9/11 - what happened?

What brought down the three towers?

  • Damage caused directly (for 1 & 2) and indirectly (for 7) by the impact of the plane

    Votes: 44 74.6%
  • Controlled demolition

    Votes: 15 25.4%

  • Total voters
    59
And that is why you believe it??
No. I'm just explaining that your assumptions about where I get my information are erroneous. Also, you keep missing my point that it's not just the US government that believes the 19 hijackers died in the terrorist attack. BOTH sides of the conflict believe the hijackers died when they crashed the planes.

I suppose the Jihadist terrorist groups are pawns of the US government, too. :roll:
 
Let me ask the questions in another way:

...Have you seen a video showing a 757 hitting the Pentagon...
Have you seen a video of anything other than a 757 hitting the Pentagon?

Why did WTC-7 collapse, when other high-rise closer to WTC 1 and WTC-2 remained standing...
Why did the other high-rise buildings remain standing when the WTC-7 collapsed?

BTW: Silverstein owned all the building that collapsed. Buildings that he did not own, did not collapse...
Did Silverstein own the Pentagon? Did Silverstein rig the Pentagon to collapse?

Was the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania headed for another rigged Silverstein building?

Interestingly, Mr. Silverstein didn't buy enough insurance coverage, according to The Sun of New York, Dec. 29, 2006 edition (Silverstein Can't Recover WTC Redesign Costs, by Chad Bray, Dow Jones Newswires, Nov. 1, 2006). It seems if this was a "plot" he should have done more planning.
Silverstein Can't Recover WTC Redesign Costs - November 1, 2006 - The New York Sun


But then again. That's a fact. Not proof...
That's right. Random "facts" (if that's what they truly are) are not proof. They must be analyzed for cause and effect relationship, if any is there.

In a criminal trial, both sides use the same "facts" to prove their cases.


Sometimes it just depends on how you phrase your questions.
 
Let me answer inside your message...
Let me ask the questions in another way:


Have you seen a video of anything other than a 757 hitting the Pentagon?
I never claimed it was anything else. The government said it was a 757. They have footage of 50+ camera's, so I'm just curious why they cannot produce anything even remotely looking like a 757...

Why did the other high-rise buildings remain standing when the WTC-7 collapsed?
Indeed... Other buildings were more damaged, has fires... My guess is that they could not be rigged as they were not owned by Silversteen.

Did Silverstein own the Pentagon? Did Silverstein rig the Pentagon to collapse?Ah, the pentagon... Why would terrorists that are smart enough to plan all this, stupid enough to attack the only part of the Pentagon that was empty and reinforced.. Instead of the eastwing where all the important people are....
BTW... You - the american citizens own the Pentagon.


Was the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania headed for another rigged Silverstein building?Who knows... It did kill people investigating a 2.3 trillion dollar (2 300 bilion or 2 300 000 milion) that the Pentagon just lost. (Announced on the day before 9/11

Interestingly, Mr. Silverstein didn't buy enough insurance coverage, according to The Sun of New York, Dec. 29, 2006 edition (Silverstein Can't Recover WTC Redesign Costs, by Chad Bray, Dow Jones Newswires, Nov. 1, 2006). It seems if this was a "plot" he should have done more planning.
Silverstein Can't Recover WTC Redesign Costs - November 1, 2006 - The New York SunWell, he specifically insured against Terrorist attackes.... go figure. Also, he admitted that he and NYFD "decided" to "pull" (not "pull out") building 7... So he demolished his own building..
Conveniently, the removal of the asbestos in WTC-1 and WTC-2 did not only cost him millions of dollars, he got money from the insurance companies after he demolished it...


That's right. Random "facts" (if that's what they truly are) are not proof. They must be analyzed for cause and effect relationship, if any is there.

In a criminal trial, both sides use the same "facts" to prove their cases.


