Two girls with CI...

[jillio]

Jillio,

A suggestion for ya hon. that may or may not work for you. if you read it in a magazine then start a notebook or a notepad on your computer or offline,that tells ya what you read and where.

That way you can always easily locate the source and provide links without driving yourself nuts.

Just a suggestion.

Huh? That was deafdyke's reply, not mine.

 

[Bear]

Hi, Bear:

You wrote first: . I don't think these parents did have knowledge about these. Maybe "some that does", but probably very few.



Probably hearing parents (or many hearing at all) don't know enough about the community to make informed decision about "worth getting involved in".

But I don't think a person must "wholeheartedly involved with the deaf community" to give the deaf community a "good name" or teach hearing parents deaf people are not just a problem for cure. A deaf/HoH person who works hard in a career or school and is a decent human is enough I think.

For the community, the best is knowledge of differences with deaf/HoH = we are not all alike and so don't agree about everything. If we disagree with knowledge and polite ways I think we show we are worth getting involved in. I don't expect "united front" on CI - too personal decisions for all to agree. But I hope hearing parents learn about deaf culture and ASL for informed decision and I hope deaf/HoH disagree with respect and not offense.

And Honest and with respect, Bear (you create great CI threads), I don't see most hearing parents and audiologist/CI surgeons "work with us". If none learn about deaf culture, ASL, etc they do not "work with us". If they think deaf/HoH are only problems for cure, none "work with us". I wish they did.

Maybe we disagree, but I hope no offense.

for the comment on my CI threads.

Im not saying that we all need to wholeheartedly agree on things as that is not going to happen and is impossible to happen when you have so many different and unique people.

What I mean is, inside our own community we shun those that do not agree with our opinions.

I am speaking of this from experience. When I first became deaf, I couldnt fit in to save my life. They were against me because I couldnt sign. They were against me because I could still hear on a phone. They were against me because I could talk and communicate well with the hearing staff on an oral level. They were against me because I would ask for explanation of what that sign meant. They refused to help me to learn sign and told me to learn it myself.

Now exactly what kind of image is that for the deaf community?

This is what I mean by a united front. If we are going to want people to turn to our community and turn to using sign. Then we need to unite with acceptance and help. Too many deaf give the attitude of learn it yourself its not our job to help you. We give the attitude of be deaf like me and then you will gain acceptance. We need to do away with that. And UNITE in acceptance of any d/Deaf/hearing/latened deaf/hoh person. And we need to UNITE in our willingness to teach.

I am not speaking of UNITE in the CI issue. That will never happen. But we can UNITE in accepting that the other person chose a CI and not necessarily chose against the deaf as a whole.

the hearing parent may no know about our community, but isnt it our responsibility as well to try our best to inform them of it? Isnt it also the parents responsibility to do more in depth research?

Sadly all too many of them do have the *fix-it* as a cure attitude. It is up to us to show them that deafness doesnt necessarily need a cure.

I see several deaf people standing up and taking a stance on the issue in a respectful manner. The information is out there, if the parents cared enough to go looking for it.

The medical profession will always have a *cure* attitude for any thing that is not 100% working. Doesnt matter what it is.

It is up to the non medical profession to get that info out there themselves and try to work with the medical profession on changing THEIR opinions and approaches.

With all due respect Kaitan, I do wanna say that you too do offer valid arguements. I find your posts very insightful and very well thought out.

I do enjoy reading your posts, even if I may not always agree.

 

[Bear]

Huh? That was deafdyke's reply, not mine.

oops sorry Jillio thought it was yours. Guess I read too many of these threads that it now blends in on who posts what.

Lol sorry please accept my apology on my error.

 

[Bear]

Remember that the parents added this comment about wanting her child to have more opportunities in the hearing world after she made that statement. It shows that the mother has this view that if she got her daughter involved with the Deaf culture, her opportunities would be limited. That was what bothered me because it doesnt have to be that way. One can do both but yet there is this strange view that it is either the CI route or the ASL route. That is what I am hoping to send out the msg...one can be involved in both.

That is exactly my point Shel. I am trying to say that we need to show that being a part of the deaf culture can be a very positive thing and not limiting in any way.

And I agree, one can be involved in both and still learn orally. There are many oral deaf that do not hear at all. The CI while it may be allowing them to *hear* their own voices, is not 100% necessary to achieve oral success.

