A Parent's joy versus animal's torment.

[hoichi]

Parents should learn sign. That's what you should be pushing for instead of against CI. Push for learning ASL. Be pro Deaf culture in a way that doesn't alienate an ever growing population of people. Pushing for ASL takes a positive approach and there are strong pro-ASL arguments that you can make than anti-CI arguments.

I think Deaf culture and ASL should stick around. I think it's unfair to put the communication burden on the Deaf/hoh person only. But in the real world most people hear. English is the national language. And there are plenty of jobs that simply require communicating orally in English.

The simple fact is an oral Deaf has more opportunity than a non-oral. It's not fair, its not right, but it is reality. Minorities always have to compromise to have the same opportunity as the majority. It's an unfortunate part of the world we live in.

Im going to ask you again, ive asked a few questions,
Why is using technology to assimilate us lauded and worthy, and why didnt we use technology to assimilate blacks?
We are a minority, they are a minority. We are a linguistic minority, they are a racial minority. We face discrimination every damn day by the majority culture, (hearie), they face discrimination every damn day from the racial majority. (White)
Discriminwtion is the issue.
So why for us is it technological assimiliation by the means of a technology of normalization, ci. But for them discrimination is adressed via the law,
If a pill existed to make them white and was cheap, should it be used? It adresses the plm of discrimination the exact same way ci does.
Ill wait.

 

[Nic]

Yes they should and so should implanted Deaf babies and children. Now go tell that to the professionals in the ci idustry . Thank you

Screw the "professionals", be vocal enough and parents will hear. There are plenty who already go this route, learn ASL with their deaf baby, even though they also have a CI.

To be clear. Im not against ci. Im against implanting babies and children. Adults can do what ever the hell want to with themeselves. Ive been clear regarding this plenty on here. The above is a philosophical postion. Im not an authoeitarian thus i wont dictate to adults what they should do. I take the same postition with drugs.

I get that, but early implantation leads to more opportunity than later in life implantation. Especially for profoundly deaf at birth.

Who are you refering? Who is alienated by what arguments?

Parents of deaf babies who decide to implant are alienated by the Deaf community because they feel attacked, accused, alienated. Those feelings definitely wouldn't help them make a decision to teach their child ASL and learn themselves too.

They feel like outsiders. Sometimes adults with implants do too. There are plenty of examples in these forums of folks who felt/feel alienated by the Deaf community, be they HOH, late deafened, with CI, or what have you.

We can communicate and have without speaking. We know english. You ae dronning on here about speaking...its not a new argument. We have faced and felt the effects of oralism for a rather long time.

I'm going to pick on you ever so slightly here, and I promise to not do it again. Yes, most Deaf know English. Some use it extremely well, but others don't. Their writing quality isn't on par with what's required in a professional environment, so it reduces choices.

It also can make people believe someone is less intelligent than they are. Some people judge others based on their mastery of written English. It's extremely common online and in professional environments. If I sent an email to my professional peers written as your post is, they'd think lesser of me or maybe at best ignore it. And I work in an industry where ESL is fairly common and you encounter poor English mastery fairly frequently.

ESL folks who haven't mastered English have a harder time in English dominant cultures than people who have a strong mastery of the language. Just like folks learning ASL have a harder time in the Deaf community than people who were raised with ASL as a primary language. Communication difficulties are frustrating, that's part of it. But sometimes people just dismiss other people when they don't have a strong mastery of their chosen language.

Thats a nice argument for the justification of discrimination. I grant you that

There is no justification for discrimination. Discrimination in any form is bull****. I can't fix the world though, I can only control what I do. I'm a realist, I try to see the world for what it is, then operate within that construct as best I can. The real fact is that discrimination happens. Sometimes it's legal, sometimes it's not. Learning to live within the current construct and bend it to your will is a lot more productive than trying to push against it forever.

 

[Nic]

Im going to ask you again, ive asked a few questions,
Why is using technology to assimilate us lauded and worthy, and why didnt we use technology to assimilate blacks?
We are a minority, they are a minority. We are a linguistic minority, they are a racial minority. We face discrimination every damn day by the majority culture, (hearie), they face discrimination every damn day from the racial majority. (White)
Discriminwtion is the issue.
So why for us is it technological assimiliation by the means of a technology of normalization, ci. But for them discrimination is adressed via the law,
If a pill existed to make them white and was cheap, should it be used? It adresses the plm of discrimination the exact same way ci does.
Ill wait.

We assimilates blacks in a different way. There is certainly black culture, but we push blacks to assimilate into mainstream white culture. We do this with foreigners too. The ones who do, succeed fairly frequently. But you don't see professional blacks speaking in black culture slang, dressing hip hop style, etc. Skin color doesn't prevent them from entry into that culture, it's more superficial than that.

The ability to hear does prevent entry into mainstream hearing culture to some degree, because oral language is how mainstream culture communicates. There is a technology solution to the problem so mainstream culture feels it's a good solution. There are alternate solutions, and they can work. But it seems that folks who get early implanted with CI and learn to orally communicate have a greater rate of success in mainstream culture. (I really don't have stats for this though, and would love to see them if they exist).

Yes Deaf are a linguistic minority, so are Spanish speakers in the US. Spanish speakers face a similar type of discrimination that ASL speakers do, any ESL folks do. There are additional types of discrimination on both sides, and one is more "fair" than the other. Deaf can't learn to hear, Spanish speakers can learn to speak English. Spanish from Mexico face racial discrimination in addition to language mastery.

That's why the ADA exists. It's there to protect Deaf from the sort of discrimination you're talking about. Fight the discrimination, though. Fight for Deaf culture's survival.

Fighting against a medical procedure with a low risk and high success rate isn't going to win people over.

