true perception of the hearing world?

As I read through all the posts in this thread, I was reminded of many of the discussions that have come up in my Deaf History/Culture class this semester.

I know that the original topic here was perception differences between the hearing and Deaf worlds... but if I could digress for just a moment, I'd like to examine the argument from a slightly different angle.

If I were to ask the question "In your opinion, what does it take to be considered a "full member" of the Deaf community?", do you think I'd get many different answers, or many similar answers? Based on what I've read (both here and for class), I'm guessing it would be many different answers, because I think to BE Deaf means different things to different people. But guess what? Being different is OK! I know in American society, we seem to have gotten away from that in recent years... but I'm a firm believer that there is strength in diversity.

Let's examine a few aspects of Deaf culture for a moment (and please, correct me if I mis-state anything as fact here):

In the Deaf community, there are several "factions" in different "camps" concerning controversial topics like: oralism vs. signing, cochlear implants, views on interpreters, ASL vs. SEE vs. MCE vs. any other signing method, Gallaudet presidents, social security benefits, deaf education, etc. The list goes on, and on, and on. There also appears to be a hierarchy concerning how Deaf someone is, depending on whether they were born deaf, whether they came to it later in life, whether they were brought up orally, etc.

The bottom line is: it seems (and again, this is my "Outsider Looking In" perspective) that within the Deaf community, so much energy seems to be spent focusing on what differences there are among Deaf people, that some people lose sight of what makes us all alike. Granted, as a hearing person, I know that I will likely never understand all the "hows" and "whys" behind a lot of these issues, no matter how hard I try... but I can say that these things are very visible from the outside... and if an outsider can see them, can't those of you on the inside see them, as well, and see that until there is more unity within the Deaf community, there will always be strife?

It's the very same in hearing culture. Heck, just take American culture as an example. We're supposed to be this "melting pot" nation, that over the years has incorporated traditions from several cultures around the world, etc. And yet, we are not the same. Politically, people are different. Religiously/spiritually, people have different views. We have different views about how to raise our children, about education, etc. All these differences are just fine and dandy; unless someone begins stating that THEIR way of doing things is the BEST way to do things, and they start trying to sway other people to their way of thinking.

Whatever happened to respecting other peoples' views that differ from your own? If people are going to insist that we live as an all-or-nothing society, then I fear for the future, I really do.

Absolutely, there are areas of miscommunication between the hearing and Deaf worlds. It's incumbent on both sides to do their part to bridge the gaps when possible, and try to understand as much as possible about one another. To be honest, I think there's work to be done on many different levels (internally within the Deaf community, internally within the hearing world, etc.), but what we're really talking about here is a Respect issue, at its most base level.

Here's another thought-provoking question: Why do you suppose some Deaf people feel more comfortable only socializing with other Deaf people? Is it simply a convenience of communication issue? Hmm, I'm sure that has a great deal to do with it (on both sides), but I find myself pondering the WHY behind the formation of sub-cultures and cultures. Ultimately, I think people feel most comfortable around people that are "like them". So to some degree, I can understand why some Deaf people wouldn't want to let "outsiders" join "the club", if those outsiders don't fit their mold of what it means to actually be a member. Because once that happens, you cease being around people "like you", and you're forced to either A) relax your definition of what "like you" means, B) accept people for their differences, or C) look elsewhere for people "like you", and abandon your original group.

Hmm.

Ok, my brain hurts now. More later, I'm sure!
 
InTheGenes, you have some very good points. But just a couple of things i would like to clarify:

First, age of on-set has nothing to do with how deaf someone is. However, it often has quite a bit to do with how they ID culturally. For someone who is post lingually deafened, even if they become proficient in sign, they have developed a language base of oral/auditory communication. That is, if they are English speaking, they developed a native language base of English, and therefore, their perceptions are based on that language. When one develops skills in a second language, those skills are based on the original language base, and therefore, the second language does not influence perception in the way that the native language influences perception. I am hearing, my native language is spoken English. I am also a profiecient signer. However, my perceptions are based on my native language. My son is prelingually, profoundly deaf. His first language is manual ASL. He has developed English skills, however his English skills are based on his native language. I perceive the world and my environment based on an oral form of language, he perceives his world based on a manual form of language. We can each communicate in the other's native language--still our perceptions of the world differ. Language is the defining feature of any culture. It develops from communication needs specific to the environment in which one lives. If your environment consists mostly of the visual form of stimuli, then the language develops accordingly. In that way, language develops in a way that permits the individual to communicate and share that which they personally experience. Sameness of experience is the cohesiveness of culture, but language remains the defining feature because that sameness of experience cannot be communicated without it.

