true perception of the hearing world?

[gnulinuxman]

Until you have to deal with deafness in some form or another, you have absolutely no clue what it is to be deaf regardless the degree of it. Just being around those who are deaf doesn't give you any real understanding until you have experienced yourself. Therefore, you have nothing to say about it either and stop putting on airs about your ability to sign. It is not necessary for you to sign period. It is something you enjoy doing and you often parade that fact. It is totally an option for you which is far more so than it is for me. I have a choice to do sign or not but I prefer not to do so...and it is not about "lording" over anybody. *Shrug* It is a personal thing and I rarely talk about it which should be the case. Since I live in the hearing world, I go by the maxim "As in Rome do as the Romans do....".

Look, I didn't say I knew what it was like to be deaf. I merely pointed out that the problem you describe has nothing to do with your cochlear implant or speaking abilities.

And to go by your little analogy, when you want to fit into Deaf culture, you SIGN. I wouldn't be accepted by anyone in the Deaf culture if I refused to sign. I don't know of any culturally Deaf person who wouldn't be mad at me for refusing to sign.

Going back to the issue of the deaf culture, no I'm not a part of it nor will I ever be a part of it. Ummm...I thought this forum for all those who are deaf in some degree or interested in the deaf world. Let me see, when my CI is off I'm deaf as they come...where does that put you?

You still fail to grasp my point that the purpose of Deaf culture is to promote SIGNING, not deafness. It has nothing to do with hearing ability or lack thereof.

Yes, I'm hearing. I'm hearing. I'M HEARING. How many times must I repeat it before you realize that I have never claimed to be deaf or to know what it's like to not hear anything? I never explicitly stated that I ever knew what it was like to be unable to hear.

 

[gnulinuxman]

From what I've read in here, I would slide with gnulinuxman, He seems to have a lot of knowledge about "feelings" along in Deaf people, even through he isn't deaf himself. It all has to do with opening up your heart and understand the feelings why the deaf feels the way they are feeling. Some people think it's all about attitude, What about the ones who have CI, those who are hearing, They're no better than deaf people. I just wish that everyone would treat each others the same level of respect.

Thanks. This is just the point I was trying to make.

In my personal opinion, I've seen so much, I've walked the path of life with some hearing people who doesn't have the time of the day to try to talk to a deaf person, I've told a several people that I'm deaf because this person would be speaking so fast for me to read this person's lips, I would get a respond, as "I'm sorry" and walked away. They don't recognized that what they did, offended me, because they haven't gave it a chance at least try to communicate. I'm so sick of being treated like second class. Do I have to be hearing in order to be treat fairly? It's bullshit!

I don't think you should have to be hearing for anything.

 

[sr171soars]

Look, I didn't say I knew what it was like to be deaf. I merely pointed out that the problem you describe has nothing to do with your cochlear implant or speaking abilities.

And to go by your little analogy, when you want to fit into Deaf culture, you SIGN. I wouldn't be accepted by anyone in the Deaf culture if I refused to sign. I don't know of any culturally Deaf person who wouldn't be mad at me for refusing to sign.
You still fail to grasp my point that the purpose of Deaf culture is to promote SIGNING, not deafness. It has nothing to do with hearing ability or lack thereof.

Yes, I'm hearing. I'm hearing. I'M HEARING. How many times must I repeat it before you realize that I have never claimed to be deaf or to know what it's like to not hear anything? I never explicitly stated that I ever knew what it was like to be unable to hear.

Let's quit talking past each other. We are getting nowhere here.

Your being hearing is not the issue. My not signing is not an issue.

My experiences in the past at Gallaudet was simply one of rejection because I wasn't like them. I just passing through (visiting a former teacher from my youth) and I could feel the hostility. I wasn't trying to do anything at all. Maybe at the time, HAs are what CIs are today for some them... Talk about snottiness! I was in my early 20's then and that left an everlasting impression about the so-called Deaf culture. If that was the way it was going to be...I wanted no part of it. Just because I don't sign doesn't mean I can't read body language and it positively screamed "He ain't one of us and he is the enemy!!!". What the heck!!!! How different might it had been for me if they at least acknowledge me as a being deaf (as a 'tweener) if nothing else. But no, they couldn't do that. As they say, "live and learn".

Fast forward to today. I can now understand why that was so but it didn't make it right. I did nothing to deserve that. I can agree the Deaf culture is very misunderstood by those not a part of it. I have learned alot here that gives me a much better and balance view of it. That can only be a good thing...no?

To respond to your one point, I'm not trying to be a part of the Deaf culture at all. Being deaf doesn't mean having to be part of anything. I found my niche and that is good enough for me.

