We. Have. A. Big. Problem.

Reba said:
A deaf instructor would not require an interpreter for conducting classes. I've had deaf instructors and they didn't require interpreters. Now, if you mean that deaf instructors might require interpreters for staff meetings and such, that's possible.

If a college refuses to hire a deaf instructor just to avoid hiring terps, that's not legal. As far as tax "write offs" the people doing the hiring are aware of these things.

Just to be clear, there's no such thing as a tax "write off." Here's what the IRS posts:



It's also limited:

". . . the credit is 50 percent of expenditures over $250, not to exceed $10,250, for a maximum benefit of $5,000."
Tax Credits for Hiring People with Disabilities
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That applies to small businesses. Colleges are not small businesses, are they since they may have over 30 employees?
 
Reba said:
So, they aren't eligible for the tax credit.
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Oh my bad, I misunderstood it and thought the opposite of it.

Anyway, you said that you had deaf instructors. If one of them was in ASL class, I wonder how you understood the deaf instructor without an interpreter to learn ASL.
 
I am curious....and I know this will cause issues...that is not my intent.... But ever one seems aware of the issue and causes....how come nothing can be done?
I understand that legal and money issues...but... I am sorry if I cause an issue I am just trying to learn and understand...
 
Are you talking about why Deaf are not employed as ASL teachers? No one wants to pay for terps. According to me the employer should not have to pay, we should pay for terps through taxes. But many disagree. People and companies tend to like the easiest solution, and the easiest solution is usually not to employ a Deaf person. In many cases the person employing chooses someone who is similar to themselves, and worry about problems if a potential employee is different in any way.
 
Swedeafa said:
Are you talking about why Deaf are not employed as ASL teachers? No one wants to pay for terps. According to me the employer should not have to pay, we should pay for terps through taxes. But many disagree. People and companies tend to like the easiest solution, and the easiest solution is usually not to employ a Deaf person. In many cases the person employing chooses someone who is similar to themselves, and worry about problems if a potential employee is different in any way.
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No ... I am asking why the deaf as a whole do not do something.... I am having a hard time with the question because I do not know all the ins and outs.... I know that everyone from educators to employers do not want to deal with deaf people...they want to deal with people who are "normal" if that means acting like a hearing person, getting implants, or ect... They either take the path of least resistance or try and assimilate people...

What I am asking is why do the deaf as a whole not do anything (or are they and if so what) about the destruction of the culture, schools, ect... Everyone is aware of what is going on and why...but what can, is, or could be done about it besides saying its over?
 
Jezie said:
What I am asking is why do the deaf as a whole not do anything (or are they and if so what) about the destruction of the culture, schools, ect... Everyone is aware of what is going on and why...but what can, is, or could be done about it besides saying its over?
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That may be a little bit of an unfair statement. More and more parents are choosing CIs for their children as infants, and most of these children grow up not using sign language. Deaf Culture doesn't become a part of them unless they choose to, much later.

For schools, some of it is funding. We as deaf people don't have millions of dollars to fund deaf schools or deaf programs, and if the school districts cut funding/closes schools, how do you propose we fix that?

I'm not seeing people (at least not where I live/socialize with) saying Deaf Culture is over. It's alive and well here where I live. Who is telling you it's over?
 
AlleyCat said:
That may be a little bit of an unfair statement. More and more parents are choosing CIs for their children as infants, and most of these children grow up not using sign language. Deaf Culture doesn't become a part of them unless they choose to, much later.

For schools, some of it is funding. We as deaf people don't have millions of dollars to fund deaf schools or deaf programs, and if the school districts cut funding/closes schools, how do you propose we fix that?

I'm not seeing people (at least not where I live/socialize with) saying Deaf Culture is over. It's alive and well here where I live. Who is telling you it's over?
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Oh my...not meaning to be unfair....please understand...I know I am learning, I am just stating what I have come to understand, and trying to get the whole picture.... I know I am missing a lot.

