Whoa!

[Angel]

*sigh*

Here we go again...:roll:


deafbajagal, Thank you for sharing us about your friend's experiences, hope all works out at the end...


Now I'm out of here.

 

[Grummer]

I believe I suggested it earlier, but it sounds suspiciously as if this audi is receiving some form of compensation for referrals to this surgeon. If so, both are in violation of the ethical standards of their professions, and can be brought up on charges.

hmm, could be

and whats more sneaky is that, they could be made harder to proved against, for they may only 'suggest' without actually giving advice, big differences, but similar effects.

 

[Matilda]

Now I'm out of here.

Chicken!

 

[shel90]

Deafbajagal...hope everything will get resolved at the meeting. Good luck!

 

[vallee]

.
The point is - an audiologist had the gall to ignore the parent's answer (which was she needed more time to think things through before making any decisions) and scheduled an appointment with the surgeon. She called this parent and said, "I made an appointment for you to meet with this doctor." The meeting is scheduled for Friday. The parent has asked me to accompany her as a friend (not as a professional in deaf education) to this meeting. You can bet I will be doing a lot of questioning.
as coming.

I am upset because the audiologist is not being ethical - and being pushy towards this child getting a CI. There are valid concerns because this child has a long list of medical problems - some of which may make her an unlikely candidate for a CI. I've been making a lot of inquiries - and several parents of childen with CIs were open to discuss their experiences with this audiologist. It is becoming apparent to me that this audiologist has a history of doing this kind of thing. I cannot wait to meet with her. I can't promise it will be a nice tea party.

The CI surgeons are primarily ENTs. I hope the appointment is more for an exam and less for CIs. My insurance did not allow for me to go to the ENT(CI doctor) without a refer from my primary doctor. Keep us informed.

 

[deafbajagal]

The CI surgeons are primarily ENTs. I hope the appointment is more for an exam and less for CIs. My insurance did not allow for me to go to the ENT(CI doctor) without a refer from my primary doctor. Keep us informed.

It really doesn't matter what the purpose (exam, CI, consultation) of the appointment is - bottom line - the mother should have made that decision and made her own appointment. The audiologist should not have put her in this position.

Who knows? Maybe the child is an excellent candidate for the CI in spite of her medical issues. But now the mother has had a "bad taste" about the CI decision - which is unfair. She should be able to explore all options without pressure from any professionals. Right now she's going through the fresh, raw stages of finding out her daughter is deaf - which is a shock right now. She needs time (as she had said herself) to adjust and to explore the options.

 

[vallee]

It really doesn't matter what the purpose (exam, CI, consultation) of the appointment is - bottom line - the mother should have made that decision and made her own appointment. The audiologist should not have put her in this position.

Who knows? Maybe the child is an excellent candidate for the CI in spite of her medical issues. But now the mother has had a "bad taste" about the CI decision - which is unfair. She should be able to explore all options without pressure from any professionals. Right now she's going through the fresh, raw stages of finding out her daughter is deaf - which is a shock right now. She needs time (as she had said herself) to adjust and to explore the options.

I'm going to take the flip side(not in a negative way). Maybe the audie saw something in the testing that shows something serious. Medically the audie would be unable to handle the situation and would have to refer to a ENT. I keep hoping the audie is not pressuring CIs. Well the appointment is Friday and you will find out then.

Was the child born with some hearing loss or is it sudden deafness?

 

[jillio]

I'm going to take the flip side(not in a negative way). Maybe the audie saw something in the testing that shows something serious. Medically the audie would be unable to handle the situation and would have to refer to a ENT. I keep hoping the audie is not pressuring CIs. Well the appointment is Friday and you will find out then.

Was the child born with some hearing loss or is it sudden deafness?

Audies are not trained to do medical evals. In the vast majority of cases, when there are medical issues, it is the physician that refers to the audi for testing, not vice versa. Physicians are trained to detect the possibility of hearing loss upon examination. However, audies are not trained to detect medical problems upon audiological assessment.

