A Parent's joy versus animal's torment.

[Nic]

Nope.... ask yourself, can you deafen the cats and conduct experiments on them knowing the two hearing systems are different...can you cause the pain and suffering on another living thing with this same understanding? Ethics and morals are personal and society influanced... people are okay with it until they are faced with the reality of somwthing...

You read and answered very litterally (most of those were just rhetorical questions), but missed the key word in there "absolutely". Absolutely would mean that an answer exists that would apply to all people. The vast majority (any sane person who isn't lying) would look at the answer and go "oh, ya, that's definitely true". Such an example might be is it ok to steal a baby from a parent and murder it for fun? I don't think any sane person who isn't lying would say that's ok. So there's a universally accepted answer, an absolute answer. No it's not ok to kill babies for fun.

Anything outside of those straight forward black and white questions doesn't have an absolute answer. If you and I disagree that killing 15 kittens to bring 200k people out of poverty is wrong or right, then there's no absolute answer (unless everyone else sides with one of us, or one of us is lying).

Whose happiness are you more concerned with though?

At the core, we're all most concerned with our own happiness. We don't do things that make ourselves unhappy, unless we think they will increase our happiness later, or that unhappiness has an instant happy outcome that is stronger than the unhappiness.

But most of us derive happiness from at least a few others, so we become concerned with their happiness as well. Parents become very concerned with their offspring's happiness. Some end up doing more harm than good in that regard.

For me, seeing any people happy makes me happy, I don't care who they are. I tend to defend and fight for the ones who are least likely to bring an increase to their own happiness at any given time, but doing this makes me happy, so in a way it's just me acting on my own desire for happiness. But if I'm already happy, does that still count?

I also typically side with anyone who is having their happiness suppressed by someone else, this also makes me happy. I'll even do something like sacrifice my own happiness to make everyone else happy, but really it's just because it makes me happy. Making other people happy, makes me happy, so I'm not really just making other people happy, I'm really just making myself happy. But if there were other ways to make myself happy instead, does that count?

Overall, I still naively think that the entire world can be happy at the same time and stay that way. I still don't know how to make that happen, though I'm slowly working on it.

 

[hoichi]

I'd like to think it's not just money vs. ethics. Hearing people believe hearing is a requirement for a high quality of life and by restoring hearing to newly born humans they are giving those children the best possible chance to have a quality life. ]

Its certainly driven by money. Im sure the stock holders of the multi national corps drilling holes into our babies heads at a quickining pase would hope so. It is a billion dollor bussiness. Dont kid yourself man
Hearie indeed believe this. That to be Deaf is an.awfull fate, thus anything, something is better then a Deaf baby..(gasp the horror!!)They also most generally believe sign isnt a language. They believe the above by ingrained to the bone audism.

It's obviously super controversial, and I'm still completely on the fence over the practice. I've read pros and cons, and I haven't been able to find enough statistics to sway me one way or the other yet

Have you read the mask of benevolence? Harlan lane explores your question amongst others. How much better to implanted kids actually do compared with Deaf kids given the support, and use sign?
The plm is the hearie measure success in this by speach. Its a framed and cooked aparatua to justify the rush to drill, to hell with us...

The whole ethics realm is actually insanely difficult. If you had to maim and kill 15 cats to save hundreds, or thousands, or hundreds of thousands of humans, should it be done?

What if it was 15 humans to save hundreds of thousands?

What if it was 1 human for a chance to save millions?

There are infinite scenarios, and the answers change between people, cultures, time periods, etc. These questions are also where heroes are born, like the guys at Fukushima who stayed to keep the reactor meltdown from being worse than it was.]

The above is interesting, but not veey relavent in my eyes, i think onw should be asking who is sacrificing whom? Thqt certainly changes things...

The Ethics question that interests me right now is the old trolly problem. This used to be really abstract and hypothetical, but with programmers having to program driverless cars, the trolly problem is real now. Someone has to answer this, and then program a car to respond accordingly under these scenarios.

