Women In Her 20s Ends Her Life By Euthanasia In Holland Due To Mental Suffering

[hoichi]

with all due respect, do excuse me if I go "pfffft" in my answer

your excused...
(puffs fat joint....)

no, of course is not. it's at the moment absolute. at some point, it could be subject to change. but may I point out nothing in life
is "absolute" forever. not only in medicine,
but in every living instance. lots of things changed since humans exist.

your the one who brought the absulute intot his. you even used abolute ethics..
so if their is no abosklute what is abolute ethics then?
some term you cooked up for the thread?

well, but what you just wrote shows me the exact opposite..

pls demonstrate how thank you.

it shows me you either barely grasp the problem, ..

how does it show you? pls qoute me here i want to see how you are thinking so we can further the discussion

or don't care in your hate for authority. you do not present nor offer any other reasonable alternative solution to the problem, ..

i have certainly offered an alternative to .gov cabals of doctors offing people. deemed by what ever measure incurable.

read my posts again if you have missed it. thank you

instead what you do - you propose to dump the responsibility on the very those
who don't want to deal with it in the first place
Sorry, but somebody has to take responsibility for those sick people who do not want to deal with it themselves,
or are incapable to deal with it themselves.
instead what are you proposing is like "your car is broken? don't take it to the mechanic - he or she is a 'cabal'
who will only enslave you, cheat you, rip you of your money.

dump what responsilbility? offing themselves?
yeah i admit, im the first guy to state, its YOUR body, YOUR life. YOU decide. and if thats what you wish YOU do it. i have even offered an alternative to your .gov cabal nightmare..

The doctors and government in the past made mistakes, true. so did you. so did everybody. people learn from mistakes, sadly.
but also people fix mistakes, too.

people learn from mistakes indeed. ther jews were deemed incuruble too rememeber? most Deaf too..

you have better "tip" for those who want to die yet are afraid of dying in pain or worse, end up not dying but living as vegetable for the next 20, 30 years - I am all ears..

if they are living as a vegitibe then how can they decide? this thread wasnt about a vegitible. it was about a girl who was deemed incurable, from what exact illness with no cure is at this point anybodies guess

I believe if I am sick, particularly mentally, I am better of listening to a doctor than you./QUOTE]
great news...

so, in your opinion there is no difference between hallucinating bipolar, hallucinating schizophrenic, manic depressive, PTSD, postnatal depression, paranoic - they are all capable of making decision for themselves?
A 17 y.o depressed suicidal teen is as capable as 22y o systematically traumatically sex. abused and as 40 y.o. paranoic schizophrenic?..

not at all.
but im curious
how many of the above disorders you posted is curable?

Interesting view./QUOTE]
you dont get out much...

Yeeeep.....
although I thought these were sick people and sick people sometimes decide to do things they really don't want to do,
but who am I to say ...


Fuzzy

so hold on a minute here.
so sick people sometimes decide to do things they dont want to do...
yet
the docs somehow someway seem to posses some.....something.to make sure the choice is real...via true conviction...or whatever
is that you belive?

 

[Audiofuzzy]

↑one more thing:

Audiofuzzy: otherwise, she is free to off herself anytime. no doctor will hover over her 24/7 yelling "no, you are forbidden!" - mind you..
Hoichi: shes already long done..but a good tip for others. indeed

I don't know what you understood, Hoichi, but I used past tense in regards to your present comment about
how she should have had a freedom of choice.
So I simply pointed out that she in fact had exactly that - all that time, even under all her doctors care, she also could have committed suicide on her own any time - since the doctors are incapable of monitoring anyone 24/7.

Grammatically, just because I am using a present time in a sentence doesn't mean subject is alive anymore.
just a figure of speech.

Fuzzy

 

[hoichi]

And I have addressed all your pertaining to the subject comments point by point.
if you have a question - ask precisely instead of repeating vague accusations.

no you have not.

you stated this

Don't you think that by criticizing or judging someone or something you..?.

to which then asked you. point blank and very clear.

"which person have i critized? which person have i judged? what subject exactly?"

dont claim the above if you cant back it up. thank you.


then you stated

on the whole she was suffering from incurable, debilitating, traumatic, downhill trauma, and that's what killed he

to which i asked YOU for clarification,

"what incurable..disorder exactly was she suffering from? is "downhill trauma" the actual name?"

wich you have not provided.

