A Parent's joy versus animal's torment.

[ambrosia]

Do they even "drill into your head"? I don't think so. I could be wrong but don't they just wrap the electrodes under the skull?

 

[Nic]

Do they even "drill into your head"? I don't think so. I could be wrong but don't they just wrap the electrodes under the skull?

I think they take some skull bone away for the implant. Might not be always though, and different implants do have different surgeries.

 

[ambrosia]

Ya, everything I read, and just from thinking about it, it's obvious that CI would be most beneficial to born deaf as early as possible.

For a while hoichi stumped me and I waffled thinking that it is removing a choice from the kid, but either way you remove a choice, with or without. Then I waffled because surgery on a kid is lame, but again it's not a terribly unsafe surgery and the potential benefit is pretty clear to me (also grew up 100% hearing). I wouldn't have to think twice about surgery to correct abnormal bone growth in a baby/kid, for example. I'd worry, but I know what I'd choose.

My hunch is that Deaf kids who grow up with oral comm are more likely to do well throughout life, but I can't find statistics on it. CI would make oral comm incredibly easier. I think a Bilingual, Bicultural approach would be best, ASL + Oral comm + CI/HA. that way the communication burden is shared, and ASL provides easy entry into the Deaf community. I think Deaf school could be a good route too, but this would depend on what's available in the area.

Mostly I've made up my mind (though I don't plan on having kids). I'd also explore the possibility of CI for myself if/when I get to that point. I'm not a fan of surgery, but statistically it's less frightening than just thinking about the process.

I'm still curious where the strong feelings against come from exactly though.

I, myself have asked some of those same questions and would love definitive answers!!! But!! If you stick around and visit all the areas of the forum, through observation and learning more about members you may come to some conclusions on your own. I don't come around much anymore, from what I've seen the forum doesn't seem quite as active as it used to be....so maybe not.

 

[hoichi]

[

I agree that "the children" isn't really the strongest argument. I think where the communication burden falls is, and it's especially true when thinking about deaf children of hearing parents. d.

Which argument are you refering? The one droned about how ci is better fo Deaf kids? But never demonstretes how well implqnted kids actually do compared to Deaf kids who sign and allowed support?

IWe all know that it's not terribly easy to communicate orally for someone who has significant hearing loss. And CIs don't bring back perfect hearing. It might let you function like a HOH of adult, but not like a normal hearing person unless you're really lucky. Being HOH with oral communication isn't much fun, it's actually damned frustrating sometimes. The burden of communication falls on you heavily.
d.

Alright

Hoichi proposes a different solution to the same problem; Sign. I get that it doesn't work for everyone, and I'm personally still torn over this idea of early implants for kids without giving them a choice in the matter. But a dual lingual (BiBi) approach seems best from everything I've read so far. It splits the communication burden between the kids and the parents, and it lets the kid choose which culture they want to identify with as they get older. Actually, I seem to have made up my mind on the subject. From my somewhat outside perspective, BiBi seems to be the best choice. And CI is a valid option with BiBi. So for the culture argument I'm done now.
d.

You are aware that those who implant, the professionala involved still hold the child should not sign lest the chilld revert to being Deaf. You are ignoring a fundimental cohercion at work. Sure, as of late an article was published n an industry journal stating bi bi, but thats one article, its not the standard approach in the insustry

Hoichi, why don't you push for BiBi? It'd preserve the culture if the culture is worthwhile, kids would grow up with both hearing and deaf culture, learn ASL but have the opportunities that hearing presents. Best of both worlds.
d.

Why cant hearie parents learn sign? Mine did.

IIf at the core, your only real argument is that implanting kids takes away their choice, then you're just wrong. Both with and without takes away choice. Either you take away the kids opportunity to grow up with some level of sound, or you take away the kids opportunity to grow up in a silent world. Either way, as a parent, you make a choice for your kid. Yes they can get it later, but they can get it removed later too.
d.

Thats not my argument at all. Fact is. Ci isnt nor was it only ever about implanting babies to make them medicaly hear. That was one huge part of it. The other part still ongoing was the denying of sign to the baby lest the Deaf baby revert to being Deaf. Sign Is our language, language the root of culture. If you deny one, the other is being denied.

