to focus.

And, since you failed to answer, it can be assumed that you do consider the use of ASL to be belittling. Very insulting of you, not to mention ethnocentric.

I don't think asl is belittling. I think forcing to learn asl to be a part of the community as wrong. Maybe you should focus.

Of course you can't say I am not part of the oral deaf community, I am part.

 

[jillio]

I don't think asl is belittling. I think forcing to learn asl to be a part of the community as wrong. Maybe you should focus.

Of course you can't say I am not part of the oral deaf community, I am part.

And, once again, you have failed to see the difference between deaf and Deaf. And if you wnat to communicate with the Deaf community, you will learn their language.

And how is forcing someone to learn ASL (caps, not small letters, if you please) any different from the hearing community forcing the Deaf to learn to speak in order to be part of the community? Can't have it both ways, vallee.

Then why did you state that you learning ASL would be belittling yourself?

 

[vallee]

How do you exactly perceive the words "post lingual" as a dirty word? You are reading too much into my wording based on your own bias. You are the one that questioned by identification of you as post lingual. And if you don't realize that the issues for the post lingually deafened and the prelingually deafened are different, then it is your understanding that is deficient.

So, you are fluent in ASL? You sign to your students?

I have not belittled your audiogram results. I pointed out your error in interpretation of your results. You were portraying an innaccurate assessment.

You question me as if because I am post lingual, I don't understand what is it like to be deaf.

I know the differences between post and pre.

It is not an error in my test results, it is against how you view the test results. I can see the results. To me it is not inaccurate. It is a definition of my hard work and these wonderful CIs.

I do sign to my students. Had a student write an essay about it. It is posted on the site. Don't assume you know or understand me. Maybe you should reread it.

 

[vallee]

And, once again, you have failed to see the difference between deaf and Deaf. And if you wnat to communicate with the Deaf community, you will learn their language.

And how is forcing someone to learn ASL (caps, not small letters, if you please) any different from the hearing community forcing the Deaf to learn to speak in order to be part of the community? Can't have it both ways, vallee.

Then why did you state that you learning ASL would be belittling yourself?

I do the different between deaf and Deaf. If we go by your views then as a society we would not encourage immigrants to learn English. We would allow them to communicate in there own language and have classrooms in only Spanish, German, or any other language. What I believe in that if the only qualifications to be a member of the Deaf Community is to learn ASL, then I disagree. I believe that the Deaf Community is about all types of people - oral, nonverbal, signing, and hearing. You for one is wrong to say I am not a part because I must learn ASL. We could keep you out because you are hearing, not just because you sign.

 

[jillio]

You question me as if because I am post lingual, I don't understand what is it like to be deaf.

I know the differences between post and pre.

It is not an error in my test results, it is against how you view the test results. I can see the results. To me it is not inaccurate. It is a definition of my hard work and these wonderful CIs.

I do sign to my students. Had a student write an essay about it. It is posted on the site. Don't assume you know or understand me. Maybe you should reread it.

To say that the percentage of speech recognition in one ear, plus the percentage of seech recognition in the other ear equals a cummulative percentage for overall comprehension is incorrect vallee. That is what you stated, and that is what I correctede. If you are so concerned with parents getting accurate information, I would think you would be more careful inthe accuracy of your own statements.

I saw your post reagrding your student. And it contains your description of an essay that a student wrote, not the essay itself.

Which sign system do you use with your students? And, do you use it with all deaf students in your classroom? Do you use it for incidental communication in the classroom, or only when you have to speak to the deaf student directly?

 

[jillio]

I do the different between deaf and Deaf. If we go by your views then as a society we would not encourage immigrants to learn English. We would allow them to communicate in there own language and have classrooms in only Spanish, German, or any other language. What I believe in that if the only qualifications to be a member of the Deaf Community is to learn ASL, then I disagree. I believe that the Deaf Community is about all types of people - oral, nonverbal, signing, and hearing. You for one is wrong to say I am not a part because I must learn ASL. We could keep you out because you are hearing, not just because you sign.

You cannot compare hearing immigrants to deaf Americans. The immigrants have as their L1 language an oral language. Deaf indiviudals do not. We do encourage immigrants to learn English, but through the use of their native language. That is why we teach them using English as a Second Language (ESL) methodology. I propose that we do the same for the Deaf indiviudal...use ESL tehniques to teach them English through the use of their native language. It is exactly the same concept. Again, I have not said you are not part of the deaf community, but of the DEAF community. Please try to get the difference. You cannot be a part of the Deaf communoty because you do not speak their language. How do you propose to intereact with a cultural group if you do not speak their language. And the reason that I am able to participate in the Deaf community is because I do sp[eak their language. Participation is not dependent upon hearing status, as you with your medicalized view of deafness seems to mistakenly believe, but on linguistic similarity through which cultural values and beleifs are transmitted.