 

[hoichi]

who the hell are you to think they aren't?
explain.

Fuzzy

someone who holds freedom dear...

 

[hoichi]

↑one more thing:

Audiofuzzy: otherwise, she is free to off herself anytime. no doctor will hover over her 24/7 yelling "no, you are forbidden!" - mind you..
Hoichi: shes already long done..but a good tip for others. indeed

I don't know what you understood, Hoichi, but I used past tense in regards to your present comment about
how she should have had a freedom of choice.
So I simply pointed out that she in fact had exactly that - all that time, even under all her doctors care, she also could have committed suicide on her own any time - since the doctors are incapable of monitoring anyone 24/7.

Grammatically, just because I am using a present time in a sentence doesn't mean subject is alive anymore.
just a figure of speech.

Fuzzy

alright

 

[whatdidyousay!]

But you see, that is not the reason to grant the wish of euthanasia.
you see, loneliness is fixable, if only people took it seriously and did something so those people stopped being lonely in the first place.
if they got some company they would start feel better on the whole. old age wouldn't bother them so much, they would stop feeling so sick once their overall emotional state improved.
the sad fact is, those lonely seniors are being left alone.
If we were to grant every heartbreaking wish for euthanasia - people would be dying by millions. it can't be like that.

However, IMO what really is despicable, is keeping dying people on life support system for years or keep reanimating very sick,
dying people over and over. most of their organs had failed, they beg to be put out of their misery,
but because the family insist "to do everything to save them" - they continue to live in terrible pain,
with an inevitable outcome sooner or later - death.

Please, please read this amazing memoir https://www.amazon.ca/Nurses-Story-Tilda-Shalof/dp/0771080875
that book changed my outlook on CPR and "save at all cost".

Fuzzy

They were old and sick too and that was not fixable I took care of people in their 80's to 100's . I am not talking about having a bad cold ,I mean they had were ill
and never getting better. They could had been a room full of people everyday and that would not had cured them . It cheaper to have people stay in their homes and have a health aide and visiting nurse caring for them than going to a nursing home and some people wanted to stay in their homes as long as they could . Health aides and visiting nurses allow people to do this . I had clients on their death bed and still living at home they were DNR and didn't want to be fixed . I feel a person has a right to
decide how long they live when they're old and sick in pain and their family no longer come to see them . I had a client that was very lonely and he was waiting for
Easter so he would get a visit from his priest , the priest saw my client on holidays . My client never got his visit b/c he dies before Easter and when I saw his
obituary in the newspaper it said he had a lot of family that lived near him . None of them went to see him , he knew he was dying ,he told me he didn't have long
to live. It was a very sad case , he was so lonely and dying yet his family didn't visit him. You have to realize a lot my clients outlived their spouses and they were lonely for this reason and no one could take their place .

 

[Audiofuzzy]

your excused...
(puffs fat joint....)


your the one who brought the absulute intot his. you even used abolute ethics..
so if their is no abosklute what is abolute ethics then?
some term you cooked up for the thread?

you are grasping at straws here. this is what I said:
it's for the doctors the need to establish clear and absolute ethical and medical guidelines for assisted suicide,
which simply means who qualifies for euthanasia and who doesn't. of course guidelines for deciding who qualifies or not must be clear and absolute. that doesn't mean in 5, 10 25 years from now they won't change. you asked, I answered.
don't make mountain from molehill.

pls demonstrate how thank you.

would you leave vaccinating decisions to a child? would you leave nutritional decisions to a child? would you leave banking decisions to a child? would you leave any serious, life impacting decision to a child?
by the same token, why would you leave health decisions to a mentally challenged person?

how does it show you? pls qoute me here i want to see how you are thinking so we can further the discussion

Its ominous that a cabal of doctors csme to the conclusion there was no hope for recovery for her from mental illness. In her 20s...
i find it hideous that the gov and a cabal of white coated docs control who goes...who even more ominous who gets to stay
She was showing sign of improvement. yet she was offed anyway
I support what people wish to do with their own bodies and lives period
Go off yourself. If thats what u want.

it continues to the tunes on and on.

i have certainly offered an alternative to .gov cabals of doctors offing people. deemed by what ever measure incurable.

your alternative is, in other words, simply "devil may care".

read my posts again if you have missed it. thank you

I did, and do. your welcome

dump what responsilbility? offing themselves?

nope. offing themselves if the end symptom, not the disease or disorder.
you are dumping the responsibility of diagnosing and treating the disorder on the patients themselves who are simply incapable
of doing so.

yeah i admit, im the first guy to state, its YOUR body, YOUR life. YOU decide.

your SICK body, your SICK life, you decide in a moment of WEAKNESS. you need HELP...

and if thats what you wish YOU do it. i have even offered an alternative to your .gov cabal nightmare..

