Cynical Vez
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God was invented by man. No prayer you ever said, no outcry you ever made to god has ever been heard or answered.
Go figure.
Go figure.
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Reba said:
Reba said:
How do you know that? Do you remember being with a god forever? Did you live in the spiritual world forever and see the material world get created?
Scientists can find characteristics of the universe that are explained by the big bang and inflationary models. We don't have to be there at that time to figure out what happened. Can you do the same thing for the religious model in such a way that a god is shown to be necessary for the universe's creation in a similar way that the more complex theory of general relativity had been shown to fit what we see over a wider range of situtions than Newtonian physics? Does adding a god explain how things happen under a wider range of conditions and make predictions that can be tested? General relativity made predictions that had actually been seen to work. Now it is known to be very important in practical applications like the GPS.
Or are those beliefs from the bible? How do you differentiate between the bible verses about those things being true or those verses being written by people who had such beliefs, even if they were not true?
Reba said:
How do you know? Did these ideas come from the bible? So, how can you tell apart between the writers writing what was true, or the writers only writing what they believed or believed to be inspired to believe was true, with it actually not being true? How do you know those writings aren't of a legendary nature? How can you really know if a god inspired people to write about himself? Couldn't those people just believed that they were inspired by a god or based it on earlier examples of such legendary figures like Horus or Mithra?
And did anyone naming himself Jesus tell you in dreams, prayers, spiritual experiences, etc? How do you know that it's not imagined or a type of experience encouraged by hearing about such things from other believers?
I recall a believer talking about seeing flashes of light in his sleep and thinking it was the Holy Spirit. I've seen flashes in my sleep too. In vision psychophysics class, the teacher had us see them by pressing on our eyes. The believer's beliefs made him interpret things he didn't understand in terms of his beliefs and he'd likely end up using such things as evidence of his beliefs being true, which is a circular dependacy. I've found the real reason behind it, by finding how it can be reproduced, by pressure on the eyes that stimulates the photoreceptors. I happen to lie so my eyes can get pressed and the shape of the believer's face makes it easy for such pressure to be applied.
I think that it is much more probable that humans created gods to explain things they didn't understand. Once those gods had been created, other people learned about it and applied those ideas to explain things they didn't understand like the believer I know with those eye flashes. But just because we don't understand how something happens doesn't mean there is a god doing it.
Saying that a god made everything just-so is not explaining anything. It does nothing to explain the interrelationships between particles, atoms, molecules, rocks, organisms, planets, stars, galaxies and the entire universe. Believers could say that the god designed those relationships into the universe, but why whould a god do that if it would encourage people to see the universe as a naturally developing thing? This is not the jealous YAHWEH from the old testament unless he is also a showoff who plans things poorly and ends up creating an universe that distracts his own subjects from him. If believers say that he planned the universe as a test to see how faithful people are, how do they know that they are actually being tested in this way? If a god made the universe to test people like this, that says a lot about the god. It shows that the god values people believing in things that flies in the face of all of the evidence to the contrary that the universe has above people actually using their brains. In short, the god values people believing in him more than people using their brains. This reminds me of people in North Korea who save portraits of Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il by risking their lives and do it before saving other people.
Which one is more likely, A god named YAHWEH who is like that, or a naturally developing universe that wasn't created by any such being? The god seems to be improbable and looks like a projection humans made onto reality as religon developed from projecting humanity onto different things like fire, lightning and nature with a god for each of them, to one god that is humanity projected onto reality.
LinuxGold
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Since God created time in angel and our lives, in God's point of view, there are no time, neither before or after exists as he is infinite. Go out there and find Universe's end and let me know if you found it. THEN we will determine who created God.
hottiedeafboi said:
I've read creationist writings and found lots of examples of misunderstandings and misrepresentings of what science had told us about the universe. So don't say that all creationists are not ignorant.
Saying that nonbelief is man's idea and that belief comes from a god is a way of asserting superiority of belief over nonbelief. That cannot be done without evidence for the god and the beliefs being real and true.
How do you know that god made things by saying they're there and that everything obeys him? I see gods as how people understood how things happened and where they came from. How do you differentiate between people making up such beliefs to explain things and those beliefs being true?
