why not aspire to speak?

CJB said:
I feel like this question was carefully crafted to make anyone who disagrees with it seem cold and heartless. Kind of like that "Do You Cherish Your Hearing?" thread that popped up sometime ago.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to speak and write well.

There is something wrong with expecting all d/Deaf people to want to speak and write well, and to judge a Deaf person's intelligence based on their speech and writing abilities, and to view speech and writing as above signing.

There's nothing wrong with acknowledging speech and writing are useful skills in a hearing world.

There is something wrong with assuming all Deaf people aspire to be as hearing as possible or believing that all Deaf people should aspire to be as hearing as possible.
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It was crafted that way... so I decided to go in-depth of the history of AGB instead, since a lot of deafies don't have a problem with oral skils-- but rather the background of the organizations in question.
 
souggy said:
It was crafted that way... so I decided to go in-depth of the history of AGB instead, since a lot of deafies don't have a problem with oral skils-- but rather the background of the organizations in question.
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I don't support AGB cause of it's audist history. I'd rather support NAD or Hands & Voices that support signing for more reasons than just gaining more members.
 
Babyblue said:
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Nothing wrong with learning to speak. I The oral only approach is what I have a problem with. and depriving deaf children from ASL.
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I think a certain poster (not nextrox) has his avatar saying children can learn to speak as an unsuccessful attempt to anger deaf. We are not against speech. Just oralism as the only way to go.
 
CJB said:
I feel like this question was carefully crafted to make anyone who disagrees with it seem cold and heartless. Kind of like that "Do You Cherish Your Hearing?" thread that popped up sometime ago.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to speak and write well.

There is something wrong with expecting all d/Deaf people to want to speak and write well, and to judge a Deaf person's intelligence based on their speech and writing abilities, and to view speech and writing as above signing.

There's nothing wrong with acknowledging speech and writing are useful skills in a hearing world.

There is something wrong with assuming all Deaf people aspire to be as hearing as possible or believing that all Deaf people should aspire to be as hearing as possible.
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I agree. When I think back to my childhood/life as the only deaf member of a large family, there had to be "tweaking" among the hearing members to sort of have the "deaf mentality", so they were affected as well by my deafness. All in all, we weren't given an impossible task but given just enough to successfully make it through. Thank goodness for empathy.
 
I've been deaf for 50 years, and my speech is still intact, and I lip read. ASL is part of my life on a daily basis also. Both are important to me. And whenever there is a need for me to make a speech, I practice it beforehand. If I would have stopped talking, there is no way I would remember how to speak or pronounce the words correctly.
If I were born deaf, I'm sure there would be many problems speaking correctly. But for those who are late deafned, as long as they keep talking, their speech should remain intact. I prefer SEE (signing exact English), same as for writing.
Once, a friend of mine (deaf) told me in ASL...."I take bank."...and I misunderstood, thinking he meant he was gonna "rob the bank." I do realize it takes more time to sign/spell "the, of, is, to, and, etc."....but I do it anyway. My writing skills would not be as good as they are today, if I had signed ASL and not SEE.
 
I rather use cued speech than SEE. SEE to me is like Spanglish

Sometimes people tend to look at ASL in a English prospective. If you try to translate Japanese words to english using the converter off of the internet, it would look just as silly. That's why I say people tend to think ASL is a visual aid for English rather than a language. If anything a visual aid, it would be cued speech.
 
Babyblue said:
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Nothing wrong with learning to speak. I The oral only approach is what I have a problem with. and depriving deaf children from ASL.
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My views exactly *thumbs up*
 
rockin'robin said:
I've been deaf for 50 years, and my speech is still intact, and I lip read. ASL is part of my life on a daily basis also. Both are important to me. And whenever there is a need for me to make a speech, I practice it beforehand. If I would have stopped talking, there is no way I would remember how to speak or pronounce the words correctly.
If I were born deaf, I'm sure there would be many problems speaking correctly. But for those who are late deafned, as long as they keep talking, their speech should remain intact. I prefer SEE (signing exact English), same as for writing.
Once, a friend of mine (deaf) told me in ASL...."I take bank."...and I misunderstood, thinking he meant he was gonna "rob the bank." I do realize it takes more time to sign/spell "the, of, is, to, and, etc."....but I do it anyway. My writing skills would not be as good as they are today, if I had signed ASL and not SEE.
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You never know..I have seen some SEE users with poor writing skills and ASL users with excellent writing skills.
 
shel90 said:
You never know..I have seen some SEE users with poor writing skills and ASL users with excellent writing skills.
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it's too bad that we have all kinds of inconsistencies because each of us keep saying "I know a deafie who is....... and can........ well." or "I know a deafie who is....... and can't........ well."

It shows that whatever we're doing now isn't working and fair for all deafies. We all need to stick with what works the best and make it a federal standard that all hearing students have.
 