As for the CI I do not agree with implanting babies but that is my opinion, and sadly I know parents are doing this more and more thinking and being told it is the "right thing to do". I can follow this through to the conclusion how it will decimate a large portion of deaf culture due to the fact that most of the people who who have been otherwise sent or had the opportunity to go to deaf schools would not. Therefore would not know their culture would not be able to influence it and are just assimilated into the masses... CI should be an adult choice but this is a very heated topic and it is only my opinion. I know many do not share it and I am not trying to force it on others.... It is just something I think, but I am learning...
People who say it is over are throughout this forum, people I have reached out to to talk about and learn, the books I read paint a grim picture and it is a conclusion I am coming to. As the deaf are forced out of classrooms and the hearing teachers teach it is not the deaf culture that is taught but whatever they want it to be....much like the saying histories are written by the victors...if it is not the deaf teaching then the true culture and essence is not past and learnt thus it will be lost...Not over now, but in time...maybe a few generations ... But I have hope that I am wrong ...
 
Jezie said:
Oh my...not meaning to be unfair....please understand...I know I am learning, I am just stating what I have come to understand, and trying to get the whole picture.... I know I am missing a lot.

As for the CI I do not agree with implanting babies but that is my opinion, and sadly I know parents are doing this more and more thinking and being told it is the "right thing to do". I can follow this through to the conclusion how it will decimate a large portion of deaf culture due to the fact that most of the people who who have been otherwise sent or had the opportunity to go to deaf schools would not. Therefore would not know their culture would not be able to influence it and are just assimilated into the masses... CI should be an adult choice but this is a very heated topic and it is only my opinion. I know many do not share it and I am not trying to force it on others.... It is just something I think, but I am learning...
People who say it is over are throughout this forum, people I have reached out to to talk about and learn, the books I read paint a grim picture and it is a conclusion I am coming to. As the deaf are forced out of classrooms and the hearing teachers teach it is not the deaf culture that is taught but whatever they want it to be....much like the saying histories are written by the victors...if it is not the deaf teaching then the true culture and essence is not past and learnt thus it will be lost...Not over now, but in time...maybe a few generations ... But I have hope that I am wrong ...
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I see... well there are so many issues at once. Firstly, the Deaf are really a very small group. This makes it difficult. In Sweden I can see a huge difference in activities and acceptance in places where there are large Deaf populations compared to places where there a few deaf people. A positive thing is that it is easier today for Deaf to move to places where there is a Deaf population compared to before, and even if you don't live in the same place, you still can stay in touch with other Deaf in much better ways than before.

Secondly, all cultures change over time. Change is not necessarily the the end of Deaf culture. It might be possible that Deaf culture will include CI users in the future. Wearing a CI does not exclude signing as an important language. It is hard to say what will happen, but it is possible that Deaf culture will adapt and survive somehow. Deaf societies should be proactive. If kids don't go to Deaf school, how do we do to reach them? Deaf school cannot be the only way.

I think Deaf people are doing something. Sign language has been recognized as a language in many countries, this is a good thing. More Deaf have good education in the younger generation compared to the older. This is also good, because with better education they will have more influence. I see many tv programs in sign language produced by Deaf. Many authorities in Sweden have information on the web in sign language. The Eurovision Song Contest was interpreted in international sign for the first time. This is huge thing in Europe.

The situation is difficult right now for Deaf culture, but maybe there are opportunities as well. I guess education and networking are two keys.
 
Jezie said:
Oh my...not meaning to be unfair....please understand...I know I am learning, I am just stating what I have come to understand, and trying to get the whole picture.... I know I am missing a lot.

As for the CI I do not agree with implanting babies but that is my opinion, and sadly I know parents are doing this more and more thinking and being told it is the "right thing to do". I can follow this through to the conclusion how it will decimate a large portion of deaf culture due to the fact that most of the people who who have been otherwise sent or had the opportunity to go to deaf schools would not. Therefore would not know their culture would not be able to influence it and are just assimilated into the masses... CI should be an adult choice but this is a very heated topic and it is only my opinion. I know many do not share it and I am not trying to force it on others.... It is just something I think, but I am learning...
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I think many do share your opinion. I think you'd be surprised. It's more the parents who don't share that opinion.

People who say it is over are throughout this forum, people I have reached out to to talk about and learn, the books I read paint a grim picture and it is a conclusion I am coming to. As the deaf are forced out of classrooms and the hearing teachers teach it is not the deaf culture that is taught but whatever they want it to be....much like the saying histories are written by the victors...if it is not the deaf teaching then the true culture and essence is not past and learnt thus it will be lost...Not over now, but in time...maybe a few generations ... But I have hope that I am wrong ...
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I'm certain that some teachers, books, even some posters here are painting the "grim picture" as you wrote, but I think overall it's not as doomed as one might think. It might appear to be so in certain areas (certain cities, countries, etc.) but other areas, not. (Like my area, as I said in my earlier post. We have so many deaf activities here, a d/Deaf club, etc. Sometimes I'm amazed at what it's like here - the volume of activity.)
 
