This woman hears worse in some aspects with CI over HA.

How am I seeing a percentage of people that were able to preserve some or even all of their hearing? Did they get special electrodes placed in the right positions that don't interfer with the hair cells? Some of those people got full electrodes, not the shortened ones used in hybrid CI/HA clinical trials.


How much would this cut down on the cost? Current CI costs $50,000 but those getting CI usually pay much less or nothing at all due to insurance. So really it's the insurance companies that will benefit from the savings.

As for dynamic ranges, doesn't CI also have a small dynamic range?


1 - I was told by my surgeon that it's also mainly because surgeons do the insertion way too quickly that damages the fragile hair cells in the cochlea. This is why sometimes you see surgeries can be done within 2 to 3 hours. My surgeon spent more than 4 hours per ear (probably half of the time to do the actually insertion). It's like putting a thin thread through a thick piano wire without touching the edges. If someone has very little residual hearing, then it's really not that much of a big deal, but I had a lot even though HA didn't really help too much at all. And you know that I still have the exact same hearing loss as I did before both of my surgeries. I have no idea if it has gotten worse now since my loss is progressive.

2 - $50,000 is not a lot...seriously. I would say a small FRACTION of that cost is the actual implant system. For ONE box of toys and stuff...comes out to be roughly $2k. I don't know how much the implant and processor cost, but people who had upgrades, it would cost a nice couple grand...which is pretty much the exact same cost as it would for higher end HA's (my HA's were about 3K for two). The rest - OR fees, Recovery Fees, medication fees, blood tests, urine test (for females anyways), etc etc. If you add them all up...50k is not that much.

I used to be a vet tech - we use IV caths all the time. It cost the owners roughly $50 for a cath. Yet, for ONE catheter it's pennies. I find THAT a little TOO much. Some hospitals charges more...others not so much. The majority of the cost is for the hospital itself, not for the implant system.

3 - CI has a small dynamic range? Where are you getting your source from? LOL!! Cochlear has the a DR of 80. :) Seriously...but is anyone going to get that high? Probably not. If I'm not mistaken, Cochlear has the largest DR compared to the rest of the companies, but it's just available, it doesn't mean a larger DR makes it better. I have a DR of 42 in my left and DR of 34 in my right. I probably will need to increase the DR a little in my left. It just gives you a range between the softest sound to the threshold. If I have it much higher (let say in the 60's for example), it will be way too overwhelming for me. Hence, this is why MAPping is involved to tweak even further on individual electrodes.
 
I will try to answer your questions.
Q) Howcome when I search the internet, it gives different values for converting? For example it gives a value of 7db SPL at 1000Hz. None of the values are below 7db SPL from what someone tested the audiometer with a db SPL meter. For example at 1000Hz hearing at 77db SPL puts your loss at 70db HL.
A) I gave you values that you cannot easily search on and based upon 1/3 Octave Bands. Not everything is published on the internet. In addition, each company may have slightly different fitting algorithms and candidacy selection methods. The most common (but not the only one) is DSL.
Q) How am I seeing a percentage of people that were able to preserve some or even all of their hearing? Did they get special electrodes placed in the right positions that don't interfer with the hair cells? Some of those people got full electrodes, not the shortened ones used in hybrid CI/HA clinical trials.
A) I hate to say this, but some people respond to surgery better. There are better surgeons. Everyone’s anatomy is different. If everything is optimum, there are better results. Surgery is an art not a science. Also, a very well inserted electrode with hug the inner wall but that is not always the case.



Q) What happened to that 128 electrode CI being developed since 2006?
A) I looked at you link. It is a university project. It doesn’t appear that long term biocompatibility is an issue with that design. Also, that is just an electrode. The electrode must still have connections into the inner electronics via feed-throughs. I have heard rumors that the worlds largest medical company (which doesn’t make hearing implants) is developing a 30 pin feed-through. You must remember that you have to make a CI electrode conductors of a very stable metal for long term use. The metal must also be biocompatible. Currently, platinum is the metal used. The metals are then encased in a biocompatible silicone to make the electrode. Yields are very low and materials are very expensive (during the past year platinum has sold for between about $1000 and ounce and $2000 an ounce).
Q) Google laser or fiber optic cochlear implant. Plenty of articles that discuss this new technology. Maybe it's being developed in secret but could be several years away.
A) Here is a good link. Technology Review: Making Deaf Ears Hear with Light
Reading this is just experimentation and theory. Here is what they say:
“A major question is whether it's safe to stimulate nerves in this way for long periods of time. So far, Richter and his colleagues have shown that auditory nerves in anesthetized gerbils can be stimulated with infrared laser radiation for up to six hours without damage. At present it's not feasible to run the tests for longer, but Richter is planning long-term studies in animals with permanently implanted devices.
The researchers are also figuring out how to precisely control neuron activity with lasers. The ear encodes pitch and loudness not just by firing nerves in particular places, but also by modifying the rate at which they fire. So far, Richter has shown that laser radiation can reliably make neurons fire up to 250 times per second, which is comparable to the rate at which early-model conventional cochlear implants drive neurons. “
While they may be possible in the future, they are not main stream and not being actively pursued (to my knowledge) by any of the commercial ventures. Once they begin clinical expect at least 3 years from when they will be approved in the USA (best case).