IThis is less about the actual implant than the culture and upbringing, right?

If at the core your argument is that implanting is an unnatural, then fine but we do so much unnatural stuff to ourselves and our offspring that it won't hold up to anyone except the naturalist types, or maybe people who are terribly surgery averse. The risks with the surgery aren't all that terrible in the first world.

This is about assimliation. And denying our baies thier birthright language and culrure. Its ideologicly driven. Its just oralisma latest hammer taken to our culture and language. It is to qoute paddy lad "oralisms final solution"
Another book besides the harlan lane one you should read, and is that is blanced is called the artifical ear

 

[ambrosia]

I think they take some skull bone away for the implant. Might not be always though, and different implants do have different surgeries.

Right, make a little notch for it to sit in, some surgeons do and some don't. I don't think mine is I can feel mine, it's not flush, at all, but I don't think think they drill through the skull at all. It's a 2 hour outpatient surgery, going right home after. They don't even give you the good drugs haha.

 

[hoichi]

They aren't your babies.

Continuing to claim them will not go over well with anyone. It is absolutely nuts.

They are as much our babies then any baby born to any other culture and language users.
You have holes.drilled into your head and a conputer in your skull
Call me nuts all you want
Meh
Ill drill another hole into you for cheap if you want..i have a rusty black and decker laying around

 

[ambrosia]

Hoichi you should get with the times man!! Doctors don't recommend that children with a CI don't sign. 10 years ago the family that lived across the hall from me had a deaf daughter that was implanted as a baby. She was 2 when they moved in, a person came to them every week to work with the family learning ASL. Lots of family opt to CI AND sign, I think that's the best route.

 

[caz]

that why I don't have opinion on CI I read conflicting arguments..i have been told not so many being done these days.You like me born good hearing and lost it. CI was never going to be an option for me...I learnt to redefine success but took long time..i have met deafie's who use deafness as a shield but they not only ones
you as someone with CI would you put child through ( bad chose of words) it how would you see it,do you see it as giving a child a better chance define it more..Many don't see deafness as an illness I am one so why do you need treat it..Many deaf do feel threatened as certain ways of life finishing many feel isolated...As deaf parent who did knows joys of hearing I would still find it hard as there no rights or wrongs..Adults different IF IT fails you already aware that could happen..Maybe it comes down to value or quality...I have been told if got no quality then I have no value which is BS

with different medial breakthroughs etc dna better hearing aids etc human tissue testing animal testing get less...One of things I find replusive in country like the States the conditions animals kept in very grim..
So late unable to discuss it mid night here

 

[Nic]

Which argument are you refering? The one droned about how ci is better fo Deaf kids? But never demonstretes how well implqnted kids actually do compared to Deaf kids who sign and allowed support?

I was referring to your argument in the simplest form "they come for our children"

You are aware that those who implant, the professionala involved still hold the child should not sign lest the chilld revert to being Deaf. You are ignoring a fundimental cohercion at work. Sure, as of late an article was published n an industry journal stating bi bi, but thats one article, its not the standard approach in the insustry

This isn't up to the doctors, it's up to the parents. I don't care what they recommend. Whether or not you get a CI doens't mean they will change their recommendation. The parents need to make this decision themselves. I personally would choose ASL + CI and a BiBi upbringing with maybe Deaf school (depends on what's available, the quality of the school, etc. I haven't looked into this at all). I gathered my BiBi knowledge from this forum, and stories I've read elsewhere from parents and Deaf folks. The fact is, most Deaf are also still part of hearing culture too.

Why cant hearie parents learn sign? Mine did.

I think they should learn sign. But not learning to orally communicate hurts Deaf kids down the road. Oral Deaf are going to get better jobs and have more opportunity than sign-only Deaf. It's not fair, but it's true.

Thats not my argument at all. Fact is. Ci isnt nor was it only ever about implanting babies to make them medicaly hear. That was one huge part of it. The other part still ongoing was the denying of sign to the baby lest the Deaf baby revert to being Deaf. Sign Is our language, language the root of culture. If you deny one, the other is being denied.