CrazyPaul said:
Oh my bad, I misunderstood it and thought the opposite of it.

Anyway, you said that you had deaf instructors. If one of them was in ASL class, I wonder how you understood the deaf instructor without an interpreter to learn ASL.
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They used handouts, white board, acting out situations, visual examples, text book, slides, notes.

There are also spoken language instructors that use total immersion methods where they don't speak English while teaching another language. It's not an unknown technique.

Total immersion is a better way to learn a language, as long as the student let's himself or herself "go with the flow." That is, let go of the English and comparing the new language to English. Be a child learning language from momma or papa.
 
I just want to state that I am not argumentive...I am learning and I accept I may be wrong...but talking g and debating a topic is how I learn along with reading. :) so remember I am not arguing with you and at no point do I mean to upset anyone...

Swedeafa said:
I see... well there are so many issues at once. Firstly, the Deaf are really a very small group. This makes it difficult. In Sweden I can see a huge difference in activities and acceptance in places where there are large Deaf populations compared to places where there a few deaf people. A positive thing is that it is easier today for Deaf to move to places where there is a Deaf population compared to before, and even if you don't live in the same place, you still can stay in touch with other Deaf in much better ways than before.
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This is very helpful and a good thing. I do not know much of Sweden, do you have a recommended reading?
It does seem from what you say they are on the right track. Community can be defined in multiple ways so distance really is not a factor, once one is established.

But at the same go...with the closing of deaf schools, ci, and mainstreaming people are later in life to become part of it or do not learn about it. And I have noticed once you do learn about it, there are people to teach and help lead you through it.

Swedeafa said:
Secondly, all cultures change over time. Change is not necessarily the the end of Deaf culture. It might be possible that Deaf culture will include CI users in the future. Wearing a CI does not exclude signing as an important language. It is hard to say what will happen, but it is possible that Deaf culture will adapt and survive somehow. Deaf societies should be proactive. If kids don't go to Deaf school, how do we do to reach them? Deaf school cannot be the only way.
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All cultures do change...it is only a matter of time and influence.... CI users should not be excluded, however...I notice I am starting to form a thought that may become a belief... Please understand I am learning and know this will seem beyond rude, and it is not my intent.
But CI users will eventually and deserve their own culture ... They experience things differently and eventual they should be separate cultures ... I want to say kind of like US and Canada but that is saying it wrong... Okay, CI and unimplanted deaf...both are deaf but their lives, struggles, accomplishments, and mentality will form different personalities, arts, literatures, and the use of sign is different.... CI users and none already have heated debates and CI users seem to be.... Seen as hearing wanta-bees by others... While other CI users are seen as okay...I am not sure what makes the difference or if it is that they are CI users. It is only something I have noticed and accept that this may be wrong... I do accept that I am missing thing and could be stepping on toes and I am not meaning to...

Swedeafa said:
I think Deaf people are doing something. Sign language has been recognized as a language in many countries, this is a good thing. More Deaf have good education in the younger generation compared to the older. This is also good, because with better education they will have more influence. I see many tv programs in sign language produced by Deaf. Many authorities in Sweden have information on the web in sign language. The Eurovision Song Contest was interpreted in international sign for the first time. This is huge thing in Europe.
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Europe as a whole seems to me as a mixed bag... While many countries are improving, they are also putting in steps that remove or have maintained the deaf people from influencing things....read recently that Germany banned sign until 2002 and is only recently moved it in... But instead of using German sign (believe it is called DGS) it was debated that ASL and BSL be used instead and in some regions (do not know about all) that is what was used... This cannot be good for their deaf culture that has already suffered so much through many struggles... Their schools are almost all mainstreamed and oral...
So while sign can be accepted it can also cause issue.... The other thing I have noticed is that while sign is more accepted, it seems that it is more acceptable for a hearing child or person to learn sign than it is for the deaf child or adult. Some people seem to see sign as more of an art then an actual language of a culture... While I will agree much like the written word some are more artistic in their sign then others...others throughout time have also approached it in an almost religious tone... But accepting sign is a huge step but it can also lead to the perversion of it if not handled correctly...and in this I believe the deaf should have the main say...yet they are kept out as far as I know.