Jiro said:
it's too bad that we have all kinds of inconsistencies because each of us keep saying "I know a deafie who is....... and can........ well." or "I know a deafie who is....... and can't........ well."

It shows that whatever we're doing now isn't working and fair for all deafies. We all need to stick with what works the best and make it a federal standard that all hearing students have.
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I am using AD as an example based on what I have seen throughout many posts. I wont name anyone but it was interesting to see the inconsistencies which is why I dont like all those different deaf education philosophies that are out there. Just too much for a small population.
 
shel90 said:
I am using AD as an example based on what I have seen throughout many posts. I wont name anyone but it was interesting to see the inconsistencies which is why I dont like all those different deaf education philosophies that are out there. Just too much for a small population.
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but what DOES make sense for sure is the one that you and Jillio have been fighting about all along. Hopefully the government will listen. sigh...
 
Jiro said:
but what DOES make sense for sure is the one that you and Jillio have been fighting about all along. Hopefully the government will listen. sigh...
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With AGBell having lobbyists and power in the govt sector? Yea, it would be a big battle but it can be done. :)
 
shel90 said:
You never know..I have seen some SEE users with poor writing skills and ASL users with excellent writing skills.
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I am starting to think... those who speak well and write well have a talent for it. I am no different from other deafies, yet a lot of people like to say I am a a stellar speaker... as in "public speaker."

I know a few that are horrible at writing, but has a natural gift for picking up other languages aurally while many people struggle to learn a second or third lanuage. :eek3: Or some that can't pick up a language aurally, but can use a diction reference book quite well. So I wouldn't credit SEE for anything.
 
I'm all for the "whatever works best for the child" approach. The big question here is WHO decides what's best for the child? There are countless stories of decisions made for a child by those who have no idea what's best for the child and, as a result, the child suffers. Parents make decisions based on advice given to them by "professionals" who are firm in their belief that a particular method will work- often to the exclusion of all other methods. These "professionals" need to educate themselves as to what is available and get with the times and update their views on deaf education. Change comes slowly in some areas as we all know.

Having said that, I agree with many here who say that speech is not required to learn reading and writing or any other subject for that matter. There are plenty of deaf professionals who hold PhD degrees and they can neither hear nor speak. Illiteracy has nothing to do with hearing or speech. For a deaf child, learning to COMMUNICATE with the world around him/her is priority numero uno. ASL or any other sign language method is probably the quickest and easiest way for that child to learn how to share thoughts and make their desire known.

Once the foundation for the child's education has been laid- ASL, reading and writing- if the child has any residual hearing it wouldn't be a bad thing to learn the basics of speech and see if it works. But the emphasis should always be on education and communication, not speech.

As for the HA or CI issue, it's an individual thing, like education and communication methods. There's no "one method fits all" here. It's just too bad that the children that are most affected by the decisions made for them have little or no say in it. Just my 2 cents. Ya'll have a nice day, now
 
Lighthouse77 said:
I rather use cued speech than SEE. SEE to me is like Spanglish

Sometimes people tend to look at ASL in a English prospective. If you try to translate Japanese words to english using the converter off of the internet, it would look just as silly. That's why I say people tend to think ASL is a visual aid for English rather than a language. If anything a visual aid, it would be cued speech.
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Just curious. Can cued speech teach English literacy?
 
shel90 said:
You never know..I have seen some SEE users with poor writing skills and ASL users with excellent writing skills.
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My guess is that results will vary depending on many factors which may have nothing to do with the use of ASL vs. SEE.
 
rockdrummer said:
My guess is that results will vary depending on many factors which may have nothing to do with the use of ASL vs. SEE.
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It most likely to do with the child getting a proper model of language while they are young. SEE and Cued speech arent the proper language models like ASL and spoken English are. I prefer to safeguard it for deaf children..expose them to both ASL and spoken English.
 
rockdrummer said:
Just curious. Can cued speech teach English literacy?
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They claim they do. The only person who know about this would be loml but I haven't see him here for awhile.

If it was my deaf child, I would just stick with ASL and spoken language. Afterall, I didn't use SEE or Cued speech to learn how to speak and write as I was an oral-only deaf since birth. But I sure did needed ASL for my own sanity.
 
rockdrummer said:
My guess is that results will vary depending on many factors which may have nothing to do with the use of ASL vs. SEE.
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Take it for what it's worth - I am Deaf, I've been mainstreamed, I've been to the Deaf schools, I have seen it all essentially.

There are some special cases, but as we all know in science they trim out the extreme ends to get the "normal results" in.

But that said -- I do honestly see better English in pure ASL people. Most of my friends are strong ASL users and they have far superior English even when compared to me.

Mister Potts - You all have seen his use of English - He's a dominant SEE user... He is working on converting to ASL because he does see the benefit of using ASL. It's a tough process.

Just saying.
 
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