... and if the the disorder turned out to have been treatable, so the deed was tragic mistake ???

people learn from mistakes indeed. ther jews were deemed incuruble too rememeber? most Deaf too..

achhh, that's where the shoe pinches.... but now is not the same as it was 25 years ago, no?
btw Jews weren't deemed "incurable" they were just hated for being Jews.
and you know, even if I agree with you many past medical mistakes were horrible, people have more strict guidelines today,
are more careful. and while I have no illusion mistakes will still happen,
I do believe "the cabal" is now more experienced and have stronger ethics than before.

if they are living as a vegitibe then how can they decide? this thread wasnt about a vegitible. it was about a girl who was deemed incurable, from what exact illness with no cure is at this point anybodies guess

that wasn't related to our discussion.

Fuzzy

 

[Audiofuzzy]

Why not? Is it not their life and choice to determine when they are done living?


*sigh*... I just explained, but, okay.

You have to keep in mind euthanasia is PERMANENT.
Once done, you can not un-done it.
And it affect not only the patient who wish to die but his entire family, his friends, his animals even.
Therefore, you can't just grant the deadly wish to every Bob, Jane, Harry, Sharon who happens to have a blue day today.
"Doctor, I am sick and tired of my life alone, I feel old and unloved, please get me off this planet"
"Oh, sure, here, sit in that chair and relax, think happy thoughts"

come on! did somebody mistook human life with pets and physicians with veterinary clinic?

I understand having pity for people who want to die, but to say that they cannot or should not because it offends society is saying that society knows better than the individual what will make then happy.

It was never a matter of offending society, it was a matter of complicated medical ethics and medical guidelines why would this disease/disorder/condition qualify while the other not. some people simply do not qualify.

Sometimes, death is the answer for them and they are happy with it... sometime they realize at the last second that it is not...

That's exactly why this is such a complicated matter and someone has to be highly qualified to be able to assess such matters.

regardless people should have the ability and control over their own life and death... not society, not the government, and not their family...

people should have certain ability to control their own life and death but as you pointed earlier they do make mistakes.
certainly being in unstable emotional state is NOT the good time for making such an important decision.
that is why there is an independent panel of qualified professionals to decide for those people and thank God for that.

 

[Audiofuzzy]

[QUOTE="hoichi, post: 2473429, member: 72107"

to which then asked you. point blank and very clear.
"which person have i critized? which person have i judged? what subject exactly?"

and I said you said:
- Its ominous that a cabal of doctors csme to the conclusion there was no hope for recovery for her from mental illness
As for me
i find it hideous that the gov and a cabal of white coated docs control who goes...who even more ominous who gets to stay
Thats very very creepy
and it goes on and on throughout the entire thread. on the subject of deciding that the 20 y.o. woman qualified for euthanasia.
you don't have to judge/ criticize one particular person to be judgmental/ critical of the subject.

dont claim the above if you cant back it up. thank you.

I just did - your welcome

then you stated
to which i asked YOU for clarification,
"what incurable..disorder exactly was she suffering from? is "downhill trauma" the actual name?"
wich you have not provided.

why should I? it's wasting my time. it is clearly stated in the article. read for yourself.
Or is it that you don't understand it? then I'll be more than happy to explain. [/QUOTE]

Fuzzy

ps - could you install spellchecker please? sometimes I have hard time guessing what do you mean. thx

 

[Audiofuzzy]

This is bad news.

* Victims of abuse should kill themselves.
* Doctors no longer follow "first, do no harm."
* She was too depressed to live but it said that she was not under major depression when she made her decision to die.
* Yes, she suffered for 20 years but she had a possible 60 years ahead of her that could have changed for the good.
* Maybe she had no hope because doctors kept telling her that she was "hopeless."
* The solution to PTSD is suicide (too many of our military veterans already follow this belief).
* One less patient that national medical "care" doesn't have to support.