However, lets say, for the ske of discussion, that this was an extremely capable audi who noticed some atypical response patterns that could indicate a medical problem that needed to be addressed by a physician. Then the audi is obligated to state just that to the parent. That she suspects additional health concerns that need to be examined by a physician. Following that statement, she says, I am referring you back to your general physician and will fax him a copy of my findings. I suggest you make an appointment to see him as soon as possible. If a referral to an ENT is necessary, it is the position of the general physician to do so. Particularly in a case of a child with additional health problems, the gewneral physician should be coordinating care between primary health care provider and any specialist to insure an accurate history and record of all treatments and all medications, and to insre that there are no contraindications of the meds/treadment provided by various doctors that may not be aware of all issues.

No matter which way you slant it, this audi was out of line.

 

[jillio]

It really doesn't matter what the purpose (exam, CI, consultation) of the appointment is - bottom line - the mother should have made that decision and made her own appointment. The audiologist should not have put her in this position.

Who knows? Maybe the child is an excellent candidate for the CI in spite of her medical issues. But now the mother has had a "bad taste" about the CI decision - which is unfair. She should be able to explore all options without pressure from any professionals. Right now she's going through the fresh, raw stages of finding out her daughter is deaf - which is a shock right now. She needs time (as she had said herself) to adjust and to explore the options.

Exactly!! And not only does the mother have the right to decide if and when her daughter is scheduled for a CI eval, she has the right to choose the surgeon she wishes.

I anxiously await details on how the meeting went, deafbajagal! I know you will eloquently remind her of professional boundaries and scope of practice.

 

[Brian]

Wow! The lady must be very young and inexperienced.

 

[MomToDeafChild]

Isn't it possible that the audi thought she was helping out a very confused and upset mom by making an appointment with the ENT for her, rather than there being some self-serving ulterior motive for it? The first thing we did when we suspected our daughter was deaf was see a local audi, and the very next thing was to see a local ENT (who was referred to us by the local audi). Neither of these were affiliated with a CI center, so neither had anything to gain from us getting a CI.

The audi would have to know SHE would be losing a potential client if the child was implanted since they would most likely switch to an audi at their implant center (who has pediatric CI experience). It's not like the average audi has the computer equipment to map CIs. So what would be in it for her?

Isn't it possible that the mom was just SO upset (which is perfectly understandable; I've been there) that she let the audi lead her into making the appointment, and then when she got home and had time to think about it she realized she needed more time to think it all through? I can see an audi talking about the different options out there, and if CIs were brought up, surgery would be mentioned, etc, and it sounds like it was all just too much for this mom to take in, her head was probably spinning.

With mom being upset, she may have misunderstood what the audi was doing, which was probably just trying to get the ball rolling for a mom who had just been thrown into a tough situation and didn't know how to proceed. The first thing to do would be to see an ENT to get checked out. And getting checked out is NOT the start of the CI process, since the child, if they did decide to get an implant, would need to go through an evaluation process at the implant center, and that would mean being medically evaluated again by their ENT...

 

[Oceanbreeze]

It really doesn't matter what the purpose (exam, CI, consultation) of the appointment is - bottom line - the mother should have made that decision and made her own appointment. The audiologist should not have put her in this position.

Who knows? Maybe the child is an excellent candidate for the CI in spite of her medical issues. But now the mother has had a "bad taste" about the CI decision - which is unfair. She should be able to explore all options without pressure from any professionals. Right now she's going through the fresh, raw stages of finding out her daughter is deaf - which is a shock right now. She needs time (as she had said herself) to adjust and to explore the options.

Exactly! What a lot of people are failing to recognize is this wasn't the parents decision. Now, she is feeling rushed and as you said, it probably has left a "nasty taste" in her mouth about the CI. You're right, too. It's NOT fair.

*sigh*

I hope the best for this child.

 

[shel90]

Exactly! What a lot of people are failing to recognize is this wasn't the parents decision. Now, she is feeling rushed and as you said, it probably has left a "nasty taste" in her mouth about the CI. You're right, too. It's NOT fair.

*sigh*

I hope the best for this child.

I agree too. I see too many people trying to give the audi the benefit of the doubt. This is a time to take a stand and say "No!" to the medical community about pushing the parents like that.