Please explain the difference between deaf and Deaf, ifg you know it, as your posts are demonstrating confusion between the two.

 

[vallee]

To say that the percentage of speech recognition in one ear, plus the percentage of seech recognition in the other ear equals a cummulative percentage for overall comprehension is incorrect vallee. That is what you stated, and that is what I correctede. If you are so concerned with parents getting accurate information, I would think you would be more careful inthe accuracy of your own statements.

I saw your post reagrding your student. And it contains your description of an essay that a student wrote, not the essay itself.

Which sign system do you use with your students? And, do you use it with all deaf students in your classroom? Do you use it for incidental communication in the classroom, or only when you have to speak to the deaf student directly?

The audie test each ear separately and then both CIs together. The scores are not an average, they are independent from each other.

It is the essay. The student is an 11th grader. It was directly from her e-mail to me.

 

[jillio]

The audie test each ear separately and then both CIs together. The scores are not an average, they are independent from each other.

Exactly. And that is what I communicated when I corrected you. The way you stated it in your original post that provoked my correction was that left ear plus right ear equals overall score.

It is the essay. The student is an 11th grader. It was directly from her e-mail to me.

I stand corrected. I read the essay. This is a hearing student, not a deaf student. And teaching a few words in sign and having dictionaries available to the students is not the sme as a bilingual environment, nor is it even remotely connected to deaf education and language acquisition of deaf children. Obviously, as well, this student, by her own admission, had never been exzposed to deafness prior, and therefore falls intot he category pof all hearies who are so impressed when they hear a deaf person speak intelligibly. If you would like to learn more about how offensive the Deaf find such an attitude to be, there is an entire thread dedicated to just that topic in Deaf Culture.

 

[vallee]

You cannot compare hearing immigrants to deaf Americans. The immigrants have as their L1 language an oral language. Deaf indiviudals do not. We do encourage immigrants to learn English, but through the use of their native language. That is why we teach them using English as a Second Language (ESL) methodology. I propose that we do the same for the Deaf indiviudal...use ESL tehniques to teach them English through the use of their native language. It is exactly the same concept. Again, I have not said you are not part of the deaf community, but of the DEAF community. Please try to get the difference. You cannot be a part of the Deaf communoty because you do not speak their language. How do you propose to intereact with a cultural group if you do not speak their language. And the reason that I am able to participate in the Deaf community is because I do sp[eak their language. Participation is not dependent upon hearing status, as you with your medicalized view of deafness seems to mistakenly believe, but on linguistic similarity through which cultural values and beleifs are transmitted.

Please explain the difference between deaf and Deaf, ifg you know it, as your posts are demonstrating confusion between the two.

deaf is the condition of hearing loss. That is the audiological term.

Deaf is by definition the culture. When you use a capital letter, you address a culture, for example, Spanish, Asian.

So all members of the Deaf Community are fluent signers and accept people only based on their ability to sign? There is a lot more than that. I don't believe that all persons in the Deaf Community accept only the same values you portary. Just like I am not the only voice of people with CIs, you can't be the only voice of the Deaf Community.

 

[shel90]

My husband is Asian and he does not speak Korean or Japanese or even Fillipo, so he can't be part of that culture. My daughter who is also Fillipo can't be part either.

If is means that the only way I am accepted as a deaf individual is to learn ASL, then no. I am deaf. I will not belittle myself to you must do this inorder to be accepted. Thats no more than a secret society.

That is what I mean by a secret handshake. I will just enjoy my little deaf/hoh community here in Nashville.

By learning ASL is belittling yourself? U dont have to value what the Deaf community values but u cant expect them to show u the same respect if u dont show them the same respect about ASL.

Fine, if oral deaf people want to go to Deaf clubs, Deaf plays and so on, they can help themselves but they will definitely be left out due to not understanding the language that is being used. I bet u anything if Deaf people go up to them and try to communicate with them by meeting their communications needs but if they dont try to meet their communication needs, friendships will not be established. It is about respecting the cultural values.