Q) How much would this cut down on the cost? Current CI costs $50,000 but those getting CI usually pay much less or nothing at all due to insurance. So really it's the insurance companies that will benefit from the savings.
A) $50K is the cost for everything. The CI is likely $20k-$25K of that price. Keep in mind that medical devices are not fixed price commodities. A doctor who buys more of them gets discounts (and he makes a profit on selling them). The same is true for HA. This is the same reason why Best Buy sells cheaper. They get volume discounts.
I would suspect that when a company reduces costs of manufacturing the patient will not see a drop in price. Much of the price of medical devices is insurance for the company, manufacturing costs, research and development pay-back, etc. Taking a quick look at Cochlear Corps 2008 Annual report they were running at about 19% profit levels. If they can take the cost of manufacturing down, they will make a little more money.
Q) Ive been wondering why some of us still benefit from HAs despite being profoundly deaf(90-110+ db losses) As for dynamic ranges, doesn't CI also have a small dynamic range? Im still wondering if the gain/SPL manufactors list on their HA specs are A or C weighed? In another thread, I said:

A) I am not talking about the dynamic range of the device. It is dynamic range of the patient. If you have 30dB dynamic range (90db to 120db) then “normal” sounds which go from 0-120db must be compressed into your dynamic range of 30db requiring a 4:1 compression. Keep in mind this is very simple and high end devices this is frequency dependant and can also have knee points. This means that low volumes are amplified more and high volumes are compressed more than 4:1.

Q) I was wondering the same thing to be honest. I will have to ask my audiologist(s) this. Those reading my post can offer their own theories as well. Let me share my experience what it's like. The results are with the speaker volume cranked up.

A) The short answer to this is sounds are not perceived equally across the frequency range. A HA can be fitted to sound very loud by increasing gains in the 250-750 range. However, they hearing aid may sound loud, but it helps very little on speech recognition. Speech recognition is from around 1k to 4K. And the 1K to 3K is most important.
Perceived loudness is one of the issues that conventional HA have issues with and the implants seem to be winning by large margins.
I am sorry to be vague on some things. However, I can only give what is considered “general knowledge”.
 
3 - CI has a small dynamic range? Where are you getting your source from? LOL!! Cochlear has the a DR of 80. :) Seriously...but is anyone going to get that high? Probably not. If I'm not mistaken, Cochlear has the largest DR compared to the rest of the companies, but it's just available, it doesn't mean a larger DR makes it better. I have a DR of 42 in my left and DR of 34 in my right. I probably will need to increase the DR a little in my left. It just gives you a range between the softest sound to the threshold. If I have it much higher (let say in the 60's for example), it will be way too overwhelming for me. Hence, this is why MAPping is involved to tweak even further on individual electrodes.

Its not the dynamic range of the implant that is the issue. It is the dynamic range of the person. The sounds must be compressed to fit into the dynamic range of the person using the device by the implants.

I am not sure what compression methods Cochlear Corp is using. However, I believe that they are using time-domain signal processing which is harder to perform advanced compression algorithms with than frequecny-domain DSP. However, the power consumption of time-domain is lower.

C1
 
1 - I was told by my surgeon that it's also mainly because surgeons do the insertion way too quickly that damages the fragile hair cells in the cochlea. This is why sometimes you see surgeries can be done within 2 to 3 hours. My surgeon spent more than 4 hours per ear (probably half of the time to do the actually insertion). It's like putting a thin thread through a thick piano wire without touching the edges. If someone has very little residual hearing, then it's really not that much of a big deal, but I had a lot even though HA didn't really help too much at all. And you know that I still have the exact same hearing loss as I did before both of my surgeries. I have no idea if it has gotten worse now since my loss is progressive.

2 - $50,000 is not a lot...seriously. I would say a small FRACTION of that cost is the actual implant system. For ONE box of toys and stuff...comes out to be roughly $2k. I don't know how much the implant and processor cost, but people who had upgrades, it would cost a nice couple grand...which is pretty much the exact same cost as it would for higher end HA's (my HA's were about 3K for two). The rest - OR fees, Recovery Fees, medication fees, blood tests, urine test (for females anyways), etc etc. If you add them all up...50k is not that much.

I used to be a vet tech - we use IV caths all the time. It cost the owners roughly $50 for a cath. Yet, for ONE catheter it's pennies. I find THAT a little TOO much. Some hospitals charges more...others not so much. The majority of the cost is for the hospital itself, not for the implant system.

3 - CI has a small dynamic range? Where are you getting your source from? LOL!! Cochlear has the a DR of 80. :) Seriously...but is anyone going to get that high? Probably not. If I'm not mistaken, Cochlear has the largest DR compared to the rest of the companies, but it's just available, it doesn't mean a larger DR makes it better. I have a DR of 42 in my left and DR of 34 in my right. I probably will need to increase the DR a little in my left. It just gives you a range between the softest sound to the threshold. If I have it much higher (let say in the 60's for example), it will be way too overwhelming for me. Hence, this is why MAPping is involved to tweak even further on individual electrodes.