 

[jillio]

Isn't it possible that the audi thought she was helping out a very confused and upset mom by making an appointment with the ENT for her, rather than there being some self-serving ulterior motive for it? The first thing we did when we suspected our daughter was deaf was see a local audi, and the very next thing was to see a local ENT (who was referred to us by the local audi). Neither of these were affiliated with a CI center, so neither had anything to gain from us getting a CI.

The audi would have to know SHE would be losing a potential client if the child was implanted since they would most likely switch to an audi at their implant center (who has pediatric CI experience). It's not like the average audi has the computer equipment to map CIs. So what would be in it for her?

Isn't it possible that the mom was just SO upset (which is perfectly understandable; I've been there) that she let the audi lead her into making the appointment, and then when she got home and had time to think about it she realized she needed more time to think it all through? I can see an audi talking about the different options out there, and if CIs were brought up, surgery would be mentioned, etc, and it sounds like it was all just too much for this mom to take in, her head was probably spinning.

With mom being upset, she may have misunderstood what the audi was doing, which was probably just trying to get the ball rolling for a mom who had just been thrown into a tough situation and didn't know how to proceed. The first thing to do would be to see an ENT to get checked out. And getting checked out is NOT the start of the CI process, since the child, if they did decide to get an implant, would need to go through an evaluation process at the implant center, and that would mean being medically evaluated again by their ENT...

I find it odd that you would turn this around to be the responsibility of a confused mother, rather than on the unethical behavior of an audi.

Since there have been instances of others whom this audi has referred to this particualr ENT for CI evaluation, it can be safely assumed that is a part of the process. Likewise, it was reported that the audi, herself, admitted to this being standard practice for her.

Likewise, if this mother was as confused as you have described, then this is the exact point that the audi should have backed off and permitted this mother time to come to terms with and digest all of the inforamtion she had been given. The audi did just the opposite. She pushed this parent when the parent was most vulnerable.

Sorry, but all arrows point toward the audi.

 

[jillio]

I agree too. I see too many people trying to give the audi the benefit of the doubt. This is a time to take a stand and say "No!" to the medical community about pushing the parents like that.

Well, if they admit that this audi stepped over the line, then they have to admit that the practice does occur, when they have spent all their time trying to convince everyone that the medical exstablishment never puts pressure on anyone! They have to defend her to save their own justifications.

 

[Oddball]

I believe I suggested it earlier, but it sounds suspiciously as if this audi is receiving some form of compensation for referrals to this surgeon. If so, both are in violation of the ethical standards of their professions, and can be brought up on charges.

Report complaints to American Board of Audiology, so they will take a look at the complaint(s) on unethical practices.

Or mom will seek another audiologist with understanding. Unfortunately, there are not that many audiologists who are understanding at all. They want $$$.

 

[Grummer]

I agree too. I see too many people trying to give the audi the benefit of the doubt. This is a time to take a stand and say "No!" to the medical community about pushing the parents like that.

yeah, and I may be repeating this, but to say what is quite sneaky is that, they may only 'suggest' without actually giving advice, there is a big differences between advice and suggestion. These have similar effects. it is likely Audis tend to try suggest the idea of implant early so it stays in the attention of the parents for longer and hence gets easier to push the idea when it comes to the decision.

 

[rick48]

That sounds easy, Rick. But, alot of parents are intimidated and they don't say no. That's the problem. It's up to the parents to decide, but it's also up to the professionals to be professionals and do their jobs. That does NOT include arbitrarily expanding their job discription and overstepping boundaries.

Oceanbreeze,

Its also just as easy to explain away a parent's actions by saying they are "intimidated" by doctors.

Do you honestly believe that most parents are "intimidated" by doctors to the point that they would allow a surgery to be performed on their child that they did not want to happen!

As a parent of a child who has a cochlear implant and having been around many, many other such parents for over twenty years, my experience is that these parents are overwhelmingly NOT intimidated by doctors. They take the cochlear implant decision seriously and the last thing they are going to do is to submit their child to a surgical procedure merely because some doctor or audiologist said to do so.

If your experience with cochlear implant parents is different then I would like to know exactly the depth and breadth of that experience.

