Acoustic Characteristics of the Speech of Young Cochlear Implant Users

Please do not attempt to tell me what you think I do not understand, I have raised a deaf child and fully aware of the effort that is involved. One thing to consider also is that if the terp fails to show up for the class, is late or is not competent, well none of that affects those oral kids who do not rely upon terps for learning.As for doing "semi decently orally" I know oral kids who are Dean's list students, scholarship winners, attending Ivy League and other top tier colleges. If that is only doing "semi decently orally", pray tell then what is doing "real good"?


BTW ever going to name one of those toys that you claim increase SAT scores?

Things like that do can and do happen. That is why there is always a back-up plan to prevent the student not having services. What's the back-up plan for the oral kid that misses 40% of the lecture?

And I know signers that are doing the same thing. What's your point?

What if an oral student's CI malfunctions? What's the back up plan in that case? Drop out of school until it is repaired?
 
Please do not attempt to tell me what you think I do not understand, I have raised a deaf child and fully aware of the effort that is involved. One thing to consider also is that if the terp fails to show up for the class, is late or is not competent, well none of that affects those oral kids who do not rely upon terps for learning.

But Rick - do you agree that 1) lipreading is very hard, tiring, and takes time away from learning class information 2) terps fail to show up, is late, or not competent is not usual and can be fixed (replacement) and 3) ASL benefits the deaf/HoH kid?

Lipreading is very hard

From Center for Hearing Loss Help: Speachreading (lip-reading)

English is not a particularly easy language to speechread. Some languages are much easier (and some are even harder). The best estimates are that 30% to 35% of English sounds can be speechread. In order for a sound to be easily speechread, it must be formed on the lips and/or in the front of the mouth.

Unfortunately for us, we form many English sounds in the middle of our mouths. Others come from the back of our mouths and even in our throats. These latter are absolutely impossible to speechread.

As a result, a perfect speechreader only would be able to speechread about one third of what is said. They guess at the rest, taking into consideration their understanding of the spoken language, the body language of the speaker and the subject under discussion. Some people are remarkably good at guessing but no one is perfect.


Lipreading is tiring


From Center for Hearing Loss Help: Speachreading (lip-reading)

From A downside of speechreading, and one that is not obvious, is that it is very tiring, especially with someone who is hard to speechread in the first place. Fatigue is the constant companion of most hard of hearing people whether they realise it or not. Speechreading takes enormous concentration. We have to work very hard to understand what is being said. We must follow every lip movement, every facial expression, every gesture, to try to find meaning in what you are saying. We cannot relax our eyes for even a moment and have a nice easy conversation like people with normal hearing can.

Speechreading is not merely a matter of just watching speech movements, but includes considerable mental effort in making sense from an incompletely perceived message. In fact, I’ve heard our brains have to work five times as hard to understand speech as do those of people with normal hearing. In the course of a day, our brains have done as much mental gymnastics as a person with normal hearing does in a whole week! No wonder we get tired so fast!


Lipreading takes time away from learning class information

From Center for Hearing Loss Help: Speachreading (lip-reading)

Another downside of speechreading is that we spend so much of our time just trying to understand the words the person is saying that we can easily miss the meaning they are trying to communicate.

ASL benefits deaf/HoH kids

From Topics in Language Disorders, v18 n4 p47-60 Aug 1998: ASL Proficiency and English Literacy within a Bilingual Deaf Education Model of Instruction

Examines the theoretical models and arguments in the debate concerning possible relationships between natural sign language proficiency and English literacy. It presents findings of a study with 155 school-aged deaf children that supported such a connection.

---

From Journal of Deaf Studies and Deaf Education 2:1 1997: A Study of the Relationship Between American Sign Language and English Literacy

This article presents the findings of a study of the relationship between American Sign Language (ASL) skills and English literacy among 160 deaf children. Using a specially designed test of ASL to determine three levels of ASL ability, we found that deaf children who attained the higher two levels significantly outperformed children in the lowest ASL ability level in English literacy, regardless of age and IQ. Furthermore, although deaf children with deaf mothers outperformed deaf children of hearing mothers in both ASL and English literacy, when ASL level was held constant, there was no difference between these two groups, except in the lowest level of ASL ability. The implication of this research is straightforward and powerful: Deaf children's learning of English appears to benefit from the acquisition of even a moderate fluency in ASL.