 

[hoichi]

[

Screw the "professionals", be vocal enough and parents will hear. There are plenty who already go this route, learn ASL with their deaf baby, even though they also have a CI.

Sure. But again your ignoring very real power relations and socially conditioned free will, and choice. The majoirty of people will follow theie docs advice, and are easy prey to the dazzle of deep pocket marketing. Advertising and marketing is a huge bussiness, ci companies pay good money for the sevice. You claim your a realist. Then surely your aware how easy two scared parents with a new deaf baby would be to snag,

SI get that, but early implantation leads to more opportunity than later in life implantation. Especially for profoundly deaf at birth.

This is an oft droned aduist and oralist argument. But i ask again how much better do implanted kids actually do, compared to Deaf kids who sign and are given the propwe support? I havnt in my life, ive bewn deaf for decades seen the maricle cure ci story face to face, besides on oralist websights, and other trash places. There was the brit from oxford who was touted as the maricle story for ci, but it ignored the veey real class she csme from, the support she had, tuturs, so on so forth,
How well do implamted kids actually d, compared to Deaf kids who sign and are given the proper support?

Parents of deaf babies who decide to implant are alienated by the Deaf community because they feel attacked, accused, alienated. Those feelings definitely wouldn't help them make a decision to teach their child ASL and learn themselves too.
Thats true and is changing. Its also inderstandible. You need to know oir history in order to understand our strong response.

They feel like outsiders. Sometimes adults with implants do too. There are plenty of examples in these forums of folks who felt/feel alienated by the Deaf community, be they HOH, late deafened, with CI, or what have you.

It has changed greatly. And still is changing.
But indeed it still exists..

I'm going to pick on you ever so slightly here, and I promise to not do it again. Yes, most Deaf know English. Some use it extremely well, but others don't. Their writing quality isn't on par with what's required in a professional environment, so it reduces choices.


It also can make people believe someone is less intelligent than they are. Some people judge others based on their mastery of written English. It's extremely common online and in professional environments. If I sent an email to my professional peers written as your post is, they'd think lesser of me or maybe at best ignore it. And I work in an industry where ESL is fairly common and you encounter poor English mastery fairly frequently.

ESL folks who haven't mastered English have a harder time in English dominant cultures than people who have a strong mastery of the language. Just like folks learning ASL have a harder time in the Deaf community than people who were raised with ASL as a primary language. Communication difficulties are frustrating, that's part of it. But sometimes people just dismiss other people when they don't have a strong mastery of their chosen language.

Feel free to pick on me, i have tough skin man..this doesnt phase me.
Now.its a plm of the education re english, in Deafie schools. Another thing and a very important thing to keep in mind, is exactly what is going on here?
English is an aural language, Deaf cannot percieve, (i went Deaf at 9), thus my english is as it is. Born Deaf are taught a language they cant percieve, to read and write english. Im curious how well a hearie would do if they where bkind and forced to learn asl?

There is no justification for discrimination. Discrimination in any form is bull****. I can't fix the world though, I can only control what I do. I'm a realist, I try to see the world for what it is, then operate within that construct as best I can. The real fact is that discrimination happens. Sometimes it's legal, sometimes it's not. Learning to live within the current construct and bend it to your will is a lot more productive than trying to push against it forever.

Push against what though?
Why is there this march to assimilate us? To snatch our babies?, to deny them sign?
We push against the above, for a good reason
Sign solves the plm of communication. Its not a billion dollor industry, we have no jugernaught, we are rather ill equiped to handle what is happining.
So must now have been bullied and berrated into silience and submision.
Few can take the abuse and the preasure form audist and those adherents of ci that are brought to bare on them. To shut them up
Im an exeption here.
I wont go meakly into the night. I wont shut up and be assimilate.

 

[Nic]

Sure. But again your ignoring very real power relations and socially conditioned free will, and choice. The majoirty of people will follow theie docs advice, and are easy prey to the dazzle of deep pocket marketing. Advertising and marketing is a huge bussiness, ci companies pay good money for the sevice. You claim your a realist. Then surely your aware how easy two scared parents with a new deaf baby would be to snag

What other option is there? what would you propose? Pushing against a medical procedure isn't going to get you anywhere unless there's a safety or quality of life reason to not get it and you're a medical professional or researcher of some sort with some clout.

This is an oft deoned aduist and oralist argument. But i ask again how much better do implanted kids actually do, compared to Deaf kids who sign and are given the propwe support? I havnt in my life, ive bewn deaf for decades seen the maricle cure ci story face to face, besides on oralist websights, and other trash places. There was the brit from oxford who was touted as the maricle story for ci, but it ignored the veey real class she csme from, the support she had, tuturs, so on so forth,
How well do implamted kids actually d, compared to Deaf kids who sign and are given the proper support?

I don' tknow, these are the stats I'd love to see. Knowing the stats on it would let us argue strongly one way or another. If the stats say oral kids do worse and are less happy than non-oral, I'd be convinced pretty quickly that oral isn't the way to go.

A typical measure of success is in career advancement and net-worth type stats. It seems there are more visible oral Deaf with high profile jobs than non-oral. But it's just my observation and not a well grounded stat. I want the stats.

Thats true and is changing. Its also inderstandible. You need to know oir history in order to understand our strong response.

I know some of the history and I'm learning more every day. I do understand some of the response, but history alone isn't reason to keep doing something the same way. Right now I can observe success and failure in different arguments. I've read about hearing parents of deaf babies who go both ways, the reasons they make their choices, and what arguments seem to work to sway them toward ASL.

Feel free to pick on me, i have tough skin man..this doesnt phase me.
Now.its a plm of the education re english, in Deafie schools. Another thing and a very important thing to keep in mind, is exactly what is going on here?
English is an aural language, Deaf cannot percieve, (i went Deaf at 9), thus my english is as it is. Born Deaf are taught a language they cant percieve, to read and write english. Im curious how well a hearie would do if they where bkind and forced to learn asl?