I don't agree with denying sign, but learning ASL and having a CI aren't mutually exclusive.

This is about assimliation. And denying our baies thier birthright language and culrure. Its ideologicly driven. Its just oralisma latest hammer taken to our culture and language. It is to qoute paddy lad "oralisms final solution"
Another book besides the harlan lane one you should read, and is that is blanced is called the artifical ear

No CI isn't about denying babies a language. That's a separate decision. That's what happens when a parent decides not to teach their kid a given language, in this case ASL.

But if you raise a kid ASL only, you deny them from mainstream culture and make their life harder if they want to be part of mainstream hearing culture in the future.

Again, I think both is best. ASL + CI + Oral

 

[hoichi]

Hoichi you should get with the times man!! Doctors don't recommend that children with a CI don't sign. 10 years ago the family that lived across the hall from me had a deaf daughter that was implanted as a baby. She was 2 when they moved in, a person came to them every week to work with the family learning ASL. Lots of family opt to CI AND sign, I think that's the best route.

Hi ambrosia
Its still common girl. I am with the times,i have an interest in the industry.and am up to date. I dont deny some recomend sign, im looking qt the larger industry practice.

 

[hoichi]

Do they even "drill into your head"? I don't think so. I could be wrong but don't they just wrap the electrodes under the skull?

A drill by any other name, .....
So they call it a wrap around now, hope you got kissed too "-)

 

[hoichi]

[

I was referring to your argument in the simplest form "they come for our children"l

O i c...so do they? Or are you denying Deaf babies are getting implanted at a rapid pace?

This isn't up to the doctors, it's up to the parents. l

indeed. But your ignoring socially conditioned free will, and power relations. How much clear free choice do you think is excercised by scared parents who have been told their baby is daef (gasp the horror), and are being peddled products by white coated doctors promising a maricle cure?

I don't care what they recommend. Whether or not you get a CI doens't mean they will change their recommendation. The parents need to make this decision themselves. l

Right. And one on hand you have billion dollor industry with the best advertising deep pockets can buy and the other two scared parents and a new deaf baby..

I waI personally would choose ASL + CI and a BiBi upbringing with maybe Deaf school (depends on what's available, the quality of the school, etc. I haven't looked into this at all). I gathered my BiBi knowledge from this forum, and stories I've read elsewhere from parents and Deaf folks. The fact is, most Deaf are also still part of hearing culture too.l

Alright.

I think they should learn sign. But not learning to orally communicate hurts Deaf kids down the road. Oral Deaf are going to get better jobs and have more opportunity than sign-only Deaf. It's not fair, but it's true.l

Thats a symptom of rampant audism. Why couldnt we just make black people white with medication and skin bleach, it would of saved allot of racial society plms, your just stating make us hearie, or as close as they can..

I don't agree with denying sign, but learning ASL and having a CI aren't mutually exclusive.l

But your not an industry insider right?
You dont make policy

No CI isn't about denying babies a language. That's a separate decision. That's what happens when a parent decides not to teach their kid a given language, in this case ASL. l

If its not about denying a language and culture then why do professionals insist and many still do not to teach the child sign lest they revert to bieng Deaf? You clearly dont know the history here. But your an inteligent guy and a quick study, so i recomended a couple books to get you started.

But if you raise a kid ASL only, you deny them from mainstream culture and make their life harder if they want to be part of mainstream hearing culture in the future.l

Indeed, it would of been better to make blacks white then any other ways we came up with to adress discrimination[/QUOTE]

 

[hoichi]

Since when do cars communicate orally? And since when does a cat actually listen? Cats do what the **** they want hahaha dogs listen, cats not so much

Indeed.
Felines are interetsing beasts, but when it comes to paying heed to us, they tolerate us...
And know where the food comes from...thats about it
A pooch....
Poochs re closer to how we think

 

[Nic]

[


O i c...so do they? Or are you denying Deaf babies are getting implanted at a rapid pace?



indeed. But your ignoring socially conditioned free will, and power relations. How much clear free choice do you think is excercised by scared parents who have been told their baby is daef (gasp the horror), and are being peddled products by white coated doctors promising a maricle cure?