---

From J Deaf Stud Deaf Educ. 1997 Summer;2(3):150-60: Modality of language shapes working memory: evidence from digit span and spatial span in ASL signers.

Deaf children who are native users of American Sign Language (ASL) and hearing children who are native English speakers performed three working memory tasks. Results indicate that language modality shapes the architecture of working memory. Digit span with forward and backward report, performed by each group in their native language, suggests that the language rehearsal mechanisms for spoken language and for sign language differ in their processing constraints. Unlike hearing children, deaf children who are native signers of ASL were as good at backward recall of digits as at forward recall, suggesting that serial order information for ASL is stored in a form that does not have a preferred directionality. Data from a group of deaf children who were not native signers of ASL rule out explanations in terms of a floor effect or a nonlinguistic visual strategy. Further, deaf children who were native signers outperformed hearing children on a nonlinguistic spatial memory task, suggesting that language expertise in a particular modality exerts an influence on nonlinguistic working memory within that modality. Thus, language modality has consequences for the structure of working memory, both within and outside the linguistic domain.
 
Rick, you're still not understanding what I'm saying. I know very well that there are oral only kids who are very high acheiver types. That does not surprise me. Families who are high acheiving tend to be attracted to oral only (especially auditory-verbal) These are the very same parents who pile on the every day "enrichment" like, those programs that claim that they can have preschoolers reading, and identifying the works of Rennaisse artists. Those families also tend to be more sucessful, orally since they can relocate to oral schools easily, pay oral school tution, have access to REALLY good health care/ insurance, be able to supplement speech therapy etc etc etc.
The question is, if families who don't fit that demographic can suceed that way.
There are kids who do well orally................but I mean it does seem like a lot of those kids are high functioning by ANY person's definition.
Can an AVERAGE family of a dhh kid do that well? I remember hearing or reading that even with oral training, a lot of orally trained kids still need 'terps, in educational and any sitution that isn't one-on one. Yes, the days of dhh kids with extremely poor oral abilty
And yes a sucessful oral kid doesn't have to "depend" on a 'terp, but so what? They are DEPENDANT on TECHNOLOGY, and cannot function without it. If their hearing aids/CIs fuck up....they are up shit creek without a paddle. Besides, what if they use oral 'terps? Can't they be said to be dependant on things like oral 'terps, and FM devices and things like that? Why don't those things create dependance?
 
Rick, you're still not understanding what I'm saying. I know very well that there are oral only kids who are very high acheiver types. That does not surprise me. Families who are high acheiving tend to be attracted to oral only (especially auditory-verbal) These are the very same parents who pile on the every day "enrichment" like, those programs that claim that they can have preschoolers reading, and identifying the works of Rennaisse artists. Those families also tend to be more sucessful, orally since they can relocate to oral schools easily, pay oral school tution, have access to REALLY good health care/ insurance, be able to supplement speech therapy etc etc etc.
The question is, if families who don't fit that demographic can suceed that way.
There are kids who do well orally................but I mean it does seem like a lot of those kids are high functioning by ANY person's definition.
Can an AVERAGE family of a dhh kid do that well? I remember hearing or reading that even with oral training, a lot of orally trained kids still need 'terps, in educational and any sitution that isn't one-on one. Yes, the days of dhh kids with extremely poor oral abilty
And yes a sucessful oral kid doesn't have to "depend" on a 'terp, but so what? They are DEPENDANT on TECHNOLOGY, and cannot function without it. If their hearing aids/CIs fuck up....they are up shit creek without a paddle. Besides, what if they use oral 'terps? Can't they be said to be dependant on things like oral 'terps, and FM devices and things like that? Why don't those things create dependance?

I agree, dd. There are back up plans for signing terps who are absent.......what's the back up plan for a kid whose CI malfunctions?
 
I get the same impression. But that just tells me that the motivation behind such attitudes is not what is best for the child, but what is best for the adult.

That's why I see some people as extremely selfish. Maybe they decided on that as ASL is too hard for them to learn. ;)
 
But Rick - do you agree that 1) lipreading is very hard, tiring, and takes time away from learning class information 2) terps fail to show up, is late, or not competent is not usual and can be fixed (replacement) and 3) ASL benefits the deaf/HoH kid?