By comparing the Deaf community to people from other countries coming to America not being able to speak the language is fallicous. Deaf people are bilingual..both in ASL and English but the communication used in the air is ASL cuz of our visual needs. If we all dropped ASL and started using English in its spoken form, for sure communication would be strained and a lot of misunderstandings will result. Why do u think ASL got started in the first place?

 

[jillio]

deaf is the condition of hearing loss. That is the audiological term.

Deaf is by definition the culture. When you use a capital letter, you address a culture, for example, Spanish, Asian.

So all members of the Deaf Community are fluent signers and accept people only based on their ability to sign? There is a lot more than that. I don't believe that all persons in the Deaf Community accept only the same values you portary. Just like I am not the only voice of people with CIs, you can't be the only voice of the Deaf Community.

Where exactly did you ever see me say that I am the only voice of Deaf Culture? There you go agian with the assumptions and incorrect perceptions. What I said was, cultural values are directly communicated through and dependent upon shared language. And yes, Deaf Culure has a shared belief system, values, and norms. That is not to say that there aren't variances depending upon the other reference groups of individual members, but they ar variances based on the primary values and norms of Deaf Culture.

Once again, how is it that you think you can particiapte in a culture withour knowledge of and ability to communicate through the language of that culture. So yes, membership in Deaf Culture is directly tied to the ability to communicate with its members through ASL. Its not that difficult to understand.

 

[shel90]

I expect teachers to teach!

Then those teachers who deprived deaf children of full access to language should have never been teachers of the deaf in the first place.

I teach but kinda hard to teach 1st grade concepts to 8 and 9 year olds with a language level of a 3 year old. Try teaching kids who have no concept of time the difference between a day and a week is. Yes, I have to go back to the pre-K concepts and it does not take 1 year for most of them to catch up 5 years of delays. Also, many of the children have spent the first part of their lives so frustrated on a daily basis so their motivation and curiousity for learning has really been adversly affected. Some children do catch up but some do not and what is sad is that it is all preventable in the first place.

 

[vallee]

I stand corrected. I read the essay. This is a hearing student, not a deaf student. And teaching a few words in sign and having dictionaries available to the students is not the sme as a bilingual environment, nor is it even remotely connected to deaf education and language acquisition of deaf children. Obviously, as well, this student, by her own admission, had never been exzposed to deafness prior, and therefore falls intot he category pof all hearies who are so impressed when they hear a deaf person speak intelligibly. If you would like to learn more about how offensive the Deaf find such an attitude to be, there is an entire thread dedicated to just that topic in Deaf Culture.

I never said it was a deaf student. You also don't know how much sign we used and what we did. All hearies???? Come on!

So also a thank you for finding my student offensive. I found it wonderful that a student learning how to communicate, understand, and appreciate other people is being put down. She learned not to express that attitude. On that note - I will not answer anymore posting by you for a while.

So don't feel like you won, all you did is cause others to leave this great site, because you see yourself as the only voice of the Deaf Community.

 

[jillio]

I never said it was a deaf student. You also don't know how much sign we used and what we did. All hearies???? Come on!

So also a thank you for finding my student offensive. I found it wonderful that a student learning how to communicate, understand, and appreciate other people is being put down. She learned not to express that attitude. On that note - I will not answer anymore posting by you for a while.

So don't feel like you won, all you did is cause others to leave this great site, because you see yourself as the only voice of the Deaf Community.

I know what her essay said. Her essay said that you taught a few words, which in and of itself is mistaken, as ASL signs and words are related by concept only. Therefore, you do not teach word equivilents, but conceptual equivilents.

And yes, hearies who have never been exposed todeafness and therefore are ignorant regarding the implictions are always impressed by the deaf indiviual's ability to speak. And that is the misconception that continues to plague parents and educators who don't understand the implications of delayed laguage acquisition.

Who said your student was offensive? Really, vallee, you have to stop attributing words to me that I never used. You are grasping at straws now, and reacting far too emotionally. Likewise, who put her down? You seem to have a great deal of difficulty in understanding the difference between pointing out a fallicy in logic and personal insult.

Learning a few "words" in sign hardly constitutes communication. And I might remeind you that we are discussing deaf children, and the difficulties of their educational environment when restricted to an oral environment and the negative impact of judging their linguistic competence based on the superficial criteria of their pronunciation of English words. Your hearing student has absolutely nothing to do with that.

 

[shel90]

Shel, I do teach. I might not teach deaf education, but I do teach children who are language impaired. It is heart breaking. ASL is not the cure-all. Just like aspirin is not the only cure for a headache.