Right. And one on hand you have billion dollor industry with the best advertising deep pockets can buy and the other two scared parents and a new deaf baby..


Alright.




Thats a symptom of rampant audism. Why couldnt we just make black people white with medication and skin bleach, it would of saved allot of racial society plms, your just stating make us hearie, or as close as they can..


But your not an industry insider right?
You dont make policy



If its not about denying a language and culture then why do professionals insist and many still do not to teach the child sign lest they revert to bieng Deaf? You clearly dont know the history here. But your an intelegent guy and a quick study, so i recomended a couple books to get you started.




Indeed, it would of been better to make blacks white then any other ways we came up with to adress discrimination

[/QUOTE]
I'm on a tablet now so quoting super failed.

It's not the same as making blacks white, and skin color doesn't dictate culture. It's giving a sense back to a kid born without it. The surgery actually makes them stand out more, makes their deafness more visible. Then teaching them 2 languages (I still advocate for this). So if anything its more like teaching your Mexican kid English and Spanish instead of Spanish only but living in the US, but more extreme because we're talking about a whole sense not just the language.

Your arguments are scattered. On one hand you're all anti-CI but your reasoning is mostly related to learning ASL, which is a separate issue no matter how much you want to tie them together. Then you're all about the preservation of Deaf culture, but you deny that bicultural can preserve Deaf culture and gives opportunity that wouldn't otherwise be there helping born Deaf thrive in a oral majority culture.

 

[hoichi]

[

I'm on a tablet now so quoting super failed.

No plm[/QUOTE]

It's not the same as making blacks white,

I never claimed they where the same. What the issue is, is descrimination. Your using descrimination to justify implanting. Your stating, oralism will be better for jobs, so on, but the reason that is is due to descrimination. So, i asked a valid question in regards to discrimination of blacks. They where and are descriminted against due to skin color, why not use science to make them white?

and skin color doesn't dictate culture. It's giving a sense back to a kid born without it. The surgery actually makes them stand out more, makes their deafness more visible. Then teaching them 2 languages (I still advocate for this). So if anything its more like teaching your Mexican kid English and Spanish instead of Spanish only but living in the US, but more extreme because we're talking about a whole sense not just the language.

Alright.

Your arguments are scattered.

Well im crazy,

On one hand you're all anti-CI but your reasoning is mostly related to learning ASL, which is a separate issue no matter how much you want to tie them together.

Im not the one who put them together, they did...by policies,

Then you're all about the preservation of Deaf culture, but you deny that bicultural can preserve Deaf culture and gives opportunity that wouldn't otherwise be there helping born Deaf thrive in a oral majority culture.

I dont deny that. I simply asked a question.
Why cant perents learn sign, in regards to your statement in that post indeed i am for the preservation of our culture, no doubt my opinion differs from yours. Ive been in this fight a long time man
Now your statement its an oral majority culture, yes indeed it is. just as its a White majority culture
So i again ask
Why is using medical sicence on us for assimilation lauded and worthy, why didnt we use medical science on blacks to assimimilate them?
The plm re oralism or majority oral culture is one of discrimination.

 

[Nic]

[


No plm



I never claimed they where the same. What the issue is, is descrimination. Your using descrimination to justify implanting. Your stating, oralism will be better for jobs, so on, but the reason that is is due to descrimination. So, i askes a valid question in regards to discrimination regarding blaks.


Alright.


Well im crazy,



Im not the one who put them together, they did...by policies,


I dont deny that. I simply asked a question.
Why cant perentvens learn sign, in regards to your statement in that post indeed i am for the preservation of our culture, no doubt my opinion differs from yours. Ive been in this fight a long time man
Regarding your statement ts an oral majority culture, just as its. White majority culture
So i agin ask
Why is using medical sicence on us for assimilation lauded and worthy, why didnt we use medical science on blacks to assimimilate them?
The plm re oralism or majority oral culture is one of discrimination.

Parents should learn sign. That's what you should be pushing for instead of against CI. Push for learning ASL. Be pro Deaf culture in a way that doesn't alienate an ever growing population of people. Pushing for ASL takes a positive approach and there are strong pro-ASL arguments that you can make than anti-CI arguments.