Regarding your references to hearing culture, and the melting pot theory: you must keep in mind that historically the deaf have been placed in a situaltion of forced assimillation. You refered to the very problem, yet from a hearing perspective. The Deaf have, historically been told, both covertly and overtly, that the language of the hearing was superior to their own, that the hearing experience was superior to their own, that methodology used in the education of hearing children was superior to that used in the education of deaf children, and as a result, have been perceived as lesser than the hearing individual. They have been perceived as second class, and have experienced discrimination based on this faulty perception. Unfortunately, this still continues on a widespread basis, and is often projected by those who claim not to encompass such attitudes, just as those who claim to hold no racially based prejudice subscribe to and act on unconsciously held stereotypical ideas.

Because these historical injustices have been peretratated on the Deaf by the hearing, it is completely understandable that some Deaf prefer to socialize with other Deaf. It is a matter of trust and of comfort.
 
Jillio,

Thanks for your reply.

As for the comment about age-of-onset, you put it much more eloquently than I did, but that's exactly what I meant. I was just typing as quickly as I could to get all the thoughts out of my head, that I didn't take the time to spell it out, as you did. :)

As for forced assimilation, I know all about that. I'm a minority, myself, and have been marginalized by society at large, on several occasions. The only concern I have about what you posted, was the last part, where you say that based on "historical injustices [that] have been peretratated on the Deaf by the hearing, it is completely understandable that some Deaf prefer to socialize with other Deaf. It is a matter of trust and of comfort."

Empathizing with the reasons WHY this may be true for some is all well and good, as long as not ALL hearing people are lumped into the same group as the ignorant/oppressive/etc. As you yourself can attest, we're not all perpetuators of injustices against Deaf people. Caution and comfort with "your own kind" are fine, as long as it doesn't manifest itself as xenophobic hysteria. I've often felt that a lot of deep-seated hatred against some minorities (blacks, gays, etc.) has - at it's core - FEAR. There are some groups that take their "trust and comfort" with their own too far, and form groups of other "like-minded" individuals, who then go on to espouse and preach hate and/or intolerance.

My concern is that some Deaf people who've had bad experiences with some hearing people (cops, interpreters, people in restaurants, whatever) don't "give up" on the rest of us. Otherwise, it's almost like reverse discrimination.

Obviously, I'm not saying that's what I think YOU'RE saying... just putting that out there. :)
 
Well my Dad is native american, my mom is a Jew and i am gay. Deep seeded fear? mmmmhhhmmm the two minorities i have in me were almost exterminated, then add the gay thing and you have Mathew Sheppherd and Barry Whinchle. I have a reason to, but i realize that not all people are like that. I don't treat people like i know they want to hurt me. i see people as people. But i know how to carry myself and i am cautious. I think a lot of Deaf have that in them as well. As for the ones that are prejudice against hearing well. hhhmmm there is a lot to be said about that. All i will say is it is sad you limit yourself like that.
 
jillio said:
Southern,
I think you missed gnu's point. He is not claiming to know what it is to be deaf. He has never claimed to be a deaf individual. He is making the point that Deaf culture is based primarily on linguistic considerations. One's language determines cultural norms and values. He has experienced Deaf culture by proxy through that linguistic avenue. As have I as the mother of a Deaf son. I do not know what it is to be without auditory function. However, having been exposed and participated in Deaf culture, as well as having raised a Deaf child, do have an empathy and an understanding of what it means to rely on the visual for interpretation of the world around one. Further, having served as my son's advocate for 18 years of his life, and continuing to do so in some situations today, I have an understanding of the difficulties experienced by misperceptions by the hearing community regarding those who ID as Deaf and rely on ASL as their primary communication mode. As a signer, I also understand the differences in perception that are the direct result of linguistic differences, and have spent a great deal of my time attempting to explain those differences to many hearing people. Dealing with deafness on a daily basis in an intimate way does not make one deaf, but it does allow one to gain insight and perspective that most hearing people are unable to achieve by encounters with deafness from the outside parameters. My home, for instance, is the home of a Deaf person, because it had to be that way for my son's benefit. As a consequence, my experience more closely relates to the experience of the Deaf than one who has not modified their daily life to accomodate deafness.