Lipreading is very hard

From Center for Hearing Loss Help: Speachreading (lip-reading)

English is not a particularly easy language to speechread. Some languages are much easier (and some are even harder). The best estimates are that 30% to 35% of English sounds can be speechread. In order for a sound to be easily speechread, it must be formed on the lips and/or in the front of the mouth.

Unfortunately for us, we form many English sounds in the middle of our mouths. Others come from the back of our mouths and even in our throats. These latter are absolutely impossible to speechread.

As a result, a perfect speechreader only would be able to speechread about one third of what is said. They guess at the rest, taking into consideration their understanding of the spoken language, the body language of the speaker and the subject under discussion. Some people are remarkably good at guessing but no one is perfect.


Lipreading is tiring


From Center for Hearing Loss Help: Speachreading (lip-reading)

From A downside of speechreading, and one that is not obvious, is that it is very tiring, especially with someone who is hard to speechread in the first place. Fatigue is the constant companion of most hard of hearing people whether they realise it or not. Speechreading takes enormous concentration. We have to work very hard to understand what is being said. We must follow every lip movement, every facial expression, every gesture, to try to find meaning in what you are saying. We cannot relax our eyes for even a moment and have a nice easy conversation like people with normal hearing can.

Speechreading is not merely a matter of just watching speech movements, but includes considerable mental effort in making sense from an incompletely perceived message. In fact, I’ve heard our brains have to work five times as hard to understand speech as do those of people with normal hearing. In the course of a day, our brains have done as much mental gymnastics as a person with normal hearing does in a whole week! No wonder we get tired so fast!


Lipreading takes time away from learning class information

From Center for Hearing Loss Help: Speachreading (lip-reading)

Another downside of speechreading is that we spend so much of our time just trying to understand the words the person is saying that we can easily miss the meaning they are trying to communicate.

ASL benefits deaf/HoH kids

From Topics in Language Disorders, v18 n4 p47-60 Aug 1998: ASL Proficiency and English Literacy within a Bilingual Deaf Education Model of Instruction

Examines the theoretical models and arguments in the debate concerning possible relationships between natural sign language proficiency and English literacy. It presents findings of a study with 155 school-aged deaf children that supported such a connection.

---

From Journal of Deaf Studies and Deaf Education 2:1 1997: A Study of the Relationship Between American Sign Language and English Literacy

This article presents the findings of a study of the relationship between American Sign Language (ASL) skills and English literacy among 160 deaf children. Using a specially designed test of ASL to determine three levels of ASL ability, we found that deaf children who attained the higher two levels significantly outperformed children in the lowest ASL ability level in English literacy, regardless of age and IQ. Furthermore, although deaf children with deaf mothers outperformed deaf children of hearing mothers in both ASL and English literacy, when ASL level was held constant, there was no difference between these two groups, except in the lowest level of ASL ability. The implication of this research is straightforward and powerful: Deaf children's learning of English appears to benefit from the acquisition of even a moderate fluency in ASL.


---

From J Deaf Stud Deaf Educ. 1997 Summer;2(3):150-60: Modality of language shapes working memory: evidence from digit span and spatial span in ASL signers.

Deaf children who are native users of American Sign Language (ASL) and hearing children who are native English speakers performed three working memory tasks. Results indicate that language modality shapes the architecture of working memory. Digit span with forward and backward report, performed by each group in their native language, suggests that the language rehearsal mechanisms for spoken language and for sign language differ in their processing constraints. Unlike hearing children, deaf children who are native signers of ASL were as good at backward recall of digits as at forward recall, suggesting that serial order information for ASL is stored in a form that does not have a preferred directionality. Data from a group of deaf children who were not native signers of ASL rule out explanations in terms of a floor effect or a nonlinguistic visual strategy. Further, deaf children who were native signers outperformed hearing children on a nonlinguistic spatial memory task, suggesting that language expertise in a particular modality exerts an influence on nonlinguistic working memory within that modality. Thus, language modality has consequences for the structure of working memory, both within and outside the linguistic domain.

I can agree on all of this, but if you are a good lipreader than it gets easier. I know as over the years I gained so much by lipreading. A year and half ago I tested at 26% with my hearing aids without visual cues. With visual cues I test between 80 and 100%. I know this test is valid because I did this for 27 years.