 

[jillio]

We were living in Boston at the time, which was a bastion of Deaf culture. Thus, oral programs were not plentiful, but we very much wanted Rachel to be able to take advantage of all the opportunities the hearing world had to offer.



bas·tion /ˈbæstʃən, -tiən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[bas-chuhn, -tee-uhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. Fortification. a projecting portion of a rampart or fortification that forms an irregular pentagon attached at the base to the main work.
2. a fortified place.
3. anything seen as preserving or protecting some quality, condition, etc.: a bastion of solitude; a bastion of democracy.
Meaning that deaf culture was very much preserved and known in that community they were in. So these parents did have knowledge.

They did have knowledge that Deaf Culture existed. What they did not have knowledge of was the numerous ways in which exposure to the members of this community could provide benefit to their deaf children. In other words, the information and opportunity was easily accessible to this family, but they choose not to avail themselves of this vaulable resource. Once again, this is a case of a hearing parent deciding that a hearing professional knows more about the experience of living with deafness than the very people who have experienced it. It is a case of discounting first hand experience and relying solely on second hand information.

The parental attitude in this case is made obvious by numerous statements. They chose not to expose their child to the easily accessible resources available because they did not see the deaf community as a valuable resource. And, that attitude is not only ethnocentric, but (yes, I'm going to say it) audist, in that it assumes that hearing provides some sort of expertise.

 

[jillio]

oops sorry Jillio thought it was yours. Guess I read too many of these threads that it now blends in on who posts what.

Lol sorry please accept my apology on my error.

LOL! Not a problem! Just confused me, because I do keep computer files of numerous research findings, and have an extensive personal library of volumes on deafness, as well as access to an academic library.

 

[jillio]

That is exactly my point Shel. I am trying to say that we need to show that being a part of the deaf culture can be a very positive thing and not limiting in any way.

And I agree, one can be involved in both and still learn orally. There are many oral deaf that do not hear at all. The CI while it may be allowing them to *hear* their own voices, is not 100% necessary to achieve oral success.

Agreed. That is exactly the picture I was given when I sought out the advise and experience of members in the deaf community when my son was diagnosed. But, I had to take advantage of the resource that was available to me, and go outside the limits of the medical community, and the hearing community. I just don't see that these parents have done that, despite the fact that it was available to them.

 

[shel90]

They did have knowledge that Deaf Culture existed. What they did not have knowledge of was the numerous ways in which exposure to the members of this community could provide benefit to their deaf children. In other words, the information and opportunity was easily accessible to this family, but they choose not to avail themselves of this vaulable resource. Once again, this is a case of a hearing parent deciding that a hearing professional knows more about the experience of living with deafness than the very people who have experienced it. It is a case of discounting first hand experience and relying solely on second hand information.

The parental attitude in this case is made obvious by numerous statements. They chose not to expose their child to the easily accessible resources available because they did not see the deaf community as a valuable resource. And, that attitude is not only ethnocentric, but (yes, I'm going to say it) audist, in that it assumes that hearing provides some sort of expertise.

If you click on this, you will read Rachel"s statement about ASL and Deaf culture.

Cochlear Implant Online

Cochlear Implant Online

Rachel"s statement about sign language. That is what turned me off.

my public middle school, which had a total communication program, I met a few students with cochlear implants and hearing aids, and they all signed and also spoke. Their speech was very unintelligible because they relied on sign language frequently. Most of them were also not mainstreamed and were in a self-contained classroom all day. If I relied on sign language like these students, my life would have been like theirs In that I would not have fully participated in the mainstream environment, and my speech would have been unclear and, thus, more difficult for people to understand.

She has no clue and to make statements like these is portraying many deaf/hoh who grew up with ASL wrong. :roll:

 

[ladycaissa]

As I sit here and read how you guys think the girl's parents aren't considering the deaf world, I wonder if you guys ever thought about what was it like to be them. Here they are with a deaf child. They don't know anything but the hearing world. They don't know anything about the deaf world. They only recieve information from the audiologist.

Please consider this fact. Not many people are privliaged to meet and get to know deaf people and the deaf world.

 

[shel90]

As I sit here and read how you guys think the girl's parents aren't considering the deaf world, I wonder if you guys ever thought about what was it like to be them. Here they are with a deaf child. They don't know anything but the hearing world. They don't know anything about the deaf world. They only recieve information from the audiologist.

Please consider this fact. Not many people are privliaged to meet and get to know deaf people and the deaf world.