The trolly problem:
There is a runaway trolley barreling down the railway tracks. Ahead, on the tracks, there are five people tied up and unable to move. The trolley is headed straight for them. You are standing some distance off in the train yard, next to a lever. If you pull this lever, the trolley will switch to a different set of tracks. However, you notice that there is one person on the side track. You have two options: (1) Do nothing, and the trolley kills the five people on the main track. (2) Pull the lever, diverting the trolley onto the side track where it will kill one person. Which is the correct choice?

Interesting

 

[caz]

yep hearing parents take good look at CI child chucking guts up bc migraines and if you had hearing then CI going be disappointment..For many they work but myself would like child be old enough make educated chose On this forum many had CI and happy, fair play to them.I don't have opinion either way but if read post of Bot BEB hoichi born deaf they get on with life..I was not good candidate but if offered one now I not take it but if I been able have one at time I would rushed to have it and it would been mostly for other peoples sake everyone saying you must be depressed lost hearing actualy I was not but others were and thought I should be, my deafness making life bad for them that what made me depressed if people stopped telling me my life had ended as I knew it. lot of BS you adapt and hope others meet you half way..Unfortunatly not perfect world.
I also on forum for people with epilepsy uk forum I known met them for years. some of them have awful life and need brain surgery some would die and many have had child die with it,i know surgery they had/have pioneer work and it animal experiment that enable this. Most primates suffer same sorts of epilepsy SO instead of breeding animals to have brains cut up use an animal that already got it thus animal got nothing to lose but may well gain and so would the human if it fails then such is life you did your best by animal and human..Such emotive question

 

[Jezie]

Overall, I still naively think that the entire world can be happy at the same time and stay that way.

This I have to agree with... you seek for what there is no possibility of... from hapoiness to studies....
I did not miss the "absolutely" aspect of your statement... I actually addressed it... for within ethics and morals it can only be measured within your heart... absolutes do not fully exisit...

 

[hoichi]

I really have a hard time feeling bad about animals who are experimented on when we raise animals under horrible conditions so we can eat them.

There might be a few thousand animals that are used for testing each year, but we raise and slaughter billions of animals for eating every single year. It's always ignored, and it's insane to ignore. I don't get it.

Why not feel bad for both the aninals being tortured for loot viw experiements and the animals bieng factory farmed
One doesnt negate the other...
The reaaon.why its ignored, is the same reaaon those with ci hwve ignored this thread
The truth hurts....it really does..and few want to take a hard look at selfishness, and its ramifications
So
Ignoring is ususally the way

 

[caz]

factory farming that is gross something we could all do something about.It the old loot problem

 

[Nic]

Why not feel bad for both the aninals being tortured for loot viw experiements and the animals bieng factory farmed
One doesnt negate the other...
The reaaon.why its ignored, is the same reaaon those with ci hwve ignored this thread
The truth hurts....it really does..and few want to take a hard look at selfishness, and its ramifications
So
Ignoring is ususally the way

Well true, one doesn't negate the other, but why don't people focus on the bigger problem instead of a tiny insignificant number like 16?

In the US we eat 9B chickens every year. 9 Billion... We kill 9B chickens annually. That's more chickens than there are people on the planet, and that's just the US.

So why on earth would I care about 16 cats when we killed 9B chickens and nobody batted an eye?

There's also this whole natural cycle of life and death and the brutality of nature in general. Why do we believe we're less brutal than nature (We're not, we killed 9B chickens last year).

Is it because eating other animals is normal, and thus ok? But raising them for consumption isn't natural... No other animal breed their food. It's ludicrous. 9 Billion. We also killed 65 Billion shellfish.

Blue whales eat trillions of Plankton though...

Man, I don't know. It seems pretty messed up. Or maybe it's just completely normal, and for some reason we're going against nature by fighting the death of other animals.

Honestly, I think farming will go away. We'll have artificially made nutrient and food as we know it will go away. It's just no sustainable if our population keeps increasing.

 

[Nic]

This I have to agree with... you seek for what there is no possibility of... from hapoiness to studies....
I did not miss the "absolutely" aspect of your statement... I actually addressed it... for within ethics and morals it can only be measured within your heart... absolutes do not fully exisit...

There is only no possibility so long as people believe there is no possibility. There is in fact a possibility. Anything is possible... anything at all; but only if given enough time.