Sometimes it just depends on how you phrase your questions.
No, a case is solved by looking at the evidence. Not by asking stupid questions like "Have you seen a video of anything other than a 757 hitting the Pentagon?"

Sometimes patrioism is actually doubting the government..

BTW: Why did WTC-7 fall down ??
 
.........BOTH sides of the conflict believe the hijackers died when they crashed the planes.

I suppose the Jihadist terrorist groups are pawns of the US government, too. :roll:
Actually, it looks like no-one really believes it. The USA government knows they did not but doesn't change it's statement, the muslims don't believe it but it is great propaganda, the people looking at the evidence can show they are alive (from british intelligence souces and other sources) and the only people that believe it is people like you that just swallow anything that the media is feeding them..

Have you ever in all the posts you have made here given a FACT ?
 

No, a case is solved by looking at the evidence. Not by asking stupid questions like "Have you seen a video of anything other than a 757 hitting the Pentagon?"
Apparently the only "stupid" questions are ones asked by anyone other than you, or from any viewpoint other than your's.

Undoubtedly, any answers to your questions by someone as "stupid" as myself are a waste of time.
 
Actually, it looks like no-one really believes it. The USA government knows they did not but doesn't change it's statement...
And someone inside "the USA government" personally told you that as a fact?

(Excepting your "answers" of "I guess", or "who knows?" to my questions.)


...the muslims don't believe it...
Ah, you've been inside their minds, too! Wow!


...the people looking at the evidence can show they are alive...
How about the people themselves? Why haven't these "living" hijackers stepped forward on Jihadist TV?


... the only people that believe it is people like you that just swallow anything that the media is feeding them...
As opposed to people like you that just swallow anything you find on the internet?


Have you ever in all the posts you have made here given a FACT?
Yes. Truthfully, I don't think you'd recognize a fact if it bit you in the butt.
 
Reba,
Funny how you're diverting attention away from a simple question directed to you........ Like "Why did the WTC-7 collapse" of "have you ever given facts"
You reply with throwing around words like terrorists, Jihad, Muslims, hijackers.... but without any FACTS....

About your question "Why haven't these "living" hijackers stepped forward on Jihadist TV?".. they have... (click the links below and find out) But why should that be on Jihadist TV. (And what in Gods name is that??)

About the suiside-hijackers that are still alive... have a look here... or here... or here... with links to source of information.

BUT my guess is you don't really want to know. That would shatter you feeling of safety.
But the number of terrorists would remain the same... the nationality and beliefs would change....!!!

Regarding FACTS...
Fact: Buildings do not fall at freefall speed unless intentionally demolished - The government lied!!
Fact: Fire has never brought down a steel stucture, excepth 3 buildings on 2001-sept-11 - The government lied!!
Fact: There has not been shown a picture or video of a 757 crashing in the Pentagon. - The government is hiding information to prevent exposure to... lying!!
Fact: Allmost all evidence of the crimes has been destroyed by the government. (Which is illegal.) - The government is hiding information to prevent exposure to... lying!!


So.... no facts from your side..
 
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I was reading thru this thread and it is really confusing to me. I thought Al Queda was responsible for the terrorists attacks? Correct me if I am wrong, are there suggestions that there was a conspiracy by our own US govt? My mind couldnt absorb all the info from Cloggy, Reba, and Heath.

I always thought it was simple and straightforwarded...Bid Laden wanted to attack the US and he successfully planned a series of events to make the attacks a reality?
 
I was reading thru this thread and it is really confusing to me. I thought Al Queda was responsible for the terrorists attacks? Correct me if I am wrong, are there suggestions that there was a conspiracy by our own US govt? My mind couldnt absorb all the info from Cloggy, Reba, and Heath.

I always thought it was simple and straightforwarded...Bid Laden wanted to attack the US and he successfully planned a series of events to make the attacks a reality?
HAve a look at previous topics in AllDeaf here, here, here, here, here, here...