You are correct in your statement that no one can tell you what it is to be a gay man unless they are gay themselves. Unless you are gay, those experience are not internalized and do not become a part of your day to day existence. However, straight individuals can, and many do, empathize and understand what it is to be a gay man in a straight society.
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No i got what he was saying and i truely have to disagree with some of your points. for instance, I, (as we all know LOL), am very proud to be southern. I love it. My family has been in the south for 261 years. My family was southern before this country was a country, you cannot get much more southern than me. I have a thick southern draw. Not hillbilly redneck kind but thick none the less. My brother, who has the same parents, grew up in the same house, does not have the same thick draw that i do. His is barely there. i also use way more southern idioms than he does and my dialect as a whole is much more southern, and he is older than me. Am i more southern than he? No we are just the same. Our speach does not make us southern This relates to the linguistics that you mentioned. Just because some one does not know sign, knows very little, or knows a lot does not make them any less Deaf. He said things to that effect to soars on more than one occasion. The impression i got from him was "how dare you be Deaf and not know sign!" This coming from a hearing person. He seemed appaulled. I urge you to read all of his posts back to back and you will see what i mean. This goes back to the "strong Deaf weak Deaf" big D little d, strong ASL weak ASL thing. It makes no sense. soars is Deaf whether he knows sign or not and no one should make it appear in anyway shape or form that he is less of a Deaf person for not knowing sign. I totally get the empathy thing. I empathise with my straight friends, black friends, Latino friends but i am not any of those things and do not begin to tell them they are less of who they are because they don't listen to Hip hop or know who Jerry Rivera is. Who am i to say that? He seemed, and i stress seemed, to be on a soap box pointing his finger at soars. The entire time i was reading it thinking who are you?? where do you get off telling this man these things. Again i go back to one of my original statements and some of what you have said regarding linguistics applies. I have become rather proficient with sign, although i have a lot to learn. Because i am with my Deaf friends every week, because i sign every week. Because i go to Deaf events by the linguistics argument (although i don't see us as arguing just a figure of speach) the sign argument, this makes me more Deaf than soars and that is ludachris. Because my signing ability, and i only say this because he said he doesn't at all, is above that of soars by gnu i am more culturally deaf than soars. Make sense? no it doesn't. That is why i said what i did, gnu gives the impression that he feels soars is not culturally Deaf because he doesn't sign and doesn't feel the need to, nor does he feel the need to be around Deaf. on the flip side of that same coin i can only think that gnu by vertu of such comments can only feel that he is more culturally deaf than soars. Again this makes no sense to me. Soars IS deaf and that is all there is to it. There should be no discussion on that subject.
WOW I talk a lot! LMAO!!!
 
Ummm...I see lots posts since I last posted in this thread. Nice to know that I have that kind of pull to generate all this...;)

Southern - You summed it up nicely by basically getting to the gist of the matter to state what I have been saying all along..."I'm deaf" regardless how I live in the world. A very simple and profound truth...at least one would think so. But as we have seen here in this thread and others...it is not always the case.

I will be the first to admit it makes a world of difference how one lives (being deaf) relative to the hearing world in how one perceives it. For some, it is no big deal and live a dual reality while for others it is a formidable barrier. Therein lies all the "us vs them" mentality and differentiation between degrees of deafness (what I call the hierarchy of deafhood). It really confounds me that being very successful in the hearing world plays into the idea that I forfeited my right to be considered "deaf". While things aren't as bad as when I was younger...the more things seem to change the more they remain the same. It seems one can't win whichever way you come out of the barrel. So, I guess I can always go back to the maxim..."Life ain't fair" :D
 