No Reba it is not.
I understand your religious concerns, but you too, must understand even God gave us free will to do as we wish,
and only we may decide how to use it.
btw I feel the way you pointed out the arguments is very manipulative.
*Victims of abuse do not qualify - just because someone is victim of abuse is not enough, period.
* Doctors no longer... Assisting with peaceful, painless passing away, particularly when death is anyway imminent is most definitely
"first, do not harm".
*She was too depressed to live but..... - maybe you don't understand Reba, but that was precisely the right moment for such decision because if she wanted to die at her best, when else if not then could you be sure she really knew what she wanted? at her worst?
*Maybe she had no hope... or being a victim of abuse and suffering from debilitating PTSD, severe anorexia, chronic depression, suicidal mood swings, self harming, obsessions, compulsions, hallucinations, had physical difficulties and was almost entirely bedridden - maybe she knew what and how she felt???
nowhere in the article says the doctors were saying to the woman's face her case is hopeless.
is one thing to say in general "consultants told her case is hopeless" another "consultants told the woman her case is hopeless" - we don't know what happened, so please do not fabulate.
* The solution to PTSD is suicide (too many of our military veterans already follow this belief).
- please elaborate. you make it sound like doctors advise veterans to commit euthanasia or suicide.
just because many veterans won't reach, doesn't mean what you say is true.
* One less patient that national medical "care" doesn't have to support.
If that was true, euthanasia would be readily offered as an option for those with terminal illnesses, on life support, ER, ICU,
mental diseases, wherever and whenever there is a chance to shorten life.

Fuzzy

 

[hoichi]

you are grasping at straws here. this is what I said:

if its straws im grassping they are YOUR words. as ive qouted. your straws
i wont grasp at your straws if you dont post them
deal?
your the one who brought the absolute or a absolute into this. i was mearly letting you lead the dance.

it's for the doctors the need to establish clear and absolute ethical and medical guidelines for assisted suicide,
which simply means who qualifies for euthanasia and who doesn't. of course guidelines for deciding who qualifies or not must be clear and absolute. that doesn't mean in 5, 10 25 years from now they won't change. you asked, I answered.
don't make mountain from molehill

no mountain. no molehill

would you leave vaccinating decisions to a child? would you leave nutritional decisions to a child? would you leave banking decisions to a child? would you leave any serious, life impacting decision to a child?
by the same token, why would you leave health decisions to a mentally challenged person?

did this girl who was mentally ill make the decision to end her life or did others do it for her?

if you claim she did, then you are stating mentally challanged people can make the choice to end their lifes.
if you belive that then i ask you to clarify your last line regarding why you would leave health decisions to a mentally challanged person?

we are not dsicussing children here, though soon im sure they too will be getting offed. to save loot so on. what we are disussing is adults who are deemed mentally ill making the desision to off themselevs with state sanction and aid.


which was not the first goal line to the agenda. the goal post moved from terminal illness such as cancer now to a wide avriety of who knows what illnesses. with who knows what cures if any with who knows what treatments..

your alternative is, in other words, simply "devil may care".
/QUOTE]

no its not, you clearly have difficulty in english reading comprhension.
pls re read my posts, you can start with my responses to jeize if you cant seem to track it down
thank you

nope. offing themselves if the end symptom, not the disease or disorder.
you are dumping the responsibility of diagnosing and treating the disorder on the patients themselves who are simply incapable
of doing so./QUOTE]

i have done no such thing
no place have i stated the patient should diagnose themselves, or even treat themselves.
what i have stated is i dont think doctors should be in the suicide bussiness. nor do i hold suicide to be a "treatment" in the proper sence of the term.is that whats its termed now?

so your now using a rather large brush to brand a huge section of the populace as incapable.
was this gil, the op incapable of hmaking her decision? if so then it stands the docs made it for her
correct?

your SICK body, your SICK life, you decide in a moment of WEAKNESS. you need HELP..../QUOTE]
how do you know its a moment of weakness? where are you getting your assumptions?
weakness in what exactly? actually deciding to? or seeking doctors to do it for you

achhh, that's where the shoe pinches.... but now is not the same as it was 25 years ago, no?..../QUOTE]
are we so much more enlightened now?
you beleieve that do yopu?
progress is a funny thing...
mmmmm

btw Jews weren't deemed "incurable" they were just hated for being Jews.