But let me ask you a simple question...
* How many buildings were destroyed / collapsed?
* What caused the collapse.?

(I had both answers wrong previous to 9/11 2006..)
 
HAve a look at previous topics in AllDeaf here, here, here, here, here, here...

But let me ask you a simple question...
* How many buildings were destroyed / collapsed?
* What caused the collapse.?

(I had both answers wrong previous to 9/11 2006..)

Ok thanks for the help. How many buildings were destroyed? Many buildings, in my opinion, were destroyed. I did go to ground zero about 9 months after the attacks and I could see extensive damage to the surrounding buildings.

The collapse was caused by the extremely high heat from the jet fuel melting the structure holding the buildings.
 
Ok thanks for the help. How many buildings were destroyed? Many buildings, in my opinion, were destroyed. I did go to ground zero about 9 months after the attacks and I could see extensive damage to the surrounding buildings.

The collapse was caused by the extremely high heat from the jet fuel melting the structure holding the buildings.
Well, most people think that 2 towers/buildings collapsed. WTC-1 and WTC-2. In fact there were three. For some unexplained reason, WTC-7 (further away than any other buildings) also collapsed....!!!

Regarding the jet fuel. Even at perfect combustion, jetfuel will not reach the temperatures to melt or even severly weaken steel.
People are cooking on jet-fuel, and this is with the correct mix of fuel and oxygen. Then the flame is blue. Pots and pans (and cooker) do not melt.

About "melting the structure". If it was even true that "the structure would melt" then only the top would collapse..

But don't worry. I had not thought about it either before I saw a documentary "Loose Change". You can watch it on internet, not sure if you can understand the sound...
But there's plenty info around....
 
Well, most people think that 2 towers/buildings collapsed. In fact there were three.

Regarding the jet fuel. Even at perfect combustion, jetfuel will not reach the temperatures to melt or even severly weaken steel.
People are cooking on jet-fuel, and this is with the correct mix of fuel and oxygen. Then the flame is blue. Pots and pans (and cooker) do not melt.

About "melting the structure". If it was even true that "the structure would melt" then only the top would collapse..

But don't worry. I had not thought about it either before I saw a documentary "Loose Change". You can watch it on internet, not sure if you can understand the sound...
But there's plenty info around....

Right..the top part of the structure melted or became weak and then all the weight from the top part compressed the rest of the building. The whole building didnt "melt" ..just a small portion of it around the crash site and the support gave away.
 
Right..the top part of the structure melted or became weak and then all the weight from the top part compressed the rest of the building. The whole building didnt "melt" ..just a small portion of it around the crash site and the support gave away.
Sorry. Not possible. (Steel doesn't melt due to jet-fuel)
But do some research and be amazed!
 
Therese McAllister, Ph.D., P.E.
Building and Fire Research Laboratory
National Institute of Standards and Technology
U.S. Department of Commerce
Therese.McAllister@nist.gov
Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation
of the World Trade Center Disaster
WTC 7 Technical Approach and Status
Summary

December 12, 2006​

Topics for Discussion
Status of Investigation
More comprehensive approach for all technical issues
Progress to date

No findings or conclusions will be presented as the analysis is ongoing

Status Summary Status
When NIST initiated the WTC investigation, it made a decision not to hire new
staff to support the investigation.
After the June 2004 progress report on the WTC investigation was issued, the
NIST investigation team stopped working on WTC 7 and was assigned fulltime
through the fall of 2005 to complete the investigation of the WTC
towers.
With the release and dissemination of the report on the WTC towers in October 2005, the investigation of the WTC 7 collapse resumed.
Considerable progress has been made since that time, including:
review of nearly 80 boxes of new documents related to WTC 7
development of detailed technical approaches for modeling and analyzing various collapse hypotheses
selection of a contractor to assist NIST staff in carrying out the analyses.

It is anticipated that a draft report will be released by Spring 2007.