If everything actually obeys god, why don't we have the god make things violate physics? Oh, right, in the bible, it says that god should not be tested, which makes it impossible to show that the god is real. And I know that not everything obeys god because nonbelievers do exist. Before saying that nonbelievers really do believe but are just rebelling, consider the countless times I've explained that such an idea is as silly as saying that people who don't believe in Santa are rebels against Santa.
Saying that nonbelievers will never figure it out is asserting superiority of belief again. Some nonbelievers were believers before and know what it is like to believe things without question. I was one before. Before saying that such people were never real believers, think of how you could know if they were or were not real believers before. Had you met them when they were believers, they'd look just like real believers. This means that maybe some believers you know or even you could someday not believe. You could say that only god knew which ones were fake believers, but how would you know that the god could know with the rest of us being totally unable to figure out who the fake believers are? Saying that no Christian can deconvert is the No True Scotsman fallacy.
Saying that nonbelievers abuse their brains and things in the world by misusing them is silly because I see evidence of believers doing that by saying that they don't believe in science, then turn around and use the very things that discoveries of science made possible. If religous people say that they don't believe in science, then they should stop using things like electricity, tap water, computers, cars, plastic things and countless other things. Discoveries in science led to technologies that enabled us to use or make those things. I think gods and religions were the first attempts at understanding the world, especially with things like fire and lightning, but grew into a social system that people could be controlled with. Science is actually looking at the world to see how it works, not imaging beings external to the world with no evidence to base such things on.
hottiedeafboi
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Well, I have seen and experience God. Not like I saw physical form or anything like. Its more than that and not even human can describe of it. Have human create? Where it comes from? All the life and oceans and etc. Think about it. I don't always agree total on particular creationist. But one thing is God does create all of this and universe. I personally doesn't believe its bam bam create. If you look closer how long does it take to create as that particular word when evening all lok good, then create another next day. There is something behind that, that is physics in it. Christian scientists already knew God created this but sudy the gas and etc. Took man to figure million timeslower than God. Bec He is Infinite, Creator-Sustainer. And yes, everything obey God. Ofc, non believers been here soooo long. Look at Greeks and Egyptians. The wise men. They studied astronomy and do you know I love astronomy and meteorology? I keep ponder my thoughts how awe God created all of this. Faith is a rewarder. No wonder why I love that song, "O Lord my God, when I'm in awesome wonder. Consider all the world Thy hands hath made. I see the stars, I hear the rolling thunder, Thy power thruout the universe display. Then sings my soul, my Saviour God to Thee,, How great Thou art, How great Thou art, then sings my soul, my Saviour God to Thee. How great Thou art, How great Thou AARRRRRT." That is very powerful, inspirational song I love so dear and that's I agree and know the writers ppoint.
hottiedeafboi said:
I know what you're talking about because I was a believer before.
I think the creation story was made to have something about how the world was made. Since the universe is more powerful than people with things like lightning, people naturally attributed its creation to something very powerful.
I read somewhere that the Hebrew word used in the story means time passed and didn't mean any particular amount of time.
Inspirational beliefs and songs can be the glue of groups, so those concepts get passed on to more people. There are some songs that I liked too.
hottiedeafboi
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Yeah, the problem is this, people do all the talking and not let God sppeak, its normal for people to be a motor mouth. Teehhee and many expect God speaks audibly or automatic. People been having hard time to slow down, but rush rush rush. Noises of this world interferes the gently voice of God. One of the prophet in the old testament hear the voice of God, there were earthquake, God not there, there were fires, God not there, but the quietness, God is there. That shows us, be still and have a quietness and as of solitude, God's voice is gentle. It doesn't matter how much we know "about" God, knowing God doesn't have to be going to church or being active in church or anything like that, tho He expect us to go, but all He wants is YOU and ME, in a personal way. That's what I starting to see and watch and see what God is speaking in many ways. Like Paul said, if no Spirit of Christ, we are separated, but with Christ, we have peace with God. This is why I learned to listen, not I do all the talk. Smile
That's funny word. 
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hottiedeafboi said:
God's Voice has many different sounds of water ( waterfall, river, ocean, and so on ). He is The Livin' Water. He will never thirst us when we grow in Him through the scriptures. How awesome God really is. That's really amazin' !
starrygaze
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XBGMER said:
Do you have soul?
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