Now I will say this, I look at speakreading and lipreading more to people who are HOH and not deaf. I know it is difficult to lipread when I am without my CIs or my HA. There is no sound to guild you. If you have sound to guild you then it is easier, my opinion.
 
One thing to consider also is that if the terp fails to show up for the class, is late or is not competent.

Certified Interpreters do not fails to show up in classes, the board of education hires them as employees, I have never experienced an interpreter fails to show up for class not once during my high school years.
 
EXACTLY!!!!! What Cloggy, Rick, and Jackie do not understand is that it takes a LOT of energy to "hear" and learn aurally. ..........
Really!!
And how did you get to that complete misunderstanding...???
As I recall, all three of us are raising / have raised a deaf child.... do you really believe the nonsense you posted?
 
Now I will say this, I look at speakreading and lipreading more to people who are HOH and not deaf. I know it is difficult to lipread when I am without my CIs or my HA. There is no sound to guild you. If you have sound to guild you then it is easier, my opinion.

I'm sorry but I disagree because matter of fact I'm completely deaf and I still do reply on lip-reading and still do uses my voice, even everyone around me understands me. It has nothing to do with how much you can hear to be able to lip-reading or speak. I grew up oral, so don't sit here and tell me that if you have no sound to guide you then you won't be able to lip-reading or speak well, that's BS, vallee. You think you know every deaf individuals out there, but you don't, You only know yourself.
 
That's why I see some people as extremely selfish. Maybe they decided on that as ASL is too hard for them to learn. ;)

Yeh, sometimes. I haven't met those people yet. Not here.

Sometimes it is parents that do not take the responsibility and do not make a decision, but are letting the child decide....
How selfish is that?

And then there are the parents that look around, investigate, make the best decision for the child, and work with the child to get the best results....
These parents I see here....
 
I can agree on all of this, but if you are a good lipreader than it gets easier. I know as over the years I gained so much by lipreading. A year and half ago I tested at 26% with my hearing aids without visual cues. With visual cues I test between 80 and 100%. I know this test is valid because I did this for 27 years.

Now I will say this, I look at speakreading and lipreading more to people who are HOH and not deaf. I know it is difficult to lipread when I am without my CIs or my HA. There is no sound to guild you. If you have sound to guild you then it is easier, my opinion.

As I said in this posting it was my opinion. It is the way I use it. I do better job lipreading with my CIs or HA then I do without. At night when I take my CIs off, I don't understand my family as well as I do with my CIs on even with lipreading.
 
I'm sorry but I disagree because matter of fact I'm completely deaf and I still do reply on lip-reading and still do uses my voice, even everyone around me understands me. It has nothing to do with how much you can hear to be able to lip-reading or speak. I grew up oral, so don't sit here and tell me that if you have no sound to guide you then you won't be able to lip-reading or speak well, that's BS, vallee. You think you know every deaf individuals out there, but you don't, You only know yourself.

that is true, but the same goes back to you. You only know yourself. We don't even know what our friends go through. Everyone is different that is why I said my opinion on the posting.

Just like we can make a generalization on the use of oral or ASL for ALL children and adults. It needs to be case by case. If we set up a generalization that all deaf/HOH children must learn sign language or all deaf/HOH children have to be oral, then we are not looking at each individual child. Just like not all people lipread, or lipread well.
 
I can agree on all of this, but if you are a good lipreader than it gets easier. I know as over the years I gained so much by lipreading. A year and half ago I tested at 26% with my hearing aids without visual cues. With visual cues I test between 80 and 100%. I know this test is valid because I did this for 27 years.

Now I will say this, I look at speakreading and lipreading more to people who are HOH and not deaf. I know it is difficult to lipread when I am without my CIs or my HA. There is no sound to guild you. If you have sound to guild you then it is easier, my opinion.

But lipreading in a class can by very hard. The teacher/professor turns to the board - nothing. Or looks down at notes or the desk - very little or nothing. A student behind you raises the hand and asks a question - can you see the student? If not, nothing. One student says something and then another right away - do you know the second student says something so you can watch? If not, nothing. The professor uses a new word (this happens a lot to me in college science and math classes especially but I get vocab sheets before class) - maybe you understand the word, maybe not. The professor/teacher has a beard, mumbles, has accent (a lot of my college professors) - maybe you understand half or much less.

Class is too important to miss and watching for everyone is so much work. Even if you miss only 10% of class lecture and discussion you miss information.