 

[hoichi]

Well true, one doesn't negate the other, but why don't people focus on the bigger problem instead of a tiny insignificant number like 16?

In the US we eat 9B chickens every year. 9 Billion... We kill 9B chickens annually. That's more chickens than there are people on the planet, and that's just the US.

So why on earth would I care about 16 cats when we killed 9B chickens and nobody batted an eye?

There's also this whole natural cycle of life and death and the brutality of nature in general. Why do we believe we're less brutal than nature (We're not, we killed 9B chickens last year).

Is it because eating other animals is normal, and thus ok? But raising them for consumption isn't natural... No other animal breed their food. It's ludicrous. 9 Billion. We also killed 65 Billion shellfish.

Blue whales eat trillions of Plankton though...

Man, I don't know. It seems pretty messed up. Or maybe it's just completely normal, and for some reason we're going against nature by fighting the death of other animals.

Honestly, I think farming will go away. We'll have artificially made nutrient and food as we know it will go away. It's just no sustainable if our population keeps increasing.

I agree with you, re fctory farming. I think it has allot to do with people just caught up in the specticle of the rat race,they hardly give a damn about others, so chickens are way down the list.
But what the majority thinks has no bearing on my thoughts unless im a folower.
I care about the cats bieing tortured for profit because its a heanous act, and its relavent to getting to some poeple not entirely brianwashed with the hype of ci, the truth of the companies involved.
We believe we are less brutal then nature because we have the faculty of reason, and are consious of ourselves, our place here, we are self aware, thus while granted we have done and do plenty of brutul acts, we live under the rule of law, not just soley the rule of instinct. The mere fact we are discussing it, demonstates the human uniquness. Right or wrong..
Chickens are not custodiians of this world. We may disagree, but as it stands we are the only ones here with numes, and the power to drasticaly ruin lifes chances here, when chickens or repriles get nukes, then they can bw the custodians.but until then...we are.and as such .have a larger responsibility, we generally choose to ignore it for profits sake, .. the responsibity remains nontheless
Wether we wish to admit it or not. There is certain heircarchy in life. (Im an anarchist to be clear), what i mean by this is sure we kill billiona of shelfish, and god knows how many bacteria a year, but the cycle of life in this world is based on cunsuption. We need to eat and drink. Or like all animals we will parish.
Its not that we are going against nature fighting industrial farming, or torturing cats,, we possess reason to determine if those actions are good or short sited

 

[BleedingPurist]

Why not feel bad for both the aninals being tortured for loot viw experiements and the animals bieng factory farmed
One doesnt negate the other...
The reaaon.why its ignored, is the same reaaon those with ci hwve ignored this thread
The truth hurts....it really does..and few want to take a hard look at selfishness, and its ramifications
So
Ignoring is ususally the way

The thread is being ignored not because of "truth hurts," but because it is not news, it's being brought up in simple minded terms, and that like it or not. .. CIs are a medical treatment. Medical treatments of all sorts involve other animal-types trials. It's not about life vs death. Quality of life is involved as well.

The reality is that most of the world finds importance in being able to hear and a handful of deafies that find no value in it will not change that fact.

Don't forget while trotting out "the children" that CIs also bring back hearing for adults. You're going to get nowhere with being dismissive over CIs as a treatment for hearing when you're talking to an adult who now has their quality of life back because of their CI.

 

[hoichi]

[

The thread is being ignored not because of "truth hurts," but because it is not news,CI.

States you. But my take differs. And its clear to me contrary to your rubbish, its more about the truth hurting. As for this not bieng news.. what is the date of the article?

it's being brought up in simple minded terms,

Feel free to bring it up in complex minded terms

and that like it or not. .. CIs are a medical treatmentCI.

Thats one way to frame them. Another is ci is a technology of normalization used and implented in cultural genocide

. Medical treatments of all sorts involve other animal-types trials. CI.

Yes

It's not about life vs death. Quality of life is involved as well. CI.

Right...by what measure is the quality gaged?

The reality is that most of the world finds importance in being able to hear and a handful of deafies that find no value in it will not change that fact. CI.