i was using that to illustrate a point. but if you want to get picky, their was worek done and even papers written in the third riech on the possiblility of curing the jewish plm, both by way of forced re location, to how long it would take to out bread jewsish blood by generation, to obviously the then secret mechinations of the final solution. jews were viewed a plm to be cured, as the term was used, in political literature. of the time

but we both know those details are not what we are disucssing. nor are the details important to the overall point.

and you know, even if I agree with you many past medical mistakes were horrible, people have more strict guidelines today,
are more careful. and while I have no illusion mistakes will still happen,
I do believe "the cabal" is now more experienced and have stronger ethics than before.

well. mistakes will happen...
yes
..
alright

"sorry your daughter didnt want to go, but the wrong papers where filled and well,,,she was crazy anyway save society a bunch of loot..
suck it up, one for the team eh"

i can see all sort so mistakes..

that wasn't related to our discussion

your the one who brought bieng a vegitible into this. not me.
so if its not related to this discussion why did you even brign it into this discussion?

 

[hoichi]

and I said you said:
- Its ominous that a cabal of doctors csme to the conclusion there was no hope for recovery for her from mental illness
As for me
i find it hideous that the gov and a cabal of white coated docs control who goes...who even more ominous who gets to stay
Thats very very creepy
and it goes on and on throughout the entire thread. on the subject of deciding that the 20 y.o. woman qualified for euthanasia.
you don't have to judge/ criticize one particular person to be judgmental/ critical of the subject.

you originaly did not state i was judgmental of a given topic. you used words such as person in your accusations. i have judged no person here. a cabal is not a person, i am critical with good reason of the topic. which is a big difference on bieng judgmental.

I just did - your welcome

no you failed. but an a for effort. try again..

why should I? it's wasting my time. it is clearly stated in the article. read for yourself.
Or is it that you don't understand it? then I'll be more than happy to explain.

well if you dont want to back your cvlaims up, nor have a discussion then by all means dont.
ive read the article. but im chatting with you.[/QUOTE]

 

[Audiofuzzy]

Foxrac: I wish that assisted suicide is legal and option in Alabama so I don't want to suffer anymore.
Reba: Suicide is not the solution to suffering. Don't give up. (what is?)
Hoichi: cmon man. your entire life is ahead of you. dont let anyone tell you different.
(what life? or, more precisely - what kind of life? and who is telling whom different?)

Ok, I am not the author but my question to Reba and Hoichi is this: - have you guys dedicated any amount of time to think about Foxrac and his situation, what possibly motivates him, what is the cause of his severe suffering, suffering to the point of wanting to end his life?
In other words, guys, have it even crossed your minds to consider what it like to be Foxrac?
what exactly did you do beside offers of these empty, placating words?

Fuzzy

 

[Reba]

Foxrac: I wish that assisted suicide is legal and option in Alabama so I don't want to suffer anymore.
Reba: Suicide is not the solution to suffering. Don't give up. (what is?). . .

For each person it's different.

Ok, I am not the author but my question to Reba and Hoichi is this: - have you guys dedicated any amount of time to think about Foxrac and his situation, what possibly motivates him, what is the cause of his severe suffering, suffering to the point of wanting to end his life?
In other words, guys, have it even crossed your minds to consider what it like to be Foxrac?
what exactly did you do beside offers of these empty, placating words?

Foxrac and I communicate privately with each other. What's private, is private. You're seeing only my public responses.

 

[Audiofuzzy]

if its straws im grassping they are YOUR words.

yes, I can see - being incapable to stand on your own, as usual you are turning attention away from you
to instead use me as your crutches. trickster...

as ive qouted. your straws
i wont grasp at your straws if you dont post them
deal?

LOL how about be a man and fight your own fights?

your the one who brought the absolute or a absolute into this. i was mearly letting you lead the dance.
sadly, you can't dance let alone lead. and I explained what absolute mean, so ...

did this girl who was mentally ill make the decision to end her life or did others do it for her?

did she want to die? did she want to die? did she want die? did she want to die?
and did she ??? did she? did she? did she?

if you claim she did, then you are stating mentally challanged people can make the choice to end their lifes.

you are confusing couple of different things. it is you who think that: "your life, your body, your decision"-
- I say some people are mentally challenged and can't do that by themselves..
but that particular woman wasn't mentally challenged. that is why the doctors assessed her first and then established she is capable of making decision herself. that's what the article said:
The patient, they said, was 'totally competent' and there was 'no major depression or other mood disorder which affected her thinking'.