I'm not one to pick on people, I like people, I think most people are worth getting to know and I don't like to reduce my chances of getting to know people better. I also understand that many Deaf (or ESL folks in general) don't write as well as native English because there are some real difficulties there, and that's why I typically never comment about writing style anywhere. I get it, but a lot of people don't.

You make a solid point. Born Deaf are taught a language they can't perceive. I can barely imagine what it would be like to learn English with sounding out words and using the other oral devices I was taught to learn as a kid. It'd be a totally different experience, a really difficult one. CI changes that though. It gives born Deaf kids a chance to learn English like a hearing kid (to some degree). It typically helps.

It's that fact that convinced me that early implantation isn't such a bad thing and does a lot more good than harm. BUT I still strongly feel born deaf should learn ASL and so should the parents and immediate family. And they should get involved with the Deaf community, and the deaf community should welcome them, regardless of early implantation.

Push against what though?
Why is there this march to assimilate us? To snatch our babies?, to deny them sign?
We push against the above, for a good reason
Sign solves the plm of communication. Its not a billion dollor industry, we have no jugernaught, we are rather ill equiped to handle what is happining.
So must now have been bullied and berrated into silience and submision.
Few can take the abuse and the preasure form audist and those adherents of ci that are brought to bare on them. To shut them up
Im an exeption here.
I wont go meakly into the night. I wont shut up and be assimilate.

There's isn't exactly a march against the Deaf community or an initiative to snatch the babies and deny them sign. CI implantation does not deny anyone sign.

Taking a stance against CI doesn't gain allies though. It alienates people, and alienating people, mainstream, hoh, hearies, CI implants, doctors, whoever, isn't going to help Deaf culture persist. Allies help. hearing allies, hoh allies, implanted allies, anyone who wants to learn ASL. The more people who learn ASL, even if only superficially, the more aware everyone else will be about ASL and the easier it'll be to convince parents of deaf babies to have their kid learn ASL and be a part of Deaf culture.

Look at the gay rights movement. They made allies. Lots of allies. It's why there's a national marriage equality law now. Those allies changed mainstream culture and a minority became accepted and part of the mainstream while retaining their seperate culture.

 

[Reba]

Oh Kirk would somehow save everyone and also end up hooking up with the pretty ladies he saved I would think.

I think the idea is that the lone person is also tied up; and yes, it's a very old question. I copy and pasted it from Wikipedia to get it exactly correct as it was written. I think I heard it as train instead of trolley the first time I encountered it.

The whole purpose of it is to demonstrate that by not acting you also make a choice, so acting and throwing the lever, while directly making you the person who pointed the train at the lone person is the better choice since only 1 person dies instead of 5 (at least that's my interpretation of it). Had you not thrown the lever, you're directly responsible for 4 deaths that didn't have to happen.

The question gets modified by throwing loved ones into the group too. something like 1000 people tied up that way, or you can point the train toward your loved one who is alone on the other track. Or flip it and the loved one is where it's currently pointed, and you can repoint it at the 1000 people.

Yes, dealing with known individuals rather than strangers as victims adds a very important and difficult element to the decision.

It's all so abstract, but it's interesting now because the people who have to program the driverless cars need to tell the car what to do in those kind of situations... If the car is barreling toward a crowd of people and can only avoid it by driving you off a cliff, which way is it going go?

I'm probably over-thinking an abstract question but . . .

Why is the driverless car barreling toward a crowd of persons? It sounds like the computer controlling the car has malfunctioned. Would the decision-making program even work in a computer that has lost control of the car?

Is there a manual override function in the vehicle?

Why is a crowd of people standing near the edge of a cliff?

 

[hoichi]

Lights fat joint........

 

[hoichi]

[

We assimilates blacks in a different way. There is certainly black culture, but we push blacks to assimilate into mainstream white culture. We do this with foreigners too. The ones who do, succeed fairly frequently. But you don't see professional blacks speaking in black culture slang, dressing hip hop style, etc. Skin color doesn't preven them from entry into that culture, it's more superficial than that.
r.

But if there was a technology to assimilate them, their babies, against their communities wishes, would.it, and should it be used?

The ability to hear does prevent entry into mainstream hearing culture to some degree, because oral language is how mainstream culture communicates. There is a technology solution to the problem so mainstream culture feels it's a good solution. There are alternate solutions, and they can work. But it seems that folks who get early implanted with CI and learn to orally communicate have a greater rate of success in mainstream culture. (I really don't have stats for this though, and would love to see them if they exist).r.

You assume this. You admit to not having any stats. You assumw this. And i qk why? Why assume? Really. By what measure is sucess gaged?

Yes Deaf are a linguistic minority, so are Spanish speakers in the US. Spanish speakers face a similar type of discrimination that ASL speakers do, any ESL folks do. There are additional types of discrimination on both sides, and one is more "fair" than the other. Deaf can't learn to hear, Spanish speakers can learn to speak English. Spanish from Mexico face racial discrimination in addition to language mastery.

That's why the ADA exists. It's there to protect Deaf from the sort of discrimination you're talking about. Fight the discrimination, though. Fight for Deaf culture's survival.

Fighting against a medical procedure with a low risk and high success rate isn't going to win people over.

What measure is this high sucsess rate gaged?
The first babies were implanted in the early 90s
So where are you getting your assumptions?
It seems to me its more ideological driven or wishfull thinking then anything else.


