Wrestling with Angels

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Frisky;
Thanks for the suggestion! I'll give it a try!
 
I suppose it possible to discuss say on how one's believes in dealing with Deafness from a personal experience- however anyone "disagreeing "usually takes their position as "correct. Thus the ongoing "pushback". Cultural vs oral DEAFNESS- for openers

Not exactly an abstract discussion in "geometry".
 
<chuckle> I really did mean Angels, ya'll.

King James: " And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."

In art and later versions of the text, the "man" is not a man, but an Angel. Thus, Jacob is thought to have wrestled the Angel until the Angel blessed him. The metaphor 'wrestling with angels" is commonly used in Canonical cultures to mean struggling with an idea until one finds enlightenment.
 
teamint said:
How about this: if we say (and I am not saying I believe it, but it does seem to be a common belief, as I have recently learned here)

1. Hearing people can not understand Deaf people because they cannot 'walk a mile in their shoes' and be Deaf.

2. And, likewise, Deaf people must not be able to understand Hearing people because they, too, can not 'walk a mile' and be Hearing.

Then, how can the cultures hope to work together for mutual betterment?
Click to expand...

One slight thing you might not have foreseen in your theory, it's not so black and white as it might seem to be.
You are assuming that most deafies are born and raised straight ASL only, deaf culture from the get-go... That is not the case for the majority these days.
Some deafies are products of hearing world components, as in suddenly lost hearing over time or overnight one day. They can equally represent both worlds. Some of these folks participated in that thread.

This is why complications exist to address the real issue, if you are trying to do so. You have to take into account of everyone's backgrounds.
 
teamint said:
To discuss things, exchange ideas, etc. A "safe zone" for exploration -- where people do not have to all be in accord to talk about ideas. I was hoping it might interest someone who would be willing to share their experiences and ideas. I want to understand other perspectives. I really do. And there is no possible way for me to be re-born Deaf in order to understand. So, I need to find people who are willing to converse.
Click to expand...
then you need to ask right questions and approach with humility.

teamint said:
I am not sure what you mean by "too personal." I am not offended or anything by the other thread. I'm just saddened that my curiosity seemed to anger people. I don't understand. But, in effort to accept their disposition, I created a different thread. It seemed like the kind thing to do? I think.

I wondered to my spouse if the reactionary response might be a Deaf culture thing. What do you think? She said she doesn't think so. She thinks it is a 'logic person' vs 'emotional person' thing. She could be right; she often has to translate things that I find bizarrely illogical, for me to better understand. Emotionalism is not my area. I can fake it, when I have a patient in front of me or something. But in reality, I don't get it. And no, I don't think that is a hearing person thing, because I have met more emotional hearing people than I have logical hearing people. Which may, in fact, contribute to hearing people rudeness? Not sure; I will have to think about that more.
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i'm curious - what is the extent of your spouse's experience with deaf culture? does she know ASL?
 
Teamint, correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to have the same problem I do, just on a much more extreme level. You are trying to intellectually box something that cannot be boxed very easily on an intellectual level because it's more emotionally based. You seem to have more trouble than I do with it and for that I really send my sympathy.

If that's the case, then I know you're not trying to be an ass. If I am correct, then you probably frequently find yourself having insulted people and then be genuinely confused on why they got so angry and unable to find ANY reason why they COULD be angry. It happens VERY frequently to me.

Guys, if this is the case it truly is NOT a case of trying to be rude. It's just being too.....clumsy? in the interaction. My husband frequently has to explain to me why something I've said is easily misconstrued even though I can't see how on earth it could possibly mean anything insulting and I'm very genuine in my interest...it's just I want to know..to understand EVERYTHING and I'm not very good at seeing the line where my questioning may become a problem. I also don't realize easily how what I've said can be insensitive because it's a perfectly logical conclusion or question and it's very difficult for me to see the more emotional side of it.
 
teamint said:
How about this: if we say (and I am not saying I believe it, but it does seem to be a common belief, as I have recently learned here)

1. Hearing people can not understand Deaf people because they cannot 'walk a mile in their shoes' and be Deaf.

2. And, likewise, Deaf people must not be able to understand Hearing people because they, too, can not 'walk a mile' and be Hearing.