The mother made this statement:


We were living in Boston at the time, which was a bastion of Deaf culture. Thus, oral programs were not plentiful, but we very much wanted Rachel to be able to take advantage of all the opportunities the hearing world had to offer. At the age of three months, Rachel received her first set of hearing aids, body worn aids, which consisted of two boxes with wires running up to button-like earplugs. and then Auditory-Verbal approach". And "we still had time to turn to sign if it didn't work."

She chose not to seek out the Deaf culture even with the knowledge that is was available in their area.

 

[Tousi]

As I sit here and read how you guys think the girl's parents aren't considering the deaf world, I wonder if you guys ever thought about what was it like to be them. Here they are with a deaf child. They don't know anything but the hearing world. They don't know anything about the deaf world. They only recieve information from the audiologist.

Please consider this fact. Not many people are privliaged to meet and get to know deaf people and the deaf world.

This is why and where the deaf leaders in this country need a level playing field in accessing & educating the parents on the social/cultural aspects of deafness. As it is now they have convenient access to audies and other people in the medical profession who, by and large, view deafness from the medical perspective only. And I guess this access would require a push, a law emanating from the Federal level; otherwise, the effort is hodge-podge at best.

 

[Audiofuzzy]

The mother made this statement:


We were living in Boston at the time, which was a bastion of Deaf culture. Thus, oral programs were not plentiful, but we very much wanted Rachel to be able to take advantage of all the opportunities the hearing world had to offer. At the age of three months, Rachel received her first set of hearing aids, body worn aids, which consisted of two boxes with wires running up to button-like earplugs. and then Auditory-Verbal approach". And "we still had time to turn to sign if it didn't work."

She chose not to seek out the Deaf culture even with the knowledge that is was available in their area.

but WHY, Shel, WHY ?

is not that she condemned the Deaf culture on the spot.

Fuzzy

 

[deafskeptic]

but WHY, Shel, WHY ?

is not that she condemned the Deaf culture on the spot.

Fuzzy

Given the way the hearing parents phrased it, it definitely sounds like it to me.

Here's one meaning of this word:
Noun 1. bastion - a group that defends a principle; "a bastion against corruption"; "the last bastion of communism"

As you can see for yourself, this word normally doesn't have a negative meaning. I'm pretty certain that the parents had this meaning in mind. However the way it was phrased; it carries a negative meaning given the context.

 

[shel90]

Given the way the hearing parents phrased it, it definitely sounds like it to me.

Here's one meaning of this word:
Noun 1. bastion - a group that defends a principle; "a bastion against corruption"; "the last bastion of communism"

As you can see for yourself, this word normally doesn't have a negative meaning. I'm pretty certain that the parents had this meaning in mind. However the way it was phrased; it carries a negative meaning given the context.

That's how I saw it too.

 

[Audiofuzzy]

Given the way the hearing parents phrased it, it definitely sounds like it to me.

Here's one meaning of this word:
Noun 1. bastion - a group that defends a principle; "a bastion against corruption"; "the last bastion of communism"

As you can see for yourself, this word normally doesn't have a negative meaning. I'm pretty certain that the parents had this meaning in mind. However the way it was phrased; it carries a negative meaning given the context.

I don't think so.

First of all bastion is simply an old Italian world for fortress, which means fortified place, which means a stronghold.
Definition of bastion - Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary. It was, metaphorically, supposed to mean exactly that - Boston had a forceful organization of deaf pple.



let's analyze:

We were living in Boston at the time, which was a bastion of Deaf culture.

In the first part it is said the place where they were living (Boston) was - a second part - a bastion of deaf culture.
meaning - she said they were living in a city that had a strong deaf culture going on,

BUT


oral programs were not plentiful,


BUT - the ORAL services they had on offer were not to their satisfaction, and they (the parents)
but we very much wanted Rachel to be able to take advantage of all the opportunities the hearing world had to offer.

they wanted Rachel to be able to hear and speak as well as possible.
Since the programs they wanted were not available, they opted to go oral only.

BUT still -
"we still had time to turn to sign if it didn't work."

they kept in mind this might not work, and evaluated that if their oral approach fails, they still will be time for sign. (meaning, they knew about time passing for learning to sign, and decided there is sufficient time)

So no they weren't using "bastion" in negative way. They just said Boston had a strong deaf community.

Fuzzy

 

[deafskeptic]

Fuzzy, ever heard of reading between the lines? The negative meaning was implied given the context. As I said, this word normally doesn't have a negative meaning.