I have also taught a few children that have parents who are deaf. The language delay is also there for the hearing children as well. I had one who was only taught ASL at home, and she was at least 2 years delay in language. What did I do - I got her in speech class and worked with the parents to help the child. I tutored the child after school. Is that preventable too?

I realized I may I have read you wrong. Was the child fluent in ASL at the age appropriate level but just doesnt have oral skills? If that's what u mean then nope that child u are referring to is not language delayed. The child is speech delayed but having delays in speech does not prevent a deaf child from developing literacy skills. If that was true, then my brother would not be able to go to grad school at a hearing college since he has absulotely no speech/nor spoken language skills but is fluent in ASL and English.

If u see deaf children who can only sign in ASL, that does not automatically make them delayed in language. I work with deaf children who are delayed in ASL and English and that is a dangerous thing. Immigrants already are fluent in their home language. Many deaf children are not fluent in any languages and that is from being put in an environment where language is not fully accessible to them.

That is a dangerous misconception of deaf people having no speech skills as being automatically delayed in language. I have also worked with deaf children from deaf families who have high literacy skills despite having no speech skills. Also, I know so many deaf adults who are the same as well, including my brother.

 

[fredfam1]

If and only if the child is provided an accurate model of the language. Giving a child signs through PSE, SimCom, SEEII etc. is not "English on the hands", nor ASL.

Accurate modeling of ASL is not the real world of deaf children with hearing parents.




Hearing people are NOT using SIGN LANGUAGE, they are using signs borrowed from ASL in "plunking" it into their English spoken sentence. The jury is out regarding the "boosting of IQ".

This Hearing person is teaching her children ASL. I am not fluent, but I
understand the syntax, I understand which ideas are presented first, I understand about interpreting meaning for meaning, and I understand about
cultural differences. I have taught my children all of these things. Any one I teach I teach as I have been taught by Deaf instructors, without interpreters present in the class. I know how it feels to be plunged into a classroom setting with no way to understand my instructor. (Purposefully done by the instructor more than 24 years ago) My class due to start next spring will
be taught using ASL. My signs will be correct signs, not the adapted baby
signs. I saw no reason to speak like a moron to my babies and I see no reason
to sign to them like one.
The jury is not out on the subject of The Early Aquisition of Language. It has
been proven to boost IQs, decrease frustration and facilitate communication. It is a no brainer! ASL, not oralisum is the easiest Language for a child to aquire. Period.

 

[jillio]

This Hearing person is teaching her children ASL. I am not fluent, but I
understand the syntax, I understand which ideas are presented first, I understand about interpreting meaning for meaning, and I understand about
cultural differences. I have taught my children all of these things. Any one I teach I teach as I have been taught by Deaf instructors, without interpreters present in the class. I know how it feels to be plunged into a classroom setting with no way to understand my instructor. (Purposefully done by the instructor more than 24 years ago) My class due to start next spring will
be taught using ASL. My signs will be correct signs, not the adapted baby
signs. I saw no reason to speak like a moron to my babies and I see no reason
to sign to them like one.
The jury is not out on the subject of The Early Aquisition of Language. It has
been proven to boost IQs, decrease frustration and facilitate communication. It is a no brainer! ASL, not oralisum is the easiest Language for a child to aquire. Period.

And I, as well, used ASL as taught to me by the Deaf community in my home. That is waht my son was exposed to. However, as a native signer, his use of classifiers, etc. is better than my own. Once again, a deaf child surpassing his non-native model.

 

[jillio]

I realized I may I have read you wrong. Was the child fluent in ASL at the age appropriate level but just doesnt have oral skills? If that's what u mean then nope that child u are referring to is not language delayed. The child is speech delayed but having delays in speech does not prevent a deaf child from developing literacy skills. If that was true, then my brother would not be able to go to grad school at a hearing college since he has absulotely no speech/nor spoken language skills but is fluent in ASL and English.

If u see deaf children who can only sign in ASL, that does not automatically make them delayed in language. I work with deaf children who are delayed in ASL and English and that is a dangerous thing. Immigrants already are fluent in their home language. Many deaf children are not fluent in any languages and that is from being put in an environment where language is not fully accessible to them.

That is a dangerous misconception of deaf people having no speech skills as being automatically delayed in language. I have also worked with deaf children from deaf families who have high literacy skills despite having no speech skills. Also, I know so many deaf adults who are the same as well, including my brother.

Exactly. Speech skills do not equal language development. This is a common misconception perpetrated by the oralists.