Working Collapse Hypothesis Working Collapse
The current NIST working collapse hypothesis for WTC 7 is described in the June 2004 Progress Report on the Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster (Volume 1, page 17, as well as Appendix L), as follows:
An initial local failure occurred at the lower floors (below floor 13) of the
building due to fire and/or debris-induced structural damage of a critical
column (the initiating event) which supported a large-span floor bay with an
area of about 2,000 square feet;
Vertical progression of the initial local failure occurred up to the east
penthouse, and as the large floor bays became unable to redistribute the
loads, it brought down the interior structure below the east penthouse; and
Triggered by damage due to the vertical failure, horizontal progression of the failure across the lower floors (in the region of floors 5 and 7 that were much thicker and more heavily reinforced than the rest of the floors) resulted in a disproportionate collapse of the entire structure.
This hypothesis may be supported or modified, or new hypotheses may be developed, through the course of the continuing investigation.

Hypothetical Blast Analysis
NIST is analyzing scenarios for the event that initiated the collapse of WTC 7. As a part of this work, NIST is considering whether hypothetical blast events could have played a role in initiating the collapse. While NIST has found no evidence of a blast or controlled demolition event, NIST will estimate the magnitude of hypothetical blast scenarios that could have led to the structural failure of one or more critical elements as a result of blast.
Phase I Identify hypothetical blast scenarios and materials, based on
analysis and/or experience, for failing specified columns by direct
attachment methods. Preliminary section cutting shall be considered.
Compare estimated overpressures for each scenario against window
strength.
Phase II For blast scenarios with overpressures that clearly would not have broken windows, the worst case scenario(s) will be analyzed using SHAMRC software to determine overpressures at windows.
Phase III If Phase II overpressures did not clearly fail windows, 3 blast scenarios will be selected to determine the sound levels that would be
transmitted outside the building through intact windows.

ANSYS Analysis of Initiating Events
The response of WTC 7 to debris impact damage and fire events is being
analyzed to identify initiating events of component and subsystem failures
leading to global collapse.
The analysis will use an ANSYS model of the lower 16 floors, as significant
fires were observed between floors 7 and 13.
The ANSYS model includes steel framing, concrete slabs with smeared
properties for steel decks and reinforcement, material properties for elastic,
plastic, and creep behavior at elevated temperatures, break elements for
connection capacity and service gravity loads.
Analyses of up to 12 damage and fire scenarios will be based on:
two structural damage states based on available evidence
assumed fireproofing conditions
temperature histories that may be up to 7 h long.

The fireproofing condition was not directly observed, and its condition is based on analysis that considers the FP bond strength, accelerations imparted by the debris impact, and observations from the Banker’s Trust building.

LS-DYNA Analysis of Global Response to Initiating Events
The LS-DYNA global analyses will determine if global collapse will result from
initiating events (due to fire or blast) which will be input as initial conditions.
Task 1. Floor Component and Subsystem Analyses
Determine floor response and failure modes for up to 20 initiating event
scenarios
Develop an equivalent floor model mesh appropriate for global analyses
Task 2. Global Analyses
Determine global structural stability for two damage states
Conduct a sensitivity study where up to 20 initiating events are
analyzed, through member removal or other appropriate approach, to
determine structural stability following the loss of support and the
sequence of member failures that result from a given scenario
Conduct final analyses that simulate the initiating event, whether due to
fire or other effects, and the subsequent failure sequence up to global
collapse (including the vertical and horizontal progression of failures up
to the point of global instability)
http://wtc.nist.gov/media/WTC7_Approach_Summary12Dec06.pdf
 
...You reply with throwing around words like terrorists, Jihad, Muslims, hijackers.... but without any FACTS....
I give you facts with resource links; you just blow them off.

I don't "throw around words". I name the players as I see them. I don't follow the current trend of referring to every bloke as "the gentleman." People who hijack planes are hijackers. People who use terror against people are terrorists. People who say they follow the teachings of Mohammed are Muslims. People who vow to battle against the West and/or non-Muslims are Jihadists. What else should I call them?