Yes, the hearie world has made it crystal clear what us Deaf think or hold regarding ci is irrelavant. Our babies will get drilled into. We will be assiimilted..to hell with us.

Don't forget while trotting out "the children" that CIs also bring back hearing for adults. You're going to get nowhere with being dismissive over CIs as a treatment for hearing when you're talking to an adult who now has their quality of life back because of their CI.

I dont want to get anywhere with you. Its clear your an adherent to ci ideology. And your an adult. I dont care what adults do. If you want to drill yoursef another asshole so be it..
But this isnt about adults
They come for our babies. And thats the line many Deaf who have not been berrated and bullied into silience take. Im one of those guys who doesnt get phased by bullies, or berated into silence and submission. Sucks for you..
But im a live one...
"-)
Do your worst
Meh

 

[ambrosia]

I'm just swinging by to give props to Nic, for asking excellent questions, displaying a level of thought and intelligence that is not often seen on this forum. Kudos

Also I find it a bit interesting that being a human and deaf is fine and dandy, flowers and sunshine but deafening a cat is torture. That's fascinating.

 

[Nic]

The thread is being ignored not because of "truth hurts," but because it is not news, it's being brought up in simple minded terms, and that like it or not. .. CIs are a medical treatment. Medical treatments of all sorts involve other animal-types trials. It's not about life vs death. Quality of life is involved as well.

The reality is that most of the world finds importance in being able to hear and a handful of deafies that find no value in it will not change that fact.

Don't forget while trotting out "the children" that CIs also bring back hearing for adults. You're going to get nowhere with being dismissive over CIs as a treatment for hearing when you're talking to an adult who now has their quality of life back because of their CI.

I agree that "the children" isn't really the strongest argument. I think where the communication burden falls is, and it's especially true when thinking about deaf children of hearing parents.

We all know that it's not terribly easy to communicate orally for someone who has significant hearing loss. And CIs don't bring back perfect hearing. It might let you function like a HOH of adult, but not like a normal hearing person unless you're really lucky. Being HOH with oral communication isn't much fun, it's actually damned frustrating sometimes. The burden of communication falls on you heavily.

Hoichi proposes a different solution to the same problem; Sign. I get that it doesn't work for everyone, and I'm personally still torn over this idea of early implants for kids without giving them a choice in the matter. But a dual lingual (BiBi) approach seems best from everything I've read so far. It splits the communication burden between the kids and the parents, and it lets the kid choose which culture they want to identify with as they get older. Actually, I seem to have made up my mind on the subject. From my somewhat outside perspective, BiBi seems to be the best choice. And CI is a valid option with BiBi. So for the culture argument I'm done now.


Hoichi, why don't you push for BiBi? It'd preserve the culture if the culture is worthwhile, kids would grow up with both hearing and deaf culture, learn ASL but have the opportunities that hearing presents. Best of both worlds.

If at the core, your only real argument is that implanting kids takes away their choice, then you're just wrong. Both with and without takes away choice. Either you take away the kids opportunity to grow up with some level of sound, or you take away the kids opportunity to grow up in a silent world. Either way, as a parent, you make a choice for your kid. Yes they can get it later, but they can get it removed later too.

This is less about the actual implant than the culture and upbringing, right?

If at the core your argument is that implanting is an unnatural, then fine but we do so much unnatural stuff to ourselves and our offspring that it won't hold up to anyone except the naturalist types, or maybe people who are terribly surgery averse. The risks with the surgery aren't all that terrible in the first world.

 

[Nic]

I'm just swinging by to give props to Nic, for asking excellent questions, displaying a level of thought and intelligence that is not often seen on this forum. Kudos

Also I find it a bit interesting that being a human and deaf is fine and dandy, flowers and sunshine but deafening a cat is torture. That's fascinating.

Wow, thanks Ambrosia.

I'm pretty interested in the topic. CI came up in a recent appt. with my ENT. If my hearing keeps declining it'll probably be a decision I'll have to make, or well, at least explore if it'll be a possibility.