I have to say, let's just drop the whole thing and be done with it. It ain't worth the hassle factor of misunderstandings.

 

[Cheri]

sr171soars,

May I....

Since you've mention that you don't want to be any part of the Deaf Culture what do you mean by that? Is it because you find it uncomfortable that you might get rejected? To be honest, it's all depends on you, rather you want to be able to communicate with them or not. Why is it their fault that they might cannot understand you if you do not know any sign language or another way to communicate? Is that your reason for running away?

Look at me, I'm not a skilled ASL signer, like the rest of the deaf individuals, I'm more Signed English. I try my best as I know how in order to communicate with them. I'm not going to rejected the Deaf Community just because I do not signed in ASL, I treat them the same dignity, respect, and courtesy that I show to others. If a deaf person doesn't understand me, I'll rephrase it. If I don't understand them, They'll rehrase it too.

But, from what I've been reading by you, You seem that you don't want nothing to do with the Deaf Community because that now you have a CI, You would rather to fit yourself more in the hearing world than both worlds. It sounds like you're rejecting them, not them rejecting you.

 

[sr171soars]

sr171soars,

May I....

Since you've mention that you don't want to be any part of the Deaf Culture what do you mean by that? Is it because you find it uncomfortable that you might get rejected? To be honest, it's all depends on you, rather you want to be able to communicate with them or not. Why is it their fault that they might cannot understand you if you do not know any sign language or another way to communicate? Is that your reason for running away?

Nope, that is not it. It is really simple. My entire world is hearing (my wife & kids plus extended family plus social circle plus church...you get the idea). I don't have the time nor energy to spend time learning sign. I have never needed it and why start now. Also, who do I use it with? Learning sign is like learning a new language. I believe languages are use it or lose it affairs. The older you get the harder it gets. As for being uncomfortable, that is not a problem as I have been around the deaf many times over the years. I'm cool with it...no big deal. Most of the deaf I had dealt with were 'tweeners too and we all got along fine (not needing sign to communicate).

Look at me, I'm not a skilled ASL signer, like the rest of the deaf individuals, I'm more Signed English. I try my best as I know how in order to communicate with them. I'm not going to rejected the Deaf Community just because I do not signed in ASL, I treat them the same dignity, respect, and courtesy that I show to others. If a deaf person doesn't understand me, I'll rephrase it. If I don't understand them, They'll rehrase it too.

But, from what I've been reading by you, You seem that you don't want nothing to do with the Deaf Community because that now you have a CI, You would rather to fit yourself more in the hearing world than both worlds. It sounds like you're rejecting them, not them rejecting you.

Not all deaf need sign and it should not be something held against them. It is one thing when one deals with the Deaf community that requires sign. Under those circumstances, I be more than happy to try sign (whether I be good at it or not...a whole different story).

My beef with that fateful day was the total rejection of me without even trying to understand why I didn't know sign or why I fitted into the hearing world. There wasn't any attempt to communicate...just judgement from what they thought. I can say that it is much better today like those in my church who are deaf and sign. I have been to one of their socials and it was very interesting to me watching all the hands flying around (I could grasp some of what they were saying but I'm lost otherwise...) Some would lipread very well and I had good conversations with them. It was great but it is not my world...I have been in the hearing world for too long. I just haven't felt the need to really get into the deaf community. Who knows, I may decide to learn it one day but not right now.

 

[Cheri]

sr171soars,

Understood! Thanks for having the time to reply back.

 

[gnulinuxman]

Nope, that is not it. It is really simple. My entire world is hearing (my wife & kids plus extended family plus social circle plus church...you get the idea). I don't have the time nor energy to spend time learning sign. I have never needed it and why start now. Also, who do I use it with? Learning sign is like learning a new language. I believe languages are use it or lose it affairs. The older you get the harder it gets. As for being uncomfortable, that is not a problem as I have been around the deaf many times over the years. I'm cool with it...no big deal. Most of the deaf I had dealt with were 'tweeners too and we all got along fine (not needing sign to communicate).

I don't dispute that.

Not all deaf need sign and it should not be something held against them. It is one thing when one deals with the Deaf community that requires sign. Under those circumstances, I be more than happy to try sign (whether I be good at it or not...a whole different story).

OK.

My beef with that fateful day was the total rejection of me without even trying to understand why I didn't know sign or why I fitted into the hearing world. There wasn't any attempt to communicate...just judgement from what they thought. I can say that it is much better today like those in my church who are deaf and sign. I have been to one of their socials and it was very interesting to me watching all the hands flying around (I could grasp some of what they were saying but I'm lost otherwise...) Some would lipread very well and I had good conversations with them. It was great but it is not my world...I have been in the hearing world for too long. I just haven't felt the need to really get into the deaf community. Who knows, I may decide to learn it one day but not right now.