if you belive that then i ask you to clarify your last line regarding why you would leave health decisions to a mentally challanged person?
I do not, I leave it to doctors, you do - remember??:
yeah i admit, im the first guy to state, its YOUR body, YOUR life. YOU decide.


we are not dsicussing children here, though soon im sure they too will be getting offed. to save loot so on. what we are disussing is adults who are deemed mentally ill making the desision to off themselevs with state sanction and aid.

it was a comparison, surely you could seen that? or, as usual, once again you ran away from an argument ....

which was not the first goal line to the agenda. the goal post moved from terminal illness such as cancer now to a wide avriety of who knows what illnesses. with who knows what cures if any with who knows what treatments..

I am not sure I understand, sweetheart?? if do, then if I remember correctly, not all cancers qualified and qualify for euthanasia.
like I've said before it is very complicated process so it's not like "cancer" - ok, accepted. some cancer have quite good curability rate,
some not. it's not black and white matter.

Fuzzy

 

[Audiofuzzy]

For each person it's different.


Foxrac and I communicate privately with each other. What's private, is private. You're seeing only my public responses.

That's fine, still the question remain - are you capable to walk a mile in other person shoes?

It's natural human survivor instinct to save another dying human.
Dying prematurely is against nature. and I understand that.
But, under certain circumstances, some people just want to go. need to go. for the rest of us, it's hard to reconcile this
with our instinctual need for saving from death.
yet sometimes we need let go. it so much harder done that said.

Fuzzy

 

[Audiofuzzy]

you originaly did not state i was judgmental of a given topic. you used words such as person in your accusations. i have judged no person here. a cabal is not a person, i am critical with good reason of the topic. which is a big difference on bieng judgmental.

now you are backpedaling
no you failed. but an a for effort. try again..

then I am sorry, but your vague and cryptic way of speaking make it impossible of knowing what exactly you want to know...

well if you dont want to back your cvlaims up, nor have a discussion then by all means dont.
ive read the article. but im chatting with you

ok, sure. it's there:

doctors and psychiatrists decided that her post-traumatic stress disorder and other conditions were incurable.
The papers said that the woman, who was killed last year, had post-traumatic stress disorder that was resistant to treatment. Her condition included severe anorexia, chronic depression and suicidal mood swings, tendencies to self-harm, hallucinations, obsessions and compulsions.
She also had physical difficulties and was almost entirely bedridden. Her psychiatrist said 'there was no prospect or hope for her. The patient experienced her suffering as unbearable'.
However, the papers also disclosed that two years before her death the woman's doctors called for a second opinion, and on the advice of the new doctors she had an intensive course of trauma therapy. 'This treatment was temporarily partially successful,' the documents said
The consultants also said that despite her 'intolerable' physical and mental suffering, chronic depression and mood swings, she was entirely competent to make the decision to take her own life.
The patient, they said, was 'totally competent' and there was 'no major depression or other mood disorder which affected her thinking'. A final GP's report approved the 'termination of life' order and the woman was killed by an injection of lethal drugs, the report said.
(above from the article)

The woman, despite temporarily partial improvement continued to suffer, was bedridden almost all the time due to depression.
but at the time of making her decision she was at her "best", however despite that her "best" meant she still suffered to the point of not wanting to live. her condition was incurable. what the doctors needed to establish, was she or wasn't she to decide for herself?

My "on the side" musing -what the article doesn't say, what's interesting, mental disorders manifest at about that age -
Prevalence and Age-of-Onset of Mental Disorders
Unlike most disabling physical diseases, mental illness begins very early in life. Half of all lifetime cases begin by age 14; three quarters have begun by age 24.
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/news/scienc...ss-exacts-heavy-toll-beginning-in-youth.shtml

she could have had this anyway. the abuse could have had only deepen something she already had.
it's pure speculation on my part, something the article did not said because it was simply irrelevant to the story.
but if you add this, and the doctors surely knew and considered that, it's a whole 'nother kettle of fish, get it?

 

[Reba]

That's fine, still the question remain - are you capable to walk a mile in other person shoes?

You don't know what I'm capable of doing; let's just leave it at that.

 

[Calvin]

I'm going to stop this thread... I'm going to address something in a new thread tonight.

Thanks.