BUT my guess is you don't really want to know. That would shatter you feeling of safety.
What feeling of safety? I don't get a feeling of safety knowing that there are large groups of individuals who would love to slash my throat or blow me up just because I'm an American Christian. There is no "feeling of safety" to shatter.


Regarding FACTS...
Fact: Buildings do not fall at freefall speed unless intentionally demolished - The government lied!!
That is NOT a "fact".

NIST’s findings also do not support the “controlled demolition” theory since there is conclusive evidence that:

* the collapse was initiated in the impact and fire floors of the WTC towers and nowhere else, and;

* the time it took for the collapse to initiate (56 minutes for WTC 2 and 102 minutes for WTC 1) was dictated by (1) the extent of damage caused by the aircraft impact, and (2) the time it took for the fires to reach critical locations and weaken the structure to the point that the towers could not resist the tremendous energy released by the downward movement of the massive top section of the building at and above the fire and impact floors.

Video evidence also showed unambiguously that the collapse progressed from the top to the bottom, and there was no evidence (collected by NIST, or by the New York Police Department, the Port Authority Police Department or the Fire Department of New York) of any blast or explosions in the region below the impact and fire floors as the top building sections (including and above the 98th floor in WTC 1 and the 82nd floor in WTC 2) began their downward movement upon collapse initiation.

In summary, NIST found no corroborating evidence for alternative hypotheses suggesting that the WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolition using explosives planted prior to Sept. 11, 2001. NIST also did not find any evidence that missiles were fired at or hit the towers. Instead, photographs and videos from several angles clearly show that the collapse initiated at the fire and impact floors and that the collapse progressed from the initiating floors downward until the dust clouds obscured the view.

...NIST estimated the elapsed times for the first exterior panels to strike the ground after the collapse initiated in each of the towers to be approximately 11 seconds for WTC 1 and approximately 9 seconds for WTC 2. These elapsed times were based on: (1) precise timing of the initiation of collapse from video evidence, and (2) ground motion (seismic) signals recorded at Palisades, N.Y., that also were precisely time-calibrated for wave transmission times from lower Manhattan (see NCSTAR 1-5A).

As documented in Section 6.14.4 of NIST NCSTAR 1, these collapse times show that:

“… the structure below the level of collapse initiation offered minimal resistance to the falling building mass at and above the impact zone. The potential energy released by the downward movement of the large building mass far exceeded the capacity of the intact structure below to absorb that energy through energy of deformation.

Since the stories below the level of collapse initiation provided little resistance to the tremendous energy released by the falling building mass, the building section above came down essentially in free fall, as seen in videos. As the stories below sequentially failed, the falling mass increased, further increasing the demand on the floors below, which were unable to arrest the moving mass.”

In other words, the momentum (which equals mass times velocity) of the 12 to 28 stories (WTC 1 and WTC 2, respectively) falling on the supporting structure below (which was designed to support only the static weight of the floors above and not any dynamic effects due to the downward momentum) so greatly exceeded the strength capacity of the structure below that it (the structure below) was unable to stop or even to slow the falling mass. The downward momentum felt by each successive lower floor was even larger due to the increasing mass.

From video evidence, significant portions of the cores of both buildings (roughly 60 stories of WTC 1 and 40 stories of WTC 2) are known to have stood 15 to 25 seconds after collapse initiation before they, too, began to collapse. Neither the duration of the seismic records nor video evidence (due to obstruction of view caused by debris clouds) are reliable indicators of the total time it took for each building to collapse completelyhttp://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm



Fact: Fire has never brought down a steel stucture, excepth 3 buildings on 2001-sept-11 - The government lied!!
The events of 9/11 were unique; how does that prove the government "lied"? It doesn't. That is NOT a "fact".