Our culture is doomed man. In hundred years i doubt any Deaf will still be signing. Between the drills, and the genetic push to erase people like us from this world. Its not looking good. Given how much hearie and hearie wannabes gloat about it. Its rather grim. Having stated that. Im not going to shut up, im going to call this tragedy this cultural genocide, this cultural assimilation out Every damn chance i get. If that happens to annoy those who have been drilled into and hqve computers in the skull..wo be it..they can shove it where my signs dont shine for all care..This world will be less bright with the loss of our language, our stories, our poems, our very soul. And ever one of our babies they drill into wnd deny sign to, is wnother one of our future leaders, future poets, future story tellers lost..and its having an accumalitive effect of my culture. .We are not the first people to face it. But that doesnt mean we should lay down in hallow joy accepting and even wishing for it.

 

[Nic]

But if there was a technology to assimilate them, theie babies, against their communities wishes, would.it, and should it be used?

I can't imagine what sort of technology that'd be since Black culture isn't about a physical aspect and is instead just a superficial set of cultural norms.

You assume this. You admit to not having any stats. You assumw this. And i qk why? Why assume? Really. By what measure is sucess gaged?

It's based on my observations. I haven't yet found a research study to give me hard stats. I measure success in both wealth and happiness. Wealth is a lot easier to measure though.

What measure is this high sucsess rate gaged?
The first babies were implanted in the early 90s
So where are you getting your assumptions?
It seems to me its more ideological driven or wishfull thinking then anything else.

Early 90s are millenials who are just entering the work force now. There are examples of such people on these forums. Some who have very hearing culture ties who are pursuing careers in top tier type fields.

Our culture is doomed man. In hundred years i doubt any Deaf will still be signing. Between the drills, and the genetic push to erase people like us from this world. Its not looking good. Given how much hearie and hearie wannabes gloat about it. Its rather grim. Having stated that. Im not going to shut up, im going to call this tragedy this cultural genocide, this cultural assimilation out Every damn chance i get. If that happens to ase whnnoy thoo have been drilled into and hqve computers in the skull..wo be it..they can shove it where my signs dont shine for all care..This world will be less bright with the loss of our language, our stories, our poems, our very soul. And ever one of our babies they drill into wnd deny sign to, is wnother one of our future leaders, future poets, future story tellers lost..and its having an accumalitive effect of my culture. .We are not the first people to face it. But that doesnt mean we should lay down in hallow joy accepting and even wishing for it.

If you already believe the culture is doomed, then what's the point in arguing to save it? I think the culture is far from doomed. There are Deaf who are fighting differently for the preservation of the culture. Will it change? It already has. CI has become a lot more accepted among adults at the very least, it'll continue to change too.

I wouldn't want you to shut up. I think Deaf culture is something worth protecting. I think it's worth keeping ASL strong, making it even stronger, making people more aware. There are people out there doing that. I don't think Deaf culture is doomed. If I did, I wouldn't be here, I wouldn't bother learning ASL, I would look for other solutions to my hearing loss, I wouldn't be debating. But ASL and CI pair well. When the batteries run out, you still have ASL. When you want to talk to someone who wasn't CI compatible, you have ASL. When you wake up the morning and you forgot where you put your processor, you still have ASL.

I'm just saying, your approach might do more harm than good. You might turn people away from Deaf culture who could end up being huge allies and elevate Deaf culture within mainstream culture and ensure the persistence of Deaf culture for many many years to come. The more allies you can bring to the side of Deaf culture the better. Arguing about, or complaining about, or pushing against a medical procedure that isn't the core of the problem won't help.

ASL is key, people need to learn ASL, Deaf babies need parents who learn ASL. You say it all the time, ASL will set you free. It's true. ASL is what binds the Deaf community. It's why there is a Deaf community. More people need to learn ASL, ASL needs to be the focus.

Teach Deaf babies ASL, implant them too, that's ok, but teach them ASL.

 

[Nic]

I'm probably over-thinking an abstract question but . . .

Why is the driverless car barreling toward a crowd of persons? It sounds like the computer controlling the car has malfunctioned. Would the decision-making program even work in a computer that has lost control of the car?

Is there a manual override function in the vehicle?

Why is a crowd of people standing near the edge of a cliff?

It just came around a blind curve on a mountain pass going the speed limit (50 mph) and it turns out there's a large gathering of people in the road because there was an accident. The car knows it can't stop in time (it did the math) and the only way to avoid the collision is veering off the cliff (it's a mountain highway).

Or maybe it was fog instead of a blind curve, or any other scenario where a normal driver would have to make one of those split second decisions.

There's a bunch of other scenarios that are a bit more realistic but equally scary. Any of those scenarios where something unexpected happens and you have a split second to make a decision can and should be programmed with a response. Computers process that stuff faster than we do, so there can be a set decision and it'll perform exactly as it's supposed to even with such a short time.

Other people have proposed other frightening questions about it. Should the programmer value the drivers life more highly than property value when considering what to hit if it has to hit something? Who is programming these vehicles and how are these decisions being made?

Personally, I'm not worried about it. I'm excited that we're going to have driverless cars. It'll save more lives than it'll cost. It's just really interesting stuff to think about. I'm also exceedingly glad I don't have to make those decisions :-P

 

[hoichi]

What other option is there? what would you propose? re.

I propose Deaf babies are taught and learn
sign and be a part of Deaf culture. Sign addresses the plm of communication all it takes is to be learned, granted i know i know, the drill is the easier bargain these days.

Pushing against a medical procedure isn't going to get you anywhere unless there's a safety or quality of life reason to not get it and you're a medical professional or researcher of some sort with some clout. re.

Interesting you brought this up. As the first babies were inplanted in france before the states against medical advice. Against the advice of the leading surgon of the country who was horrified at what occured. Ci is ideologicly driven man. Face it.
The above is discussed in one of the books i recomended you.
So obviously if the leading surgion of an advanced first world country was ignored, its a safe bet Deaf like me will be too, no matter what we argue or sign.

I don' tknow, these are the stats I'd love to see. Knowing the stats on it would let us argue strongly one way or another. If the stats say oral kids do worse and are less happy than non-oral, I'd be convinced pretty quickly that oral isn't the way to go.re.