Then, how can the cultures hope to work together for mutual betterment?
Click to expand...

I've been looking at your post history to get a read on you. I see that you're a doctor and your spouse has progressive hearing loss. and you're here to learn something about deaf people & deaf culture - medically, culturally, socially.

so you ask.... how can the cultures hope to work together for mutual betterment. simple - people are people. you need to approach with respect and humility. the reason why you're facing with hostility instead of getting an aloha-style welcome is because you're a man of science and medicine. it's in your nature to apply a scientific method on something you don't know in order to learn/understand it.

scientific-method-17.jpg


that's not how you should approach to any culture. not everything about culture can be answered when asked why. sometimes it's just the way is and how it is. sometimes you just gotta walk a mile in our shoes to truly understand it. sometimes you just gotta restrain yourself and let it be despite of your noble intention.
 
Jalestra said:
If I am correct, then you probably frequently find yourself having insulted people and then be genuinely confused on why they got so angry and unable to find ANY reason why they COULD be angry. It happens VERY frequently to me.

Guys, if this is the case it truly is NOT a case of trying to be rude. It's just being too.....clumsy? in the interaction. My husband frequently has to explain to me why something I've said is easily misconstrued even though I can't see how on earth it could possibly mean anything insulting and I'm very genuine in my interest...it's just I want to know..to understand EVERYTHING and I'm not very good at seeing the line where my questioning may become a problem. I also don't realize easily how what I've said can be insensitive because it's a perfectly logical conclusion or question and it's very difficult for me to see the more emotional side of it.
Click to expand...

Believe it or not- or maybe it is easy to believe- this describes me, too. I think it definitely has to do with functioning more on the logic side than the emotion side of things. This has its good and bad sides. Others have noticed that I do not call people names even when I disagree with them quite strongly. This is why. Name calling is an emotional response, and I tend to be incapable of feeling emotional about discussions with strangers on the internet. But I also do not notice when my comments might make somebody else feel backed into a wall and emotional.

In my experience, it also has something to do with where you fall in the MyersBrigg personality assessment. INTPs are not common, and generally not popular. They get misunderstood a lot and they don't know why.

It can also be an aspie (aspberger) trait, or at least fall in the aspie spectrum.

I understand what Teamint is trying to do. I am just not sure there are enough people of his personality type for his effort to be successful.
 
teamint said:
How about this: if we say (and I am not saying I believe it, but it does seem to be a common belief, as I have recently learned here)

1. Hearing people can not understand Deaf people because they cannot 'walk a mile in their shoes' and be Deaf.

2. And, likewise, Deaf people must not be able to understand Hearing people because they, too, can not 'walk a mile' and be Hearing.

Then, how can the cultures hope to work together for mutual betterment?
Click to expand...

There are quite a few of us who have been both hearing, hard of hearing and deaf. Therefore we have walked in all the shoes.

Also, as to the name of this thread. I do not wrestle with Angels, I have too much respect for them, I do however wrestle with Demons daily.
 
Jiro said:
I've been looking at your post history to get a read on you. I see that you're a doctor and your spouse has progressive hearing loss. and you're here to learn something about deaf people & deaf culture - medically, culturally, socially.

so you ask.... how can the cultures hope to work together for mutual betterment. simple - people are people. you need to approach with respect and humility. the reason why you're facing with hostility instead of getting an aloha-style welcome is because you're a man of science and medicine. it's in your nature to apply a scientific method on something you don't know in order to learn/understand it.

scientific-method-17.jpg


that's not how you should approach to any culture. not everything about culture can be answered when asked why. sometimes it's just the way is and how it is. sometimes you just gotta walk a mile in our shoes to truly understand it. sometimes you just gotta restrain yourself and let it be despite of your noble intention.
Click to expand...

That's what I told him in a simple suggestion.
 
2. And, likewise, Deaf people must not be able to understand Hearing people because they, too, can not 'walk a mile' and be Hearing.
Click to expand...
Far too black and white. There are a lot of late deafened people on AD who have experienced both worlds.

And no matter how much a part of their own culture deaf or hearing people are immersed in, there is no such thing as no connection between the two cultures.
 