To give you an idea of what I mean, let's say that a Republican who's noted for being anti-communist tells his potential voters that colleges are bastions of communists, would that word have a negative meaning given the context? I rest my case.

 

[shel90]

I don't think so.

First of all bastion is simply an old Italian world for fortress, which means fortified place, which means a stronghold.
Definition of bastion - Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary. It was, metaphorically, supposed to mean exactly that - Boston had a forceful organization of deaf pple.



let's analyze:

We were living in Boston at the time, which was a bastion of Deaf culture.

In the first part it is said the place where they were living (Boston) was - a second part - a bastion of deaf culture.
meaning - she said they were living in a city that had a strong deaf culture going on,

BUT


oral programs were not plentiful,


BUT - the ORAL services they had on offer were not to their satisfaction, and they (the parents)
but we very much wanted Rachel to be able to take advantage of all the opportunities the hearing world had to offer.

they wanted Rachel to be able to hear and speak as well as possible.
Since the programs they wanted were not available, they opted to go oral only.

BUT still -
"we still had time to turn to sign if it didn't work."

they kept in mind this might not work, and evaluated that if their oral approach fails, they still will be time for sign. (meaning, they knew about time passing for learning to sign, and decided there is sufficient time)

So no they weren't using "bastion" in negative way. They just said Boston had a strong deaf community.

Fuzzy

That's my point..they knew about it and yet didnt seek the Deaf community out for advice. The girls ended up with delays in their language in which they had to spend an exorbitant amount of time on hard work so their language levels can catch up. They were lucky that they could to some extent but there are so many other deaf children being put in that position and many of them never catch up.

 

[jag]

Fuzzy, ever heard of reading between the lines? The negative meaning was implied given the context. As I said, this word normally doesn't have a negative meaning.

To give you an idea of what I mean, let's say that a Republican who's noted for being anti-communist tells his potential voters that colleges are bastions of communists, would that word have a negative meaning given the context? I rest my case.

There Not?

Anyway sometimes people decide that everyone who disagrees with them is being negative. You're reading 'between' the lines and again attributing a parent with your opinion. The parents decisions disagreed with what you think is right so you see something that probably isn't there.

I see that they were living in Boston which has a strong deaf community. They wanted to ensure that their daughter got the most out of her implant as possible so wanted a strong oral program, which was not offered in that particular deaf community. To me that doesn't mean they wouldn't have used a method that promoted both the oral and sign approach, just that it wasn't available at that time (and still isn't in many areas from what I've seen here) and the easiest way to communicate with hearing people would be and still is to be able to hear and speak. (I said easiest not only) Since the deaf community and educational community there did not offer what they felt was best for their child they went with a oral only approach.

Perhaps if there had been the programs that they wanted that stressed speech and listening skills to take advantage of the CI plus used ASL, they would have stayed and become part of that community. It didn't so they chose a different approach.

 

[Kaitin]

To me "bastion" means "stronghold" = defending, "us versus them". So not all neutral or positive. Lexic.us has interesting definition: "A group that defends a principle" Probably more modern than "stronghold" and again more "us versus them" - defending a principle against others.

I don't know the parent's thinking with "bastion". But if they see Boston has strong deaf community, I hope they communicate with the community and not only CI and oral. They write a lot about CI, problems with CI, reimplantation, bilateral implantation, speech, mapping etc. Nothing about ASL or deaf culture. Probably they don't know ASL. But I don't know from the article - maybe or maybe not. One child had reimplanation and CI failure twice and one girl needing lipreading - I hope the parents offer ASL and learn ASL too and realize the girls aren't "hearing with CI" but HoH/deaf with CI.

 

[shel90]

To me "bastion" means "stronghold" = defending, "us versus them". So not all neutral or positive. Lexic.us has interesting definition: "A group that defends a principle" Probably more modern than "stronghold" and again more "us versus them" - defending a principle against others.

I don't know the parent's thinking with "bastion". But if they see Boston has strong deaf community, I hope they communicate with the community and not only CI and oral. They write a lot about CI, problems with CI, reimplantation, bilateral implantation, speech, mapping etc. Nothing about ASL or deaf culture. Probably they don't know ASL. But I don't know from the article - maybe or maybe not. One child had reimplanation and CI failure twice and one girl needing lipreading - I hope the parents offer ASL and learn ASL too and realize the girls aren't "hearing with CI" but HoH/deaf with CI.

If you read the links that I provided so u can read the older girl's view on ASL. It is apparent that she and her parents knew about it but may have some misconceptions about it.