If you dont know, then why are you so adamant in the assunption?

A typical measure of success is in career advancement and net-worth type stats. It seems there are more visible oral Deaf with high profile jobs than non-oral. But it's just my observation and not a well grounded stat. I want the stats.re.

Right , and thats just a plm of discrimination, how many blakcs were in hgh peofile jobs co,pared to whites decades ago? How about now? Whites are atill the majority

I know some of the history and I'm learning more every day. I do understand some of the response, but history alone isn't reason to keep doing something the same way. Right now I can observe success and failure in different arguments. I've read about hearing parents of deaf babies who go both ways, the reasons they make their choices, and what arguments seem to work to sway them toward ASL.re.

Yes some go.both ways. Against the advice of the majority in the indusry

I'm not one to pick on people, I like people, I think most people are worth getting to know and I don't like to reduce my chances of getting to know people better. I also understand that many Deaf (or ESL folks in general) don't write as well as native English because there are some real difficulties there, and that's why I typically never comment about writing style anywhere. I get it, but a lot of people don't.

re.

Thats cool..i aprreciate that..

I'You make a solid point. Born Deaf are taught a language they can't perceive. I can barely imagine what it would be like to learn English with sounding out words and using the other oral devices I was taught to learn as a kid. It'd be a totally different experience, a really difficult one. CI changes that though. It gives born Deaf kids a chance to learn English like a hearing kid (to some degree). It typically helps.


re.

Right. Its a technology of normalization. Its about assimiation. Peiod. Success is measured by how well your lips flap...alright...

It's that fact that convinced me that early implantation isn't such a bad thing and does a lot more good than harm. BUT I still strongly feel born deaf should learn ASL and so should the parents and immediate family. And they should get involved with the Deaf community, and the deaf community should welcome them, regardless of early implantation.
re.

Fact? What fact?

There's isn't exactly a march against the Deaf community or an initiative to snatch the babies and deny them sign. CI implantation does not deny anyone sign.

re.

Last year an industry journal published one article, about. Teaching sign to implanted babies as a way forward. The reason why this one article stirred such discusion is because it is NOT the industry standard. The fact is as of right now the majority of professional in the industry view sign as a negative.
Feel free to belive anything you want. I know a.few whites who drone on about racism not existing eaither i cant convince them. You need to see though the hype

Taking a stance against CI doesn't gain allies though. It alienates people, and alienating people, mainstream, hoh, hearies, CI implants, doctors, whoever, isn't going to help Deaf culture persist. Allies help. hearing allies, hoh allies, implanted allies, anyone who wants to learn ASL. The more people who learn ASL, even if only superficially, the more aware everyone else will be about ASL and the easier it'll be to convince parents of deaf babies to have their kid learn ASL and be a part of Deaf culture.
re.

People are aliented both ways. Forcing implant alienates people, banning sign aliwntes people.
They dont seem to mind
Indeed the more people who learn asl the better. But real fluency for most not all for most is aquired as a baby and child. You fail to see how the policy of ci professionals has attacked and degraded our very ability to produce deeply fluent leaders and story tellers. As the baby will first be assimilates all others be damned to be the best little hearie child technology can create. sign becomes second, a helper...an add on...

Look at the gay rights movement. They made allies. Lots of allies. It's why there's a national marriage equality law now. Those allies changed mainstream culture and a minority became accepted and part of the mainstream while retaining their seperate culture.

They also alenated a ton of pople too. Thwy got where they are by knowing how to play the system and being able to create a voting block and have loot. Allot of loot.

 

[hoichi]

[

I can't imagine what sort of technology that'd be since Black culture isn't about a physical aspect and is instead just a superficial set of cultural norms.
L.

The basis of the discriminatiin against blacks is skin color. So technology, or medication designed to turn them whiter then whitie. Perhaps a pigment changing organism, or gene therapy. Ect
Discrimination is adressed via technology, the very same way it is adressed via ci
Shoud it be used?

It's based on my observations. I haven't yet found a research study to give me hard stats. I measure success in both wealth and happiness. Wealth is a lot easier to measure though.L.

Alright...so you are stating you have personally seen or known fully assimilated implantees with loot and a good job?
Im sure they are out there.but thats not the vast majority of those implanted. And were those people born Deaf or late deafened hearie?

IEarly 90s are millenials who are just entering the work force now. There are examples of such people on these forums. Some who have very hearing culture ties who are pursuing careers in top tier type fields. L.

Right. So since the first babies where implanted in the early 90s, we cant have much stats regarding the high succsess rate or high end jobs and loot they have so far aquired due to suposesly ci
Right?
Then you really dont have much to base youe assumptions on.

If you already believe the culture is doomed, then what's the point in arguing to save it? I think the culture is far from doomed. There are Deaf who are fighting differently for the preservation of the culture. Will it change? It already has. CI has become a lot more accepted among adults at the very least, it'll continue to change too. L.

My point is i guess not so much to save my doomed culture then to make sure we wont face our end quit little Deafies, w novelty in a museum..
Yeah the writtings on the wall. So ill be as loud as can, they can gloat all they want...and i wont shup..
Sucks
But call it our swan song if you like

I wouldn't want you to shut up. I think Deaf culture is something worth protecting. I think it's worth keeping ASL strong, making it even stronger, making people more aware. There are people out there doing that. I don't think Deaf culture is doomed. If I did, I wouldn't be here, I wouldn't bother learning ASL, I would look for other solutions to my hearing loss, I wouldn't be debating. But ASL and CI pair well. When the batteries run out, you still have ASL. When you want to talk to someone who wasn't CI compatible, you have ASL. When you wake up the morning and you forgot where you put your processor, you still have ASL.L.