...The collapse of the WTC towers was not caused either by a conventional building fire or even solely by the concurrent multi-floor fires that day. Instead, NIST concluded that the WTC towers collapsed because: (1) the impact of the planes severed and damaged support columns, dislodged fireproofing insulation coating the steel floor trusses and steel columns, and widely dispersed jet fuel over multiple floors; and (2) the subsequent unusually large, jet-fuel ignited multi-floor fires weakened the now susceptible structural steel. No building in the United States has ever been subjected to the massive structural damage and concurrent multi-floor fires that the towers experienced on Sept. 11, 2001.


Fact: There has not been shown a picture or video of a 757 crashing in the Pentagon. - The government is hiding information to prevent exposure to... lying!!
Again, you confuse opinion with fact. Does anyone have any proof that the government is withholding a video that would show anything other than what they have stated? No? Then what is the "fact"? Just because the government hasn't shown you a video that satisfies you doesn't mean they are "hiding" information to prevent exposure of a lie. That is your conclusion; that's not a "fact".


Fact: Allmost all evidence of the crimes has been destroyed by the government. (Which is illegal.) - The government is hiding information to prevent exposure to... lying!!
Do you have someone's confession of doing these things? Do you have video evidence? Do you have audio recordings? Has someone found these so-called hidden sources of information? No? Then on what do you base this "fact"? Nothing.


So.... no facts from your side..
That's funny; I was about to say the same thing about your "side".
 
Reba,
I'll reply inside your post...
I give you facts with resource links; you just blow them off.
Which facts?
................

What feeling of safety? I don't get a feeling of safety knowing that there are large groups of individuals who would love to slash my throat or blow me up just because I'm an American Christian. There is no "feeling of safety" to shatter.There is if the alternative that your government is sacrificing you in order to control oil in the middle east.

..............
NIST’s findings also do not support the “controlled demolition” theory since there is conclusive evidence that:

* the collapse was initiated in the impact and fire floors of the WTC towers and nowhere else, and; The buildings were fine after the impact. Black smoke indicated low temperature / bad combustion. People were standing in the holes of the towers!

* the time it took for the collapse to initiate (56 minutes for WTC 2 and 102 minutes for WTC 1) was dictated by (1) the extent of damage caused by the aircraft impact, and (2) the time it took for the fires to reach critical locations and weaken the structure to the point that the towers could not resist the tremendous energy released by the downward movement of the massive top section of the building at and above the fire and impact floors.
The tower was build to hold far more. Fire could not weaken the steel. And if it had, the towers would have toppled. The pancake collapse you describe caould theoratically happen BUT :
* It would take much longerto fall. The floors would slow down the fall. (It is calculated that it would take at least 110 seconds)
* It would leave the 47 steel reinforced center columns standing (like the old record-player.... remember)
* It would leave the outer walls standing as well, leaving an empty tube that would then topple.
* It would leave a huge pile of debris, long sections, staircases, etc. Not 30ft steel sections
* It would not cause 30ft steel beams to be ejected outward like can be seen on many pictures

NIST is owned by the government... Go figure !


Video evidence also showed unambiguously that the collapse progressed from the top to the bottom, and there was no evidence (collected by NIST, or by the New York Police Department, the Port Authority Police Department or the Fire Department of New York) of any blast or explosions in the region below the impact and fire floors as the top building sections (including and above the 98th floor in WTC 1 and the 82nd floor in WTC 2) began their downward movement upon collapse initiation. What evidence. ?Everything was hauled away. (destroying evidence !) Seismo-meters have registered blasts. Check it out with a google search. And many witnesses have told about explosions they heared....