OK, but please understand that many of those people have failed with oral training and are either jealous or mad at you because they thought you were sucking up to the hearing people. In an ideal world, that wouldn't matter and all people would do both, but unfortunately, some people do get jealous of deaf people who can speak and lipread, and others are just plain mad because it didn't work for them and they're thinking you're sucking up.

I've needed signing and I'll continue to do it with my current gf (she's HoH with declining hearing and doesn't want to risk having to depend on lipreading).

 

[Cloggy]

GNU..

With your computerskills...

Can you find out the percentage of deaf/hoh people that use sign..??

 

[sr171soars]

...
OK, but please understand that many of those people have failed with oral training and are either jealous or mad at you because they thought you were sucking up to the hearing people. In an ideal world, that wouldn't matter and all people would do both, but unfortunately, some people do get jealous of deaf people who can speak and lipread, and others are just plain mad because it didn't work for them and they're thinking you're sucking up.

I've needed signing and I'll continue to do it with my current gf (she's HoH with declining hearing and doesn't want to risk having to depend on lipreading).

Yea, I have thought about jealousy bit but not about "sucking up" to the hearing world (it never occurred for me to act that way). I always had the idea "if a shoe fits, put it on" if you know what I mean. It took me a long time to understand how difficult that is for most deaf HOH types to even function as a hearing type (and accepted as such) let alone the Deaf to do that. I paid my dues to join hearing society on their terms (not easy mind you). I count my blessings everyday...

We're cool gnu and thanks.

BTW - I can understand your need to sign and more power to you...each to their own.

 

[gnulinuxman]

Yea, I have thought about jealousy bit but not about "sucking up" to the hearing world (it never occurred for me to act that way). I always had the idea "if a shoe fits, put it on" if you know what I mean. It took me a long time to understand how difficult that is for most deaf HOH types to even function as a hearing type (and accepted as such) let alone the Deaf to do that. I paid my dues to join hearing society on their terms (not easy mind you). I count my blessings everyday..

We're cool gnu and thanks.

BTW - I can understand your need to sign and more power to you...each to their own.

Good I also don't think you're sucking up, but some people think you are.

I myself am glad I can both sign and speak 2 oral languages (English and Spanish). (So, people, I am NOT against oral speech, especially since I CHOSE to learn a second oral language...)

 

[gnulinuxman]

GNU..

With your computerskills...

Can you find out the percentage of deaf/hoh people that use sign..??

What does that have to do with my computer skills?

 

[Cloggy]

What does that have to do with my computer skills?

Disliking Windows shows you have far above normal computer skills. You know how to do searches. You might have knowledge of more search-engines than I. You might know how to find it...

 

[BearBeauty]

you guys have good points. I have a question.. What if you're like me, and you use lipreading/talking with hearing people and sign langauge around other deaf people?

that's what I've been doing most of my life. Sometimes felt frustrated because people didn't understand that because I am deaf doesn't mean I don't understand. I've had that same old "i'm sorry" and walk away that was described, more times than I can count.

I can understand the attitudes the some deaf have about hearing, and some hearing have about deaf. We have to respect each other's choices. If hearing people don't want to learn sign language, we can't tell them to. I don't force anyone who interacts with me to learn.. it's all up to them. I never asked my boyfriend to learn sign language.. and here he is learning it.

I have grown up with a family that used oral with me all my life... And I love that because it gives me the necessary skills to communicate in the hearing world.

 

[shel90]

About why I call some hearing people stupid..

I grew up mainstreamed and around hearing people. All my life I had to battle to prove myself to so many people that I am a smart and capable individual who has the same rights and priveledges as they do.

I worked for an insurance company with hearing people. People basically treated me I was not worthy of their time nor effort. I would try to make conversations with my co-workers but usually they would have this frozen smiles on their faces and just keep on nodding their heads or answer my questions. As soon as I would leave, they would start conversations wtih other people and chat away. None of them ever came up to me just to say hi and start a conversation. It was always me who had to initiate it and usually they were short-lived.

In school, I was picked on daily about my deafness, had teachers tell me that I am so special or I am so smart cuz I can speak so good for a deaf child, and then in high school, I was rarely invited to any social events nor asked to dances because of my inablility to keep up with large group conversations.