Yes its worth keeping. And
Its worth saving. But the reality is against us. And thats one side of this. Clearly given the deep pockets and ideologicly driven ci industry..we dont stand a chance man. Most of us are working poor and poor.
Not share holders in a billion dollor industry
Indeed sign is the superior technology. It can be used in more enviroments, doesnt require batteries, a drilled hole in your head, we can live and experience life fully no wires attached.
True
But history is littered with superior technologies overtaken by inferior ones, history is littered with the death of plenty of minority cutures doomed.
We are no exception

I'm just saying, your approach might do more harm than good. You might turn people away from Deaf culture who could end up being huge allies and elevate Deaf culture within mainstream culture and ensure the persistence of Deaf culture for many many years to come. The more allies you can bring to the side of Deaf culture the better. Arguing about, or complaining about, or pushing against a medical procedure that isn't the core of the problem won't help.L.

I may turn people away, i may get people involved. Its my approach, others hwve theirs. Im not too worried about what those who get inplanted and dont sign think
I dont fear monger.
My aproach is sharing my opinion on here for what its worth.
Others share theirs

ASL is key, people need to learn ASL, Deaf babies need parents who learn ASL. You say it all the time, ASL will set you free. It's true. ASL is what binds the Deaf community. It's why there is a Deaf community. More people need to learn ASL, ASL needs to be the focus.

Teach Deaf babies ASL, implant them too, that's ok, but teach them ASL.

Im well aware of this. It also stands without implanting..
So

 

[Nic]

The recurring theme seems to be related to CI professional discouraging parents from teaching ASL to babies. This is exclusive from the CI itself. CI and ASL can exist at the same time. So your argument is about persuading the Medical and CI community to encourage deaf born to learn ASL in addition to whatever else they want to suggest. The actual CI implantation is a separate thing.

There is plenty of strong evidence that a bilingual upbringing can work. My mom was bilingual early in life. She learned German first, my grandparents were native Germans, but she learned English too, and my grandparents learned English sometime after they immigrated. My mom speaks both fluently (though she has an American accent).

I learned some German along side English growing up. Bilingual is easy for kids. It's just natural. Learning the differences and when to use each language is a challenge, but it's something that happens naturally. Later mastery of either language becomes easier because you have the childhood foundation. Your brain is wired for both.

Yes learning ASL early in life is easier. Learning any language earlier in life is easier, and a lot of research suggests learning multiple languages early in life helps your brain assimilate language later in life more easily too.

Bilingual is a great option. A really great option. It gives a chance of entry into both cultures. It truly gives the child the ability to decide which culture they want to be a part of instead of the parent choosing for them. Bilingual is what I'd advocate for. Let the kids truly choose.

The fact I was referring to was the fact that learning language early is easier than later. It is a fact that learning ASL early is easier than later. It is also a fact that learning English early is easier than later. It's also a fact that learning English with some ability to hear (via CI) is easier than learning with no ability to hear.

Then the reason I believe the chances for success are higher is because native English or those with English mastery have a higher chance of success in the US regardless of anything else. That is a fact.

 

[Nic]

The basis of the discriminatiin against blacks is skin color. So technology, or medication designed to turn them whiter then whitie. Perhaps a pigment changing organism, or gene therapy. Ect
Discrimination is adressed via technology, the very same way it is adressed via ci
Shoud it be used?

The basis of discrimination against blacks is twofold. Originally it may have just been skin color, but more people are accepting of blacks who meld with mainstream culture now than blacks who identify strongly with Black American culture (hip-hop culture). Put a black guy in a suit next to a black guy dressed in inner-city urban attire and put them into various situations and you'll see how dress appearance plays a huge role. Yes the black guy in the suit will run into some problems too, but not nearly as many as the black guy dressed in inner-city urban attire.

Alright...so you are stating you have personally seen or known fully assimilated implantees with loot and a good job?
Im sure they are out there.but thats not the vast majority of those implanted. And were those people born Deaf or late deafened hearie?

The ones I know of personally were both born deaf with implants and late-deafened. But I work in the tech industry and higher ed so I do admit I encounter people who are well off more so than those who are not. My perspective on that could be eschewed. I have not encountered born Deaf in tech who aren't implanted. In higher ed I have, but they were non-tech and they teach ASL courses, very niche, not mainstream.

Right. So since the first babies where implanted in the early 90s, we cant have much stats regarding the high succsess rate or high end jobs and loot they have so far aquired due to suposesly ci
Right?
Then you really dont have much to base youe assumptions on.

We don't actually need the stats afterall. We know that English mastery increases career prospects, and we know that CI helps kids learn English. Like you said, learning English without being able to perceive it is damned hard.

My point is i guess not so much to save my doomed culture then to make sure we wont face our end quit little Deafies, w novelty in a museum..
Yeah the writtings on the wall. So ill be as loud as can, they can gloat all they want...and i wont shup..
Sucks
But call it our swan song if you like

It doesn't have to be that way. Not this day in age.

Yes its worth keeping. And
Its worth saving. But the reality is against us. And thats one side of this. Clearly given the deep pockets and ideologicly driven ci industry..we dont stand a chance man. Most of us are working poor and poor.
Not share holders in a billion dollor industry
Indeed sign is the superior technology. It can be used in more enviroments, doesnt require batteries, a drilled hole in your head, we can live and experience life fully no wires attached.
True
But history is littered with superior technologies overtaken by inferior ones, history is littered with the death of plenty of minority cutures doomed.
We are no exception

Fighting against any deep pocketed industry is a terrible fight to pursue if you're trying to lessen their ability to make money. Fighting against CI lessens that, they maybe they fight back? Maybe there really is a movement to assimilate. But why fight against CI? Fight for ASL. That doesn't take away their profit and it's a compromise solution for hearing vs Deaf culture. It also gives kids a real choice instead of parents choosing one way or the other.