In summary, NIST found no corroborating evidence for alternative hypotheses suggesting that the WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolition using explosives planted prior to Sept. 11, 2001. NIST also did not find any evidence that missiles were fired at or hit the towers. Instead, photographs and videos from several angles clearly show that the collapse initiated at the fire and impact floors and that the collapse progressed from the initiating floors downward until the dust clouds obscured the view.The collapse of the WTS's shows all signs of controlled demolition. Including explosions seen BELOW the collision zone when the towers were brought down. Many video's show it. Do you dare to watch it?

...NIST estimated the elapsed times for the first exterior panels to strike the ground after the collapse initiated in each of the towers to be approximately 11 seconds for WTC 1 and approximately 9 seconds for WTC 2. These elapsed times were based on: (1) precise timing of the initiation of collapse from video evidence, and (2) ground motion (seismic) signals recorded at Palisades, N.Y., that also were precisely time-calibrated for wave transmission times from lower Manhattan (see NCSTAR 1-5A). TRUE. And this is the same time a ball would take if dropped from those heights....
And how can a building collapse with freefall speed..... demolition only.


As documented in Section 6.14.4 of NIST NCSTAR 1, these collapse times show that:

“… the structure below the level of collapse initiation offered minimal resistance to the falling building mass at and above the impact zone. The potential energy released by the downward movement of the large building mass far exceeded the capacity of the intact structure below to absorb that energy through energy of deformation.Wrong... energy - a lot - would be needed to break the floors. Speed would be reduced.
And even so. The central colume would be standing after this. And the exterior walls..!!!!


..............................

From video evidence, significant portions of the cores of both buildings (roughly 60 stories of WTC 1 and 40 stories of WTC 2) are known to have stood 15 to 25 seconds after collapse initiation before they, too, began to collapse. Neither the duration of the seismic records nor video evidence (due to obstruction of view caused by debris clouds) are reliable indicators of the total time it took for each building to collapse completelyhttp://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm
Ah.. there is the explanation. Such nonsense. The inner structure could have supported itself, without the rest.
But then, why didn't it come down like a spagetti ??
utter nonsense.



The events of 9/11 were unique; how does that prove the government "lied"? It doesn't. That is NOT a "fact".
Planes have flown in buildings before. A WW-II bomber flew into the Empire State Building! . It didn't collapse. The WTC had had fires before (1976 if I recall) over multiple floors, far dow. It didn't collapse. Many towers have had fires - before and after 9/11 - and burned longer and hotter (indicated by yellow flames instead of the black smoke) and they didn't collapse.

...The collapse of the WTC towers was not caused either by a conventional building fire or even solely by the concurrent multi-floor fires that day. Instead, NIST concluded that the WTC towers collapsed because: (1) the impact of the planes severed and damaged support columns, dislodged fireproofing insulation coating the steel floor trusses and steel columns, and widely dispersed jet fuel over multiple floors; and (2) the subsequent unusually large, jet-fuel ignited multi-floor fires weakened the now susceptible structural steel. No building in the United States has ever been subjected to the massive structural damage and concurrent multi-floor fires that the towers experienced on Sept. 11, 2001.The plane that hit WTC-2 did not hit the center of the tower. It went out to the side. Even so, the center core was OK. People escaped through those cores from floors ABOVE the impact zone to below.!!


Again, you confuse opinion with fact. Does anyone have any proof that the government is withholding a video that would show anything other than what they have stated? No? Then what is the "fact"? Just because the government hasn't shown you a video that satisfies you doesn't mean they are "hiding" information to prevent exposure of a lie. That is your conclusion; that's not a "fact".YES. They confiscated video's from hotels and petrol stations. This is FACT. These locations had clear view on the impact zone.

Do you have someone's confession of doing these things? Do you have video evidence? Do you have audio recordings? Has someone found these so-called hidden sources of information? No? Then on what do you base this "fact"? Nothing.With the pentagon being secured as it is, multiple camera's are watching all area's. So, video-footage IS available... Or do you really believe that the only footage is a 5-frame footage from a booth camera??