Swedeafa said:
The situation is difficult right now for Deaf culture, but maybe there are opportunities as well. I guess education and networking are two keys.
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No truer words could be used...right now it does seem a time of influx it has happened several times in history but now with CI at no other time has deaf culture been more at risk. The deaf need to have a say but it seems to me, and is my main curiosity, what are/can the deaf do?
Networking and education is the key, but right now the ones holding the master key seems to be people following the ones that want us all to be a single unit/culture/society and that would mean to kill deaf culture and regulate it to history books and a museums...
 
That is what I am afraid that would indicate what our future would be that the hearing parents and the hearing authorities like Alexander Graham Bell Foundation want us, both deaf babies and late deafened to have oral method instead of sign languages. That is a long sentence to type out. :(

No wonder we are trying to fight Hearing Society not to abandon or trying to omit our Deaf Culture and our ASL or any other sign languages in different countries. It is not fair to our own identities. We will always be d/Deaf. That is why we are trying to make them (hearing people) understand that they can not take our deafness and our Deaf Culture away from us. The hearing people need to accept us as we are. That is why there has been misinform on the hearing parents and the hearing doctors who don't get it. We have been frustrated with them every time they tried to make us be like them. It had happened the same with Native American children in boarding schools (US) and residential schools (Canada) which the White people tried to change us to satisfy their own White culture. We know we are not the only ones as it has happened the same all over the world. They just don't understand. They need to let us go with our access to our needs like sign language and other accommodations for the d/Deaf.

Someday, we might be able to protest to the hearing people not to force us to do what they want. :fingersx:
 
Bebonang said:
That is what I am afraid that would indicate what our future would be that the hearing parents and the hearing authorities like Alexander Graham Bell Foundation want us, both deaf babies and late deafened to have oral method instead of sign languages. That is a long sentence to type out. :(

No wonder we are trying to fight Hearing Society not to abandon or trying to omit our Deaf Culture and our ASL or any other sign languages in different countries. It is not fair to our own identities. We will always be d/Deaf. That is why we are trying to make them (hearing people) understand that they can not take our deafness and our Deaf Culture away from us. The hearing people need to accept us as we are. That is why there has been misinform on the hearing parents and the hearing doctors who don't get it. We have been frustrated with them every time they tried to make us be like them. It had happened the same with Native American children in boarding schools (US) and residential schools (Canada) which the White people tried to change us to satisfy their own White culture. We know we are not the only ones as it has happened the same all over the world. They just don't understand. They need to let us go with our access to our needs like sign language and other accommodations for the d/Deaf.

Someday, we might be able to protest to the hearing people not to force us to do what they want. :fingersx:
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Why can nothing be done now and not leave it to someday with everything is said and done?
I know what you mean about Native Americans... Still to this day there are struggles...
 
Jezie said:
No ... I am asking why the deaf as a whole do not do something.... I am having a hard time with the question because I do not know all the ins and outs.... I know that everyone from educators to employers do not want to deal with deaf people...they want to deal with people who are "normal" if that means acting like a hearing person, getting implants, or ect... They either take the path of least resistance or try and assimilate people...

What I am asking is why do the deaf as a whole not do anything (or are they and if so what) about the destruction of the culture, schools, ect... Everyone is aware of what is going on and why...but what can, is, or could be done about it besides saying its over?
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jezie in my own case I become apathetic and I know others the same,sometimes get so tired trying get things done give up.
It easy to give child CI cost effective until it fails then poor kid left in limbo parents beat themselves up about it kid been taught as hearing child to find not the case anymore and no provision for that child and we wonder why high rate of depression with deaf young people.
but have take on board medical advances certain illness cause deafness that is rare now and some anti biotics that cause deafness not used so much there not as many deaf people around .
I was going to use graham bell as example beb got there first,he was oral only and his wife had torchured life and that thinking set not that many generations back.Beb you had rough time with this thinking and treatment it was tantamount to cruelty..Many deaf are doing things be good to look at europ aswel as States get all round look evaluate what you see...read limping chicken that the british deaf site that another facet
 
I do appreciate you all taking the time with me...I know I can come off as naive or silly...

caz12 said:
...read limping chicken that the british deaf site that another facet
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Is this a book or website?
 
ah, this one is about elitism, via the audism.....nothing new about it
 
I applauding Amy Cohen Efron made her several good points. She have me contemplating her debate.
 
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