I think Deaf culture and ASL should stick around. I think it's unfair to put the communication burden on the Deaf/hoh person only. But in the real world most people hear. English is the national language. And there are plenty of jobs that simply require communicating orally in English.

The simple fact is an oral Deaf has more opportunity than a non-oral. It's not fair, its not right, but it is reality. Minorities always have to compromise to have the same opportunity as the majority. It's an unfortunate part of the world we live in.

 

[HOH-ME]

Do they even "drill into your head"? I don't think so. I could be wrong but don't they just wrap the electrodes under the skull?

They drill a small hole through the skull to access the cochlea for the actual electrode to be inserted. Some surgeons shave part of the cranium to seat the implant, but not all do. It's still a pretty minimally invasive surgery all and all.

 

[hoichi]

[

Parents should learn sign. .

Yes they should and so should implanted Deaf babies and children. Now go tell that to the professionals in the ci idustry . Thank you

That's what you should be pushing for instead of against CI.

To be clear. Im not against ci. Im against implanting babies and children. Adults can do what ever the hell want to with themeselves. Ive been clear regarding this plenty on here. The above is a philosophical postion. Im not an authoeitarian thus i wont dictate to adults what they should do. I take the same postition with drugs.

Push for learning ASL. Be pro Deaf culture in a way that doesn't alienate an ever growing population of people.in.

Who are you refering? Who is alienated by what arguments?

Pushing for ASL takes a positive approach and there are strong pro-ASL arguments that you can make than anti-CI arguments.in.

Again my argument is with implanting babies and.children. adults can drill themselves another asshole if thats what they want.

I think Deaf culture and ASL should stick around. I think it's unfair to put the communication burden on the Deaf/hoh person only. But in the real world most people hear. English is the national language. And there are plenty of jobs that simply require communicating orally in English. in.

We can communicate and have without speaking. We know english. You ae dronning on here about speaking...its not a new argument. We have faced and felt the effects of oralism for a rather long time.

The simple fact is an oral Deaf has more opportunity than a non-oral. It's not fair, its not right, but it is reality. Minorities always have to compromise to have the same opportunity as the majority. It's an unfortunate part of the world we live in.

Thats a nice argument for the justification of discrimination. I grant you that

 

[Reba]

. . . The trolly problem:
There is a runaway trolley barreling down the railway tracks. Ahead, on the tracks, there are five people tied up and unable to move. The trolley is headed straight for them. You are standing some distance off in the train yard, next to a lever. If you pull this lever, the trolley will switch to a different set of tracks. However, you notice that there is one person on the side track. You have two options: (1) Do nothing, and the trolley kills the five people on the main track. (2) Pull the lever, diverting the trolley onto the side track where it will kill one person. Which is the correct choice?

Trolley? This question's been around a while, eh?

Is the lone person tied up, too, or can he/she jump out of the way?

What would Captain Kirk do?

 

[Nic]

Trolley? This question's been around a while, eh?

Is the lone person tied up, too, or can he/she jump out of the way?

What would Captain Kirk do?

Oh Kirk would somehow save everyone and also end up hooking up with the pretty ladies he saved I would think.

I think the idea is that the lone person is also tied up; and yes, it's a very old question. I copy and pasted it from Wikipedia to get it exactly correct as it was written. I think I heard it as train instead of trolley the first time I encountered it.

The whole purpose of it is to demonstrate that by not acting you also make a choice, so acting and throwing the lever, while directly making you the person who pointed the train at the lone person is the better choice since only 1 person dies instead of 5 (at least that's my interpretation of it). Had you not thrown the lever, you're directly responsible for 4 deaths that didn't have to happen.

The question gets modified by throwing loved ones into the group too. something like 1000 people tied up that way, or you can point the train toward your loved one who is alone on the other track. Or flip it and the loved one is where it's currently pointed, and you can repoint it at the 1000 people.

It's all so abstract, but it's interesting now because the people who have to program the driverless cars need to tell the car what to do in those kind of situations... If the car is barreling toward a crowd of people and can only avoid it by driving you off a cliff, which way is it going go?