I had to deal with hearing people who treated me like a 2nd class citizen or were not interested in making the effort to communicate with me even though I was a skilled lipreader. It was "too much work" for them.

Yes, there were a few hearies that gave me the time of the day and I appreciate them but it was 90% of the time that I had to deal with hearing people who treated me like I had the plague or asking me dumb questions like "How do u raise kids if u cant hear or how did you get a driver's license or can you read and write?" Other times, I was ignored like for example, at my old job, I would sit at a table during lunch and my hearing co workers would all go to sit at another table or if I join them, they would give each other the look as if to say "oh shit..." so I usually ate my lunch alone while reading a book cuz I knew I would do better than them in my future but inside, it still hurted.

Sorry, if I offended any hearing people by calling hearing people dumb but it is hard not to refrain myself.

I dont hate hearing people in general...I am even married to one but it is the hearing people who looks down on deaf people simply because we cant hear are the ones I dont have respect for.

I am very happy to be in a signing environment and around deaf people most of the time. I cant imagine going back to the hearing world or a nonsigning environment ever again. I did my duties so now it is my turn to have the opportunity to participate fully in a conversation without having people roll their eyes or say "I will tell u later" when I ask them what everyone is saying and to feel like my opinion matters.

That's my perception of the hearing world.

 

[jillio]

From what I've read in here, I would slide with gnulinuxman, He seems to have a lot of knowledge about "feelings" along in Deaf people, even through he isn't deaf himself. It all has to do with opening up your heart and understand the feelings why the deaf feels the way they are feeling. Some people think it's all about attitude, What about the ones who have CI, those who are hearing, They're no better than deaf people. I just wish that everyone would treat each others the same level of respect.

In my personal opinion, I've seen so much, I've walked the path of life with some hearing people who doesn't have the time of the day to try to talk to a deaf person, I've told a several people that I'm deaf because this person would be speaking so fast for me to read this person's lips, I would get a respond, as "I'm sorry" and walked away. They don't recognized that what they did, offended me, because they haven't gave it a chance at least try to communicate. I'm so sick of being treated like second class. Do I have to be hearing in order to be treat fairly? It's bullshit!

GREAT POST, Cheri! I've experienced more hostility from the hearies than from the Deaf. As a mom of a deaf son, I get plenty grief from the hearing world becasue I do support sign and Deaf culture. I fully understand and support the fact that my son, by his birthright and communication choice is a member of that culture, and rather than limit him to the hearing culture because his parents were both hearing, I chose to expose not only him, but myself to that culture as well. I was welcomed with open arms from the very first time I approached a deaf adult to ask what, from their experience, I needed to do for my deaf son. Because I have made the choice to allow my son to decide what his needs are and how they can best be met (after all, he is the one who lives with his deafness, not me) I have experienced hostility for my choices. Trust me, I did plent of research, and even though my son is grown, continue to do research, so my decisions were well informed ones. I am completely convinced that the path I choose for my son and myself has been the correct one, and if there are hearing people out there who disagree with me, that's their problem. I know my son is a well adjusted, happy young adult, and if IDing as deaf is what has given him that happiness, then I am satisfied that I have done the job I was supposed to do as a parent. After all, isn't the goal of all parents to raise a happy healthy child?

 

[Cloggy]

......... After all, isn't the goal of all parents to raise a happy healthy child?

Absolutely.

And reading the stories of you all, I am convinced that the world's attitude is not going to change. Websites like these will only educate people that visit it. Around me I still do not see a different attitude towards deafness.

And sometimes I wonder why CI isn't welcomed more for small children.
I realise one is comfortable with one's deafness, one has (finally) found a place for deafness in ones life, but hardly ever do I see a remark of a deaf person that they are happy that the child does not have to go through the same hardship.
Sure, you would want for the child what you have discovered yourself, but is it realistisch to think this will happen.

Isn't it it more effective to reach out to these children when they are older? They very likely will want to know about deafness. Isn't that the time to welcome them, and educate them.
This is what we have in mind for Lotte. She will be able to communicate with everyone in the family (Dutch) and our friends (Dutch, English, Norwegian) and her friends (Dutch, Norwegian)
When she's older, we will make sure that she get's to know the deaf culture around her - if she wishes.

 

[gnulinuxman]

[...]
Sorry, if I offended any hearing people by calling hearing people dumb but it is hard not to refrain myself.

I dont hate hearing people in general...I am even married to one but it is the hearing people who looks down on deaf people simply because we cant hear are the ones I dont have respect for.