Southern said:
No i got what he was saying and i truely have to disagree with some of your points. for instance, I, (as we all know LOL), am very proud to be southern. I love it. My family has been in the south for 261 years. My family was southern before this country was a country, you cannot get much more southern than me. I have a thick southern draw. Not hillbilly redneck kind but thick none the less. My brother, who has the same parents, grew up in the same house, does not have the same thick draw that i do. His is barely there. i also use way more southern idioms than he does and my dialect as a whole is much more southern, and he is older than me. Am i more southern than he? No we are just the same. Our speach does not make us southern This relates to the linguistics that you mentioned. Just because some one does not know sign, knows very little, or knows a lot does not make them any less Deaf. He said things to that effect to soars on more than one occasion. The impression i got from him was "how dare you be Deaf and not know sign!" This coming from a hearing person. He seemed appaulled. I urge you to read all of his posts back to back and you will see what i mean. This goes back to the "strong Deaf weak Deaf" big D little d, strong ASL weak ASL thing. It makes no sense. soars is Deaf whether he knows sign or not and no one should make it appear in anyway shape or form that he is less of a Deaf person for not knowing sign. I totally get the empathy thing. I empathise with my straight friends, black friends, Latino friends but i am not any of those things and do not begin to tell them they are less of who they are because they don't listen to Hip hop or know who Jerry Rivera is. Who am i to say that? He seemed, and i stress seemed, to be on a soap box pointing his finger at soars. The entire time i was reading it thinking who are you?? where do you get off telling this man these things. Again i go back to one of my original statements and some of what you have said regarding linguistics applies. I have become rather proficient with sign, although i have a lot to learn. Because i am with my Deaf friends every week, because i sign every week. Because i go to Deaf events by the linguistics argument (although i don't see us as arguing just a figure of speach) the sign argument, this makes me more Deaf than soars and that is ludachris. Because my signing ability, and i only say this because he said he doesn't at all, is above that of soars by gnu i am more culturally deaf than soars. Make sense? no it doesn't. That is why i said what i did, gnu gives the impression that he feels soars is not culturally Deaf because he doesn't sign and doesn't feel the need to, nor does he feel the need to be around Deaf. on the flip side of that same coin i can only think that gnu by vertu of such comments can only feel that he is more culturally deaf than soars. Again this makes no sense to me. Soars IS deaf and that is all there is to it. There should be no discussion on that subject.
WOW I talk a lot! LMAO!!!
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Actually, your southern drawl (or your brother's lack of it) is considered a dialect of the English language, not a separate language as is ASL. And I still maintain that one is not culturally Deaf unless one participates in Deaf culture. In order to that, one must sign.Soar chooses not to participate in Deaf culture--doesn't mean that he is any less deaf from a medical standpoint, but it does mean that he is not IDing himself as culturally Deaf.
 
Then answer me this, by my being able to sign, and the fact that i am with Deaf weekly and message them daily, that i am in the Deaf community so much.... am I more "culturally Deaf" than soars???? And if so how can I, a hearing person who has known deaf people for only several months be more "Deaf" notice i used the big D, than a deaf person?
 
From my understanding (someone please correct me if I'm wrong), the Deaf community does not look at deafness in terms of one's audiogram. Instead, they look at one's knowledge of/willingness to learn sign and a person's association with the community as a whole. For example, I know functionally hard of hearing individuals who identify themselves as big "D" because they've used ASL and have been a part of the Deaf community for many years. While they may not be "deaf" in terms of their hearing loss, they are most certainly Deaf when it comes to the Deaf community and Deaf culture. Therefore, a functionally HoH person who signs and participates in the Deaf community would be considered more "deaf" than someone who is profoundly or totally deaf (small "d") who does not. Degree of hearing has nothing to do with one's identity as being big "D" as opposed to small "d." Even people with normal hearing can be considered big "D."
 
Southern said:
Then answer me this, by my being able to sign, and the fact that i am with Deaf weekly and message them daily, that i am in the Deaf community so much.... am I more "culturally Deaf" than soars???? And if so how can I, a hearing person who has known deaf people for only several months be more "Deaf" notice i used the big D, than a deaf person?
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You can, as a signer, but hearing person, participate in Deaf culture. This allows you do develop empathy and understanding beyond that of someone who is exposed only minimally, or not at all. However, to be truly culturally Deaf requires a perspective and a way of perceiving that comes only to those whose first language is sign. It, as I've said before, linguisticlly dependant.
 