I may turn people away, i may get people involved. Its my approach, others hwve theirs. Im not too worried about what those who get inplanted and dont sign think
I dont fear monger.
My aproach is sharing my opinion on here for what its worth.
Others share theirs

Im well aware of this. It also stands without implanting..
So

You should be advocating that they do sign though, you need more signers. More ASL. Strengthen the language, strengthen the culture, increase the numbers.

 

[hoichi]

[

The recurring theme seems to be related to CI professional discouraging parents from teaching ASL to babies.ct.

Right. And they do this for a reason. The reason needs to challanged. The plm is by doing so it addresses the very reasoning behind ci.

This is exclusive from the CI itself. CI and ASL can exist at the same time. So your argument is about persuading the Medical and CI community to encourage deaf born to learn ASL in addition to whatever else they want to suggest. The actual CI implantation is a separate thing.ct.

They are seperate but also tied at the hip. You need to ask yourself why we even newd to pursuade them? Why do they insist sign is a negative? And.influence parents to not sign lest the baby revert to being Deaf

There is plenty of strong evidence that a bilingual upbringing can work. My mom was bilingual early in life. She learned German first, my grandparents were native Germans, but she learned English too, and my grandparents learned English sometime after they immigrated. My mom speaks both fluently (though she has an American accent). ct.

Thats never been the issue. Im bilingual. The first language i lesrned as a baby and toddler was italian, though im half scot. No engkish was spoken in my fathers home, and thats where i was at that time. Ive never been against bilingualism. Im good with languages. Thats never been the issue.

I learned some German along side English growing up. Bilingual is easy for kids. It's just natural. Learning the differences and when to use each language is a challenge, but it's something that happens naturally. Later mastery of either language becomes easier because you have the childhood foundation. Your brain is wired for bothct.

Yes of course

Yes learning ASL early in life is easier. Learning any language earlier in life is easier, and a lot of research suggests learning multiple languages early in life helps your brain assimilate language later in life more easily too. ct.

Indeed

Bilingual is a great option. A really great option. It gives a chance of entry into both cultures. It truly gives the child the ability to decide which culture they want to be a part of instead of the parent choosing for them. Bilingual is what I'd advocate for. Let the kids truly choose.ct.

No argument here

The fact I was referring to was the fact that learning language early is easier than later. It is a fact that learning ASL early is easier than later. It is also a fact that learning English early is easier than later. It's also a fact that learning English with some ability to hear (via CI) is easier than learning with no ability to hear.
ct.

Well ive never denied this. So i dont see what the issue is. The plm in regards to ci and making Deaf hearie or as close as.thebtechnokogy can and oralism is obviously the very inante hostility to sign oralism avows

Then the reason I believe the chances for success are higher is because native English or those with English mastery have a higher chance of success in the US regardless of anything else. That is a fact.

But thats not what you stated..not what i read. You didnt state bikingualism hqs w higher succsess rate, or what ever, and thats why i kept asking you how you are gaging succsess. In the ci feild obviously how well you flap your beak like a parrot. And i wont argue there. Its a framed pidgonholed measure. But how much better do implanted kids actually do compared with Deaf kids who sign and are given the proper support?

 

[Nic]

We basically agree on the stuff above this one so I reduced it.

But thats not what you stated..not what i read. You didnt state bikingualism hqs w higher succsess rate, or what ever, and thats why i kept asking you how you are gaging succsess. In the ci feild obviously how well you flap your beak like a parrot. And i wont argue there. Its a framed pidgonholed measure. But how much better do implanted kids actually do compared with Deaf kids who sign and are given the proper support?

You said yourself that it's hard to learn English without ever being able to perceive it. CI lets profound deaf born hear to some degree and getting CI early makes it easier for the brain to adapt. Is there more needed than this?

I answered that I gauge success by career success (financial success) and by happiness. With net-worth and income type stats being easier to gauge. People who have high-tier jobs are assumed to be more successful than people who flip burgers.

The happiness factor is so dependent on other things that it's hard to use as a measure, but I can't imagine being happier having a hard time making ends meet than having a stable career that lets the bills be paid without much worry.

So if English proficiency leads to better career options (we agree this is the case in the US and CA right?). And better Career options mean a better chance of making more money (having a better career). And being able to hear to some degree makes learning English easier (you said this yourself). Then we have to admit then that CI can lead to more options and a higher chance of financial and career success.

Then ASL fits perfectly into this picture because with or without a CI you're still Deaf. So forget about CI and fight for ASL.

 

[hoichi]

[

The basis of discrimination against blacks is twofold. Originally it may have just been skin color, but more people are accepting of blacks who meld with mainstream culture now than blacks who identify strongly with Black American culture (hip-hop culture). Put a black guy in a suit next to a black guy dressed in inner-city urban attire and put them into various situations and you'll see how dress appearance plays a huge role. Yes the black guy in the suit will run into some problems too, but not nearly as many as the black guy dressed in inner-city urban attire. rs.

It wasnt the only basis. But regardless. If a technology was developed to make them whiter then whitie, shoul it be used?
Discrimination is very real. So why not new black boen babies in the hood, facing a life of discrimination be given theis technokogy. Make them white. Should we?

T
The ones I know of personally were both born deaf with implants and late-deafened. But I work in the tech industry and higher ed so I do admit I encounter people who are well off more so than those who are not. My perspective on that could be eschewed. I have not encountered born Deaf in tech who aren't implanted. In higher ed I have, but they were non-tech and they teach ASL courses, very niche, not mainstream.rs.

Alright

T We don't actually need the stats afterall. We know that English mastery increases career prospects, and we know that CI helps kids learn English. Like you said, learning English without being able to perceive it is damned hard.


It doesn't have to be that way. Not this day in age.rs.