Jiro said:
then you need to ask right questions and approach with humility.


i'm curious - what is the extent of your spouse's experience with deaf culture? does she know ASL?
Click to expand...

Same here. i am curious about the spouse's experience with deaf culture that helps me to see why teamit is doing it.
 
Grayma said:
..... But I also do not notice when my comments might make somebody else feel backed into a wall and emotional.
......

I understand what Teamint is trying to do. I am just not sure there are enough people of his personality type for his effort to be successful.
Click to expand...

Actually, compared to some other members here, your responses are very 'professional' and to the point.

Because I have had to endure a wide range of humiliation/persecution/mocking for many years, as I live & work in the hearing world, it takes some real restraint on my part to keep my emotions under control when a hearing person implies that it is just a 'feeling' on my part that I am being singled out because of my deafness. I try to reason with people, and have learned long ago that once you realize you are not getting anywhere with someone who is difficult, the best thing to do is to walk away. Any further action such as name calling, etc, is futile at best.
 
Frisky Feline said:
Same here. i am curious about the spouse's experience with deaf culture that helps me to see why teamit is doing it.
Click to expand...

Or, why is his spouse not the one to sign up and learn about what it is like to be deaf?
 
teamint said:
How about this: if we say (and I am not saying I believe it, but it does seem to be a common belief, as I have recently learned here)

1. Hearing people can not understand Deaf people because they cannot 'walk a mile in their shoes' and be Deaf.

2. And, likewise, Deaf people must not be able to understand Hearing people because they, too, can not 'walk a mile' and be Hearing.

Then, how can the cultures hope to work together for mutual betterment?
Click to expand...
Where is option 3? I have been both. Amazing how perspective changes when you jump the chasm from hearing to deaf.

Second, I am always humored by educated people that want to understand something, then turn around and use their educated writing skills to belittle posters that might not have the same writing level. Does this produce anything, other than a smirk that crosses your face?

One last thing; why do these college-produced brilliant minds spend time trying to educate us? I deal with another one in a different forum, and it ends up being a showcase for their massive pile of "paid for" educational prowess. How can that compare to "living it" education? How is a college degree equal to a life-long experience? How many college credits equal 10 years of living deaf?
 
Grayma said:
Believe it or not- or maybe it is easy to believe- this describes me, too. I think it definitely has to do with functioning more on the logic side than the emotion side of things. This has its good and bad sides. Others have noticed that I do not call people names even when I disagree with them quite strongly. This is why. Name calling is an emotional response, and I tend to be incapable of feeling emotional about discussions with strangers on the internet. But I also do not notice when my comments might make somebody else feel backed into a wall and emotional.

In my experience, it also has something to do with where you fall in the MyersBrigg personality assessment. INTPs are not common, and generally not popular. They get misunderstood a lot and they don't know why.

It can also be an aspie (aspberger) trait, or at least fall in the aspie spectrum.

I understand what Teamint is trying to do. I am just not sure there are enough people of his personality type for his effort to be successful.
Click to expand...

I'm an INTP too, I didn't consider that. I just know my type and what other people have similar personalities. I should read more on it.

I've always wondered if it was an aspie trait as well. It's one reason why I think I fall on the spectrum, but I figure if I do then I fall on the low end and spend more time dealing with my hearing loss challenges to put any effort into finding out.
 
naisho said:
One slight thing you might not have foreseen in your theory, it's not so black and white as it might seem to be.
You are assuming that most deafies are born and raised straight ASL only, deaf culture from the get-go... That is not the case for the majority these days.
Some deafies are products of hearing world components, as in suddenly lost hearing over time or overnight one day. They can equally represent both worlds. Some of these folks participated in that thread.

This is why complications exist to address the real issue, if you are trying to do so. You have to take into account of everyone's backgrounds.
Click to expand...

That's a great point! I wonder something (and don't y'all start yelling again; I am just wondering)... this group of the later-deafened... it would matter when they were deafened, wouldn't it? I mean if someone is deafened in their teens and makes the transition, where they ever really part of the adult hearing culture? So would it have to be an adult who has deafened? And then, do those people transition into the Deaf culture? Or do they stay deaf in the hearing culture? How is the relationship between the people enrooted in the Deaf culture and those 'late arrivals?'
 
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