I'd also like to thank you for sharing your experience. I read through your whole thread and it's just great that people here share. Fills in a lot of blanks

 

[ambrosia]

yep hearing parents take good look at CI child chucking guts up bc migraines and if you had hearing then CI going be disappointment

I used to 100% hearing perfectly. My CI has been activated for ohhhhhh, 5 days. I'm not the least bit disappointed. It's freaking awesome.

I think a CI would be most disappointing to someone who was born deaf and was implanted as a teen or an adult. You know, one of those people that you think shouldn't be implanted as a baby and should wait til they're "old enough". By then they missed the boat, the ship has sailed for optimal results, seeing as how auditory pathways are laid as infants and toddlers. By giving a choice, you actually take the choice away. If you implant as a baby they can always choose not to wear the processor later and just be deaf. I have a CI, I'm still deaf whenever I want to be. That's choice. The reason I'm doing so well with my CI, even getting implanted at 40 years old is BECAUSE I used to be hearing.

 

[hoichi]

I'm just swinging by to give props to Nic, for asking excellent questions, displaying a level of thohi hiught and intelligence that is not often seen on this forum. Kudos

Also I find it a bit interesting that being a human and deaf is fine and dandy, flowers and sunshine but deafening a cat is torture. That's fascinating.

Hi ambrosia....
I wouldnt state being deaf is fine and dandy..deaf is still viwing oneself rhrough the hearie medical paradigm, as deafness as a curse, in need of a cure.
The gift of being Deaf isnt in the medical paradigm, the capital D the gift is our culture, language and community.
Cats cant sign can they?

 

[Nic]

I used to 100% hearing perfectly. My CI has been activated for ohhhhhh, 5 days. I'm not the least bit disappointed. It's freaking awesome.

I think a CI would be most disappointing to someone who was born deaf and was implanted as a teen or an adult. You know, one of those people that you think shouldn't be implanted as a baby and should wait til they're "old enough". By then they missed the boat, the ship has sailed for optimal results, seeing as how auditory pathways are laid as infants and toddlers. By giving a choice, you actually take the choice away. If you implant as a baby they can always choose not to wear the processor later and just be deaf. I have a CI, I'm still deaf whenever I want to be. That's choice. The reason I'm doing so well with my CI, even getting implanted at 40 years old is BECAUSE I used to be hearing.

Ya, everything I read, and just from thinking about it, it's obvious that CI would be most beneficial to born deaf as early as possible.

For a while hoichi stumped me and I waffled thinking that it is removing a choice from the kid, but either way you remove a choice, with or without. Then I waffled because surgery on a kid is lame, but again it's not a terribly unsafe surgery and the potential benefit is pretty clear to me (also grew up 100% hearing). I wouldn't have to think twice about surgery to correct abnormal bone growth in a baby/kid, for example. I'd worry, but I know what I'd choose.

My hunch is that Deaf kids who grow up with oral comm are more likely to do well throughout life, but I can't find statistics on it. CI would make oral comm incredibly easier. I think a Bilingual, Bicultural approach would be best, ASL + Oral comm + CI/HA. that way the communication burden is shared, and ASL provides easy entry into the Deaf community. I think Deaf school could be a good route too, but this would depend on what's available in the area.

Mostly I've made up my mind (though I don't plan on having kids). I'd also explore the possibility of CI for myself if/when I get to that point. I'm not a fan of surgery, but statistically it's less frightening than just thinking about the process.

I'm still curious where the strong feelings against come from exactly though.

 

[BleedingPurist]

[they come for our babies.

Do your worst
Meh

They aren't your babies.

Continuing to claim them will not go over well with anyone. It is absolutely nuts.

 

[ambrosia]

Since when do cars communicate orally? And since when does a cat actually listen? Cats do what the **** they want hahaha dogs listen, cats not so much

 

[Nic]

Hi ambrosia....
I wouldnt state being deaf is fine and dandy..deaf is still viwing oneself rhrough the hearie mesical paradigm, as deafnwss as a curse, in need of a cure.
The gift of being Deaf isnt in the medical paradigm, the capital D the gift is our culture, language and community.
Cats cant sign can they?

But Hoichi, you can be Deaf with a CI or two. CIs don't deny entry into Deaf culture. Upbringing and opportunities do that.