Right. Its just first and formost about assimilation. We get discriminwted against in hearie soceity due to wdusim. So....rather then addressing audism or discrimination, intead its "make us hearie" or as close as technology can.
But what if the real discrimination was addressed? And audism challenged?
The drill is allot easier, and its a huge money maker so fat chance.

Fighting against any deep pocketed industry is a terrible fight to pursue if you're trying to lessen their ability to make money. Fighting against CI lessens that, they maybe they fight back? Maybe there really is a movement to assimilate. But why fight against CI? Fight for ASL. That doesn't take away their profit and it's a compromise solution for hearing vs Deaf culture. It also gives kids a real choice instead of parents choosing one way or the other.rs.

Of course theres a movement to assimilate. Its called oralism..the beast has been around an awfull long time. It has its ideoloougues like bell, who stoped short of cslling for.the murder of living Deaf not because he was morally opposed to such acts. But simply he didnt believe it would be a sufficent means to cleans us from rhe gene pool. Hence he pushed for sterilizatiin. His greatest fear was a signing Deaf race..oraliam is nothing new. Ci has given it a huge lease on life though, it is after all oralisms final solution.

TYou should be advocating that they do sign though, you need more signers. More ASL. Strengthen the language, strengthen the culture, increase the numbers.

I undersand that and agree. But most adults who implant are just as much audist as the doc holding the drill.
Believe me ive been arouns this for a while.

 

[hoichi]

[

We basically agree on the stuff above this one so I reduced it.

You said yourself that it's hard to learn English without ever being able to perceive it. CI lets profound deaf born hear to some degree and getting CI early makes it easier for the brain to adapt. Is there more needed than this?L.

Allot more is needed. Frankly for profound Deaf born asl is what is needed. Contrary to the hype ci isnt the dazzle maricle it claims. Not for profound born. So really implanting Deaf and tossed in hearie school with no support, or soul crushing mainstream...its. short sited. The company still gets paid, the doc still gets paid. The parents think they have a maricle. The kid is screwed. I believe the ci in the above to be more harmfull.

I answered that I gauge success by career success (financial success) and by happiness. With net-worth and income type stats being easier to gauge. People who have high-tier jobs are assumed to be more successful than people who flip burgers.

The happiness factor is so dependent on other things that it's hard to use as a measure, but I can't imagine being happier having a hard time making ends meet than having a stable career that lets the bills be paid without much worry.L.

Thats how you measure it. Cool. But the ci industry measures success on how well you can flap your beak like a parrot.

So if English proficiency leads to better career options (we agree this is the case in the US and CA right?). And better Career options mean a better chance of making more money (having a better career). And being able to hear to some degree makes learning English easier (you said this yourself). Then we have to admit then that CI can lead to more options and a higher chance of financial and career success.L.

Well..we have had over 20 years of ci implanted in our babies. How well have they done?

Then ASL fits perfectly into this picture because with or without a CI you're still Deaf. So forget about CI and fight for ASL.

I agree. But heres my bargain.
Ill forget about ci, the minute ci professionals forget about sign.
Until then
Its on..

 

[hoichi]

Sparks another fat joint.

 

[Nic]

It wasnt the only basis. But regardless. If a technology was developed to make them whiter then whitie, shoul it be used?
Discrimination is very real. So why not new black boen babies in the hood, facing a life of discrimination be given theis technokogy. Make them white. Should we?

It'd be their choice, if such a technology existed. And parents would be able to choose for their kids.

It's a superficial change though, it's just a color, it doesn't change their ability to do something like hear. It's really not the same apples and oranges.

Right. Its just first and formost about assimilation. We get discriminwted against in hearie soceity due to wdusim. So....rather then addressing audism or discrimination, intead its "make us hearie" or as close as technology can.
But what if the real discrimination was addressed? And audism challenged?
The drill is allot easier, and its a huge money maker so fat chance.

Audism is real, there's no doubt. Most of it isn't just pure hate though, it's ignorance, impatience, and ineptitude. There aren't really people who are raised with audist parents who talk about how Deaf people are horrible to be avoided at all costs, and oh don't drive in a Deaf neighborhood because you might get shot at... It's different than most forms of racism. It's real, but it's different.

Of course theres a movement to assimilate. Its called oralism..the beast has been around an awfull long time. It has its ideoloougues like bell, who stoped short of cslling for.the murder of living Deaf not because he was morally opposed to such acts. But simply he didnt believe it would be a sufficent means to cleans us from rhe gene pool. Hence he pushed for sterilizatiin. His greatest fear was a signing Deaf race..oraliam is nothing new. Ci has given it a huge lease on life though, it is after all oralisms final solution.

You can't deny that Oral gives more opportunity than non-oral. There are just some jobs that require oral comm. The push for oral when it's possible is a push to bring opportunity. Life is about seizing opportunity. Parents can only help create opportunity, and most really want to do that.

I undersand that and agree. But most adults who implant are just as much audist as the doc holding the drill.
Believe me ive been arouns this for a while.

So help them see the light, help them understand.

It's not an easy adjustment for late-deafened adults. I completely understand the gut reaction that you want to restore things to how they were no matter what it takes. Adults do this with all sorts of stuff. Most people really don't like change. Most people can't handle it well. Having support, having a sympathetic ear, hearing about other people's journey... these things help.

The Deaf community can bring late deafened in, rather than the many many late deafened who feel pushed out. A couple bad experiences and someone's attitude toward an entire community can be soured. Look at the general thread from that Canvas girl. She had a couple people giving her a hard time and she seems to have taken their comments to heart and was ready to write off AllDeaf as a resource because of it.

Turn all those missed opportunities into a chance at reverse assimilation. Take the deaf and make them Deaf. Help them be Deaf. They want help, they want guidance, the want someone to relate to.