I'm glad you have success, Vallee. But this is not true for everyone of course and probably some students fail or miss some education when struggling with lipreading alone.
 
But lipreading in a class can by very hard. The teacher/professor turns to the board - nothing. Or looks down at notes or the desk - very little or nothing. A student behind you raises the hand and asks a question - can you see the student? If not, nothing. One student says something and then another right away - do you know the second student says something so you can watch? If not, nothing. The professor uses a new word (this happens a lot to me in college science and math classes especially but I get vocab sheets before class) - maybe you understand the word, maybe not. The professor/teacher has a beard, mumbles, has accent (a lot of my college professors) - maybe you understand half or much less.

Class is too important to miss and watching for everyone is so much work. Even if you miss only 10% of class lecture and discussion you miss information.

I'm glad you have success, Vallee. But this is not true for everyone of course and probably some students fail or miss some education when struggling with lipreading alone.

that is true, for me it worked. I used an FM system and note takers for both my bachlors and masters programs. so we can agree that for some it works and some it does not. It depends on the individual person.
 
Sometimes it is parents that do not take the responsibility and do not make a decision, but are letting the child decide....
How selfish is that?

If two hearing parents have a deaf/HoH baby and they don't learn ASL how will the baby? So the baby doesn't learn ASL because the parents don't - how is this "letting the child decide"? The parents decide, not the baby.
 
I agree with Cheri here, while some deaf people without hearing aids or cochlear implants are very skilled with lipreading while the others have diffcult time understanding lipreading is because sometimes hearing people are not moving their mouth wide enough or slow enough for them to understand clearly what this person is saying, it's the same thing to those who have hearing aids or cochlear implants especially when there is background noise going on then they wouldn't be able to lip read as well enough either. A lot of hearing people think that it is hard to talk to a deaf person because they can not hear, especially when deaf people often ask hearing people to repeat what they’ve said. I know I have, and I hate it when I do that because I can see it frustrate them having to repeat it again.
 
Just like we can make a generalization on the use of oral or ASL for ALL children and adults. It needs to be case by case. If we set up a generalization that all deaf/HOH children must learn sign language or all deaf/HOH children have to be oral, then we are not looking at each individual child. Just like not all people lipread, or lipread well.

But, hearing parents know their child's needs better than we do? We learned from our past experiences that our hearing parents don't always make the best decision or choices based on our needs. This is one reason why the mainly of us are here for to guide those hearing parents.

They really needs to pay attention and focus on their child's needs. If they're failing for a reason, that reason could be the choice or decision those parents gave them, it needs to be change to a different approach to make them improve. Even If the parents must learn a whole new language they cannot give their child limited opportunities what they think is best for themselves, they have do what's appropriate and what would work better for their child.

I grew up half of my life in oral method schooling, I spend half of my life relying on educating myself by lip-reading and speech. Until one person brought up sign language to my Dad, I was then send to another public school and an interpreter was given to me for the first time, I didn't feel blend in at the begin because it was different. Then I learned how easy it was having an interpreter translating everything the teacher was saying, total communication was the best out of all for myself, If I wasn't close to my teacher to see exactly what is being said it wouldn't be close to 100% accuracy. signs would be my back up in case there's some frustration. Most public school programs have been using a method of education called "Total Communication." so no child will be left behind, it beats sitting in an oral classroom with other hearing children trying to catch on word by word of what the teacher is saying.
 
I can agree on all of this, but if you are a good lipreader than it gets easier. I know as over the years I gained so much by lipreading. A year and half ago I tested at 26% with my hearing aids without visual cues. With visual cues I test between 80 and 100%. I know this test is valid because I did this for 27 years.

Now I will say this, I look at speakreading and lipreading more to people who are HOH and not deaf. I know it is difficult to lipread when I am without my CIs or my HA. There is no sound to guild you. If you have sound to guild you then it is easier, my opinion.

But a class room is far from an ideal situation for lipreading. Distance from the teacher, things being said out of the line of sight, lighting, etc. all contribute tothe ineffectiveness on lipreading in a classroom.
 
Certified Interpreters do not fails to show up in classes, the board of education hires them as employees, I have never experienced an interpreter fails to show up for class not once during my high school years.

And, if they must be absent, a substitute is there, just as if a teacher is unable to attend a class, a substitute teacher takes over.
 
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