Does anyone who has gone through the cochlear implant evaluation process or understands that process seriously believe that after this parent's initial meeting with an audiologist that the surgery was scheduled for their next appointment? Anyone who has gone through the evaluation process, knows what is involved before anyone is implanted and thus, from the get go I find the mother's version to be suspect. Either she did not understand what she was being told or more likely as deafbajagirl stated in one of her last posts, the mother could not "hear" anything after the word surgery was used. I suspect its a combination of both.

Are there audiologists who overstep their bounds and pressure parents, I am certain there are but they are few and far between. Are there parents who abdicate their responsibilities and obligations to their children by unquestioningly following the advice of doctors or Deaf professionals, again I am certain there are and again, they are few and far between.

Also, lets not lose sight of the fact that the cochlear implant process is one that takes time from start to surgery and there is absolutely no reason why a parent cannot begin the process while examining other options. It is not a case of choosing one or the other at that point. Finally, always remember that the parent controls the process and a concerned and involved parent will neither choose a cochlear implant or deny their child a cochlear implant without having done the necessary research to make a reasoned and informed decision.
Rick

 

[rick48]

Isn't it possible that the audi thought she was helping out a very confused and upset mom by making an appointment with the ENT for her, rather than there being some self-serving ulterior motive for it? The first thing we did when we suspected our daughter was deaf was see a local audi, and the very next thing was to see a local ENT (who was referred to us by the local audi). Neither of these were affiliated with a CI center, so neither had anything to gain from us getting a CI.

The audi would have to know SHE would be losing a potential client if the child was implanted since they would most likely switch to an audi at their implant center (who has pediatric CI experience). It's not like the average audi has the computer equipment to map CIs. So what would be in it for her?

Isn't it possible that the mom was just SO upset (which is perfectly understandable; I've been there) that she let the audi lead her into making the appointment, and then when she got home and had time to think about it she realized she needed more time to think it all through? I can see an audi talking about the different options out there, and if CIs were brought up, surgery would be mentioned, etc, and it sounds like it was all just too much for this mom to take in, her head was probably spinning.

With mom being upset, she may have misunderstood what the audi was doing, which was probably just trying to get the ball rolling for a mom who had just been thrown into a tough situation and didn't know how to proceed. The first thing to do would be to see an ENT to get checked out. And getting checked out is NOT the start of the CI process, since the child, if they did decide to get an implant, would need to go through an evaluation process at the implant center, and that would mean being medically evaluated again by their ENT...

A very plausible scenario.
Rick

 

[jillio]

Oceanbreeze,

Its also just as easy to explain away a parent's actions by saying they are "intimidated" by doctors.

Do you honestly believe that most parents are "intimidated" by doctors to the point that they would allow a surgery to be performed on their child that they did not want to happen!

As a parent of a child who has a cochlear implant and having been around many, many other such parents for over twenty years, my experience is that these parents are overwhelmingly NOT intimidated by doctors. They take the cochlear implant decision seriously and the last thing they are going to do is to submit their child to a surgical procedure merely because some doctor or audiologist said to do so.

If your experience with cochlear implant parents is different then I would like to know exactly the depth and breadth of that experience.

Does anyone who has gone through the cochlear implant evaluation process or understands that process seriously believe that after this parent's initial meeting with an audiologist that the surgery was scheduled for their next appointment? Anyone who has gone through the evaluation process, knows what is involved before anyone is implanted and thus, from the get go I find the mother's version to be suspect. Either she did not understand what she was being told or more likely as deafbajagirl stated in one of her last posts, the mother could not "hear" anything after the word surgery was used. I suspect its a combination of both.

Are there audiologists who overstep their bounds and pressure parents, I am certain there are but they are few and far between. Are there parents who abdicate their responsibilities and obligations to their children by unquestioningly following the advice of doctors or Deaf professionals, again I am certain there are and again, they are few and far between.

Also, lets not lose sight of the fact that the cochlear implant process is one that takes time from start to surgery and there is absolutely no reason why a parent cannot begin the process while examining other options. It is not a case of choosing one or the other at that point. Finally, always remember that the parent controls the process and a concerned and involved parent will neither choose a cochlear implant or deny their child a cochlear implant without having done the necessary research to make a reasoned and informed decision.
Rick

You are absolutely correct. There is no reason that a parent cannot examine CI along with their other choices. However, it is the parent's decision to decide if and when that will occur, not the audi's.