I am very happy to be in a signing environment and around deaf people most of the time. I cant imagine going back to the hearing world or a nonsigning environment ever again. I did my duties so now it is my turn to have the opportunity to participate fully in a conversation without having people roll their eyes or say "I will tell u later" when I ask them what everyone is saying and to feel like my opinion matters.

That's my perception of the hearing world.

Well, I can't speak for other hearing people, but I can say as a hearing person that I'm not offended by your post, and I can see where you're coming from. I agree that more hearing people need to learn to sign or at least learn to respect deaf people and what deaf people are capable of.

And why not coin the term "hearing-and-dumb" for those who don't get it?

 

[Southern]

OKAY so wow a lot of emotions in this thread. So far my experience with Deaf have all been positive. I have received no hostility. If i did though i am quite capible of taking up for myself. I am learning sign and do quite well with it. I enjoy it very much. I can get why some Deaf don't care for hearing based on their experiences. By the same token i could dislike straight people who treat me a gay man as sub human, or hate straight people all together for gay bashing and killing gay men. I don't though. I have had to deal with taunts and rude comments my whole life in school and so on and i don't "act gay". Deaf have every right to have a problem with how they have been treated but do not have the right to treat me bad, whom they do not know, because i am hearing. I am not the person who treated you badly. Be angry with them. as well you should be, but don't take that out on me.
gnu..... um i have read the back and forth between you and soars and it is quite puzzling to me. It reminds me of a former straight friend of mine who decided to tell me what gay culture was like. To tell me what it was to be a gay man, just because 2 of his uncles and one of his aunts are gay. I told him you have no concept what it is to be in my culture because you are not gay. Go sleep with a man and be harrassed for most of your life and be hated for the person you love and then come tell me what it is. You have no ability to even begin to tell me what it is to be gay. Just because you hung out with gays and some gays that are in your family. Makes no sense. Next you will be telling your girlfriend you know what it is to be a woman because you have a mother. I see what you are saying to soars and the same thing comes to mind. HE is deaf there are no two ways about it. Whether he signs or not does not change that fact. I have many Deaf friends myself. And although they accept me into their world i am not a part of it, because i am not deaf. I can have an opinion on some things but most i cannot because i am not Deaf. signing, oral, lip reading, writing everything down to communicate. These are all aspects of the deaf experience. Not just signing. You seem to be around Deaf people who consider those who don't sign less deaf than those who can sign. Just like there are some black people who say that a particular black person isn't black because they come from the islands, (i have heard this on more than one occasion) My point, (yes i have one LOL) is that you may know a lot about Deaf people, you may be around and in the Deaf community a great deal, as am i. There is not a day that goes by that i don't talk to my deaf friends and not a week that goes by that i don't see them. And i am pretty good with sign. By a lot of what you have said in these posts that would make me more deaf or big D DEAF than soars. i don't think anyone would think that makes sense what so ever. Just as my former friend had no abilty to tell me what it is to be a gay man, you really have no abilty to tell soars, a Deaf man what it is to be Deaf. thanks so much. =) and no i don't feel any ill will toward gnu =)

 

[Lillys dad]

Very well said Southern!

I also agree 100% with SRs post concerning his visit at Galudet

 

[jillio]

Southern,
I think you missed gnu's point. He is not claiming to know what it is to be deaf. He has never claimed to be a deaf individual. He is making the point that Deaf culture is based primarily on linguistic considerations. One's language determines cultural norms and values. He has experienced Deaf culture by proxy through that linguistic avenue. As have I as the mother of a Deaf son. I do not know what it is to be without auditory function. However, having been exposed and participated in Deaf culture, as well as having raised a Deaf child, do have an empathy and an understanding of what it means to rely on the visual for interpretation of the world around one. Further, having served as my son's advocate for 18 years of his life, and continuing to do so in some situations today, I have an understanding of the difficulties experienced by misperceptions by the hearing community regarding those who ID as Deaf and rely on ASL as their primary communication mode. As a signer, I also understand the differences in perception that are the direct result of linguistic differences, and have spent a great deal of my time attempting to explain those differences to many hearing people. Dealing with deafness on a daily basis in an intimate way does not make one deaf, but it does allow one to gain insight and perspective that most hearing people are unable to achieve by encounters with deafness from the outside parameters. My home, for instance, is the home of a Deaf person, because it had to be that way for my son's benefit. As a consequence, my experience more closely relates to the experience of the Deaf than one who has not modified their daily life to accomodate deafness.

You are correct in your statement that no one can tell you what it is to be a gay man unless they are gay themselves. Unless you are gay, those experience are not internalized and do not become a part of your day to day existence. However, straight individuals can, and many do, empathize and understand what it is to be a gay man in a straight society.