That's funny; I was about to say the same thing about your "side".
So,
Instead of giving FACTS you copy / past the results of a investigation paid for by the government.
Me, I can show all of these facts to be incorrect. But you believe it since "it's from my government - and they don't lie.."

Well, after all this, tell me...

What did NIST tell you about WTC-7.
That collapsed, No planes hit it, hardly any fires, and it went down... straight down, in the afternoon....

Stop quoting the government. Start thinking for yourself!!
 
...Instead of giving FACTS you copy / past the results of a investigation paid for by the government.
I'm not an engineer, so I gave you the conclusions made by an engineer who had access to all the evidence.

I suppose I should believe you (whom I don't even know)?


Me, I can show all of these facts to be incorrect.
When are you going to do that?


But you believe it since "it's from my government - and they don't lie.."
There you go again, playing mind reader. Don't give up your day job.


What did NIST tell you about WTC-7.
That collapsed, No planes hit it, hardly any fires, and it went down... straight down, in the afternoon....
It made a lot more sense than anything you posted.


Stop quoting the government. Start thinking for yourself!!
Do you really want to hear what I think? Or do you just want me to agree with you? I have been thinking for myself, and my conclusions don't mesh with your's.

The difference is, that upsets you, and it doesn't upset me. :P
 
I'm not an engineer, so I gave you the conclusions made by an engineer who had access to all the evidence.

I suppose I should believe you (whom I don't even know)?
Finally, you've made a very good point...

Do Not Believe Me.!! (I'm sure that's not a stretch) but then be fair and also question the government, who is being "charged" here. Look around for another source.
Find an engineer around you that you do know, and ask him or her to look at the points that I put down. Or just ask "Can a building "pancake" at free-fall speed ??"

BTW... have you found out why WTC-7 collapsed on it's own footprint ??
 
Finally, you've made a very good point...

Do Not Believe Me.!! (I'm sure that's not a stretch) but then be fair and also question the government, who is being "charged" here. Look around for another source.
Find an engineer around you that you do know, and ask him or her to look at the points that I put down. Or just ask "Can a building "pancake" at free-fall speed ??"

BTW... have you found out why WTC-7 collapsed on it's own footprint ??
OIE! Sorry. I didn't know that kicking the dead horse would awaken it. I read your posts and can't believe you are still on this conspiracy kick. You keep saying we believe the government version and nobody has ever said that. Yet you seem to get sucked in by the web sites that have no supported scientific or forensic proof. And you try to make us believe that those are the sources we should look to for the facts.

But we are the fools for believing facts that have been gathered through evidence and have held up to peer review by independant professionals and industry organizations. (No emotion or government involved there). You continue to put a spin on how people respond to meet your agenda. You ask the same questions over and over again and they have been answered over and over again. And not by what you call "the government version" but by independent groups and organizations that have met protocol and have held up to peer review and are supported by independent agencies and organizations all of which are sited in previous posts by myself and others.

So is it really that you think we actually believe the government version or is it that we don't agree with your version that motivates you to continue this endless pursuit for "by-in" to your conspiracy theories.

You know it's no secret that the US government dropped the ball in terms of taking appropriate actions to mitigate an attack that was imminent according to intelligence. At the end of the day it's a matter of how you draw your personal conclusions. Do you believe what you see on conspiracy theory websites that can't produce evidence that holds up to protocol, or do you believe other sources that do? I personally choose the latter but won't fault you or call you a fool or say that you have your head up your ass because you don't draw your conclusions the way that I do. You have your right to your opinion no matter how unfounded it is. You should really practice what you preach and look to other (non-government) sources that debunk the conspiracy theories. Put your emotions aside and really view these sources objectivly and look at this from a purly scientific point of view. A process that is supported by the scientific community and meets protocol. Anything else is just an opinion and you know what they say about opinions. Just because someone puts up a website and calls it Truth, doesn't mean that it is.
 
Rockdrummer..

So, how did WTC-7 come down?

Care to investigate ?
 
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