And, since you added the analogy to the discussion, communicating with, associating with, or even having as a best friend, a gay person does not make me a member of the Gay Community. It makes me a straight person who participates in and is exposed to gay individuals, and therefore, allows me more intimate exposure. That leads to increased empathy and understanding of the particular difficulties experienced by those who are homosexual, but it doesn't make me more gay than any other straight person. Maybe using this analogy will help.
 
jillio said:
And, since you added the analogy to the discussion, communicating with, associating with, or even having as a best friend, a gay person does not make me a member of the Gay Community. It makes me a straight person who participates in and is exposed to gay individuals, and therefore, allows me more intimate exposure. That leads to increased empathy and understanding of the particular difficulties experienced by those who are homosexual, but it doesn't make me more gay than any other straight person. Maybe using this analogy will help.
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I think the real difference here (between the gay community and the Deaf community) is that the gay community does not have a culture of its own.
 
I have moderate hearing loss and was mainstreamed (never learned sign or interacted with other deaf people). I see how and why deaf people can put hearing people off.

It can be something simple as deaf person making too much noise. One time in a quiet study area, a deaf person was spinning a glass around on top of a table. He was clueless as to how much ruckus he was causing. Since you cant tell if someone is deaf by looking at them, hearing people just assumed he was an obnoxious idiot. Its the same with eating. Some people have pet peeves with noisy eaters and deaf people can be pretty noisy when eating.

Deaf people talking is another one. Some people think the deaf accent is a cute little quirk, while it annoys others or make them uncomfortable. The deaf accent isnt exactly pretty. It can make you sound mentally challenged or intoxicated. This is what makes ignorant hearing people assume deaf people are less intelligent. I have it and was teased in grade school for it. To this day, Im still self concious about my speech.

After awhile things like this can make some of the deaf people say "fuck the hearing people". Who wants to be paranoid all the time about being too noisy or being assumed to be retarded from the sound of your voice? Its easier to be around like minded people. Notice how immigrants tend to hang with themselves? It comes down with people being impatient and not taking the time to understand one another. That has nothing to do with deafness or anything.
 
Doug5 said:
I have moderate hearing loss and was mainstreamed (never learned sign or interacted with other deaf people). I see how and why deaf people can put hearing people off.

It can be something simple as deaf person making too much noise. One time in a quiet study area, a deaf person was spinning a glass around on top of a table. He was clueless as to how much ruckus he was causing. Since you cant tell if someone is deaf by looking at them, hearing people just assumed he was an obnoxious idiot. Its the same with eating. Some people have pet peeves with noisy eaters and deaf people can be pretty noisy when eating.

Deaf people talking is another one. Some people think the deaf accent is a cute little quirk, while it annoys others or make them uncomfortable. The deaf accent isnt exactly pretty. It can make you sound mentally challenged or intoxicated. This is what makes ignorant hearing people assume deaf people are less intelligent. I have it and was teased in grade school for it. To this day, Im still self concious about my speech.

After awhile things like this can make some of the deaf people say "fuck the hearing people". Who wants to be paranoid all the time about being too noisy or being assumed to be retarded from the sound of your voice? Its easier to be around like minded people. Notice how immigrants tend to hang with themselves? It comes down with people being impatient and not taking the time to understand one another. That has nothing to do with deafness or anything.
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yea that reminds me...I have had hearing people show their annoyance at me and I wouldnt know why. Someone told me later that I make too much noise at times. After that, I did become paranoid for a while about not making too much noise in public but then it became such a burden so right now, I do not give a damn. If whatever noise bothers them, too bad for them. They have to accept and put up with it. LOL!
 
yeah, my college room mate would bitch about how loud Id drank a soda.

Gawd! thats the one thing I hate about some hearing people. Theyll judge as a noisy clod without considering the fact you cant hear the noise youre creating.
 
Hear Again said:
I think the real difference here (between the gay community and the Deaf community) is that the gay community does not have a culture of its own.
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This is very true. I was just using the same analogy that Southern had used as a way of explanation.
 
I agree with the linguistic end of what perceiving the world different. visual vs aural. It does make a difference for sure which frustrates me to no end that I will never perceive the deaf world as deaf do as I desire to be able to. I want to sign like coda. I'd be happy with hoh status if I could. I wish I had deaf parents that taught me asl first. I hate having spoken english as my first language. However, with that said, I would want to be able to function in the hearing world and be able to be fluent in english. But ASL which is different that sign language as the hearing world knows it, is strictly a deaf language. Anything other than ASL(in usa of course) is not a language just mce. I would love to think in sign and not hear words. ASL rocks as far as I am concerned. But I must admit as much as I would desire this I wouldn't like the 2nd rate citizen placed on me as the deaf deal with it. I have very sensitive ears to noises (funny conversations sound like garble half the time) but other noises easily irritate me. I don't think I should be rude and tell a deaf person hey you are making too much noise. But if I respectfully bring this to your attention, it would be nice if you would respectfully try to lessen the noise. Because you can't hear you have no idea how annoying sounds can be. We have so much noise in this country to deal with as it is. Cell phones, planes, trains, bulldozers, chainsaws, car horns, people yelling,dogs barking that is a lot of stimuli to deal with. So I would like to know as long as I respectfully brought your noise level to your attention, would you respect me back and try to lower it? I don't think that is unreasonable. I wish that I was HOH and had to have hearing aids to hear because then when I wanted peace and quiet I could have it. Anyways I think deaf should cautiously choose their hearing friends wisely but with an open mind. And I think deaf should be willing to teach hearing deep true ASL if they really want hearing to grasp their culture with respect. I don't think it should be a private club thing. I notice alot of deaf will sign asl with other deaf and sign english with hearies. ASL is beautiful share it with the world. :)
 
I'm bad about sounds annoying me. Especially in the morning. I cannot hear music or anything loud. Music will set me off, give me a head ache and put me in a bad mood. If i am at work in the morning and some one is being loud i tell them to stop, nicely though even though i want to scream at them. Although this woman had a tambarine (sp) at work one time to get her team modivated and pumped up for work. I couldn't care less in the afternoon. Well she did it in the morning and i cussed her out. yelling and all that. i just can't deal with that stuff in the mornings. some one hearing telling you that may just be my sort of thing were certain noises or volume or time of day annoy you.
 
Southern said:
I'm bad about sounds annoying me. Especially in the morning. I cannot hear music or anything loud. Music will set me off, give me a head ache and put me in a bad mood. If i am at work in the morning and some one is being loud i tell them to stop, nicely though even though i want to scream at them. Although this woman had a tambarine (sp) at work one time to get her team modivated and pumped up for work. I couldn't care less in the afternoon. Well she did it in the morning and i cussed her out. yelling and all that. i just can't deal with that stuff in the mornings. some one hearing telling you that may just be my sort of thing were certain noises or volume or time of day annoy you.
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That is fine and I understand where u are coming from. Just wish more hearing people can understand that we, deaf people, dont realize how loud we are being and we are not doing it to be rude. That's all.
 
Southern,

Even though I've had severe to profound hearing loss for the past 11 years (I'm now totally deaf because of bilateral CIs), I was also the kind of person who was annoyed at hearing loud sounds in the morning. In fact, I never put my HAs on first thing in the morning. Instead, I'd wait for about 30 minutes to an hour so I had some quiet time to myself. The same is also true with my CIs. I like to have a little peace and quiet before putting my processors on. I'm not a morning person to begin with and dealing with extranneous noise (no matter how loud or soft) puts me on edge. My hearing isn't very good in the morning, so I'd rather give myself some quiet time and a chance to wake up before putting my "ears" on. :)

When I lost my hearing, my ENT told me that I could learn to regulate the volume of my voice by feeling vibrations in the throat. The louder my voice is, the stronger the vibration. The quieter my voice is, the weaker the vibration. Just thought I'd throw that out there for what it's worth. I don't know if that's possible for all deaf people to do, but I thought it was an interesting comment on my ENT's part nevertheless.
 
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