1. Then why don't more CI candidates find surgeons who take their time? It's a terrible shame that some just throw away their residual hearing. It's not a big deal for a 90db loss(wasn't your loss that much starting at 250Hz?) however my loss is alot less than yours. The most important thing for me when/if I get CI is to keep all my residual hearing, unless my loss is progressive and I become profoundly deaf(well some say I am already profoundly deaf) keeping the residual hearing would be plan B if the CI didn't work out or wasn't better than HAs. I don't see how a CI can match or improve a HL of less than 90db at any given frequency. Someone with a HL of less than 90db would benefit great from HAs.

2. Most people getting CIs let their insurance pay 80% to 100% of the cost. Those who don't get approved by insurance usually stay with HAs even if they had the $50,000 since they assume they are still getting too much benefit from HAs and also CIs wouldn't be worth $50,000 unless it's not them paying that cost. I don't have $50,000 and if I did, it would be going towards a house which is way more important than getting more access to sounds with CI. Ive heard the external processor alone costs $5000-7000!

3. Mapping a Cochlear Implant - Hearing Pocket You hold the CI record!

Reprogramming of the cochlear implant, or what is commonly called a “MAP”, refers to the setting of the electrical stimulation limits necessary for the cochlear implant user to perceive soft and comfortably loud sound. Normal acoustic hearing can process sounds within a 120dB range. Normal speech ranges anywhere between 40 and 60dB (the shaded area of this audiogram). Cochlear implant recipients have a dynamic range of only 6-15dB in electrical current. Therefore, in cochlear implant speech processors, a 120dB acoustic range must be compressed into an electric range of 6-15dB.
 
Thanks.

I have read quite a few posts on this site. I find them interesting. You may be able to tell that I know quite a bit about the technology that is used so if you have technical questions, I will try my best to respond but I cannot respond much to lifestyle questions.

However, I will post what I understand about hearing impairment. I was at surgery to implant a hear device. After seeing the whole thing from start to finish, I couldn't understand why anyone would do that to themselves. What I was told by the surgeon, is something that I will paraphrase.

They told me when a person looses eyesight, they are disconnected from the physical world. When they loose hearing, they are disconnected from the human world.


That has stuck with me.



C1

Since the tecnology is directly connected to lifestyle, don't you think it might be wise to learn a bit about it? Technology certainly does not stand on its own.

The last paragraph is not only insulting, it is innacurrate. But typical of the medicalized perpsective. Statements like that stick with me, as well, but I'm fairly certain not in the same way as it has stuck with you.
 
Id like to compare SPL using the familiar A and C weighing. I read that nowdays, most db SPL figures are A weighed. Should I assume the max SPL for HAs is A weighed? That means a max SPL of 120db at 125Hz would give someone with a 60db HL(who requires 85dba) a dynamic range of 35db.

Basically even the best surgeons can't guarantee anything, period. If a person is not happy with his CI or hears worse than with HAs, unless he preserves his hearing, there's no plan B and you lose that ear.

So when will we see more than 22 electrodes with CI? Why can't improving technology find a way around this somehow, perhaps with laser/fiber optic CI? Or will we see stem cells being used to grow hair cells to improve unaided hearing before we see more than 22 electrode CIs? What would be the future of CI(including fiber optics) once clinical trials begin for regenerating some hearing?

So when the costs of CI drops, the companies will still maintain the same price and reap more profit. Makes sense since the CI market is tiny and also insurance picks up the tab anyway. Costs such as surgery and hospital are fixed.

I guess compression works fine for me. I am going to see if less compression in the mid frequencies brings out more of the consonant sounds in speech as less gain reduction will mean id hear speech better. Any tips I can share with my audie when my HAs get reprogrammed?

My HA does sound loud at 750Hz and below since I have enough residual low frequency hearing that my dynamic range is large enough and the SPL is enough above my HL threshold. The problem starts above 1000Hz where my dynamic range is just a few db and hearing at like 3db above my threshold is still going to be faint, id need around 10db above thresholds to hear a given sound at MCL levels.

Explain why I am able to understand 70% of what my dad says without lipreading and why this profoundly deaf man scored 90% speech(see my thread on this) The speech banana spans from 125Hz to 8000Hz and from what ive read, 60% of the speech takes place in the low frequencies. Ive read about people having only low frequency residual hearing who could still understand some speech! I have mostly just low frequency residual hearing. It's 90db HL at 500Hz but at 1000Hz it drops down to the 110-115 range. At 2000Hz and up, it's 120db+ so I wouldn't be surprised if 80% to 90% of everything I hear(sounds, music, speech) comes from the lows. But then most speech and sounds are composed of low frequencies.

Explain more about perceived loudness? I hear up to 1000Hz at MCL levels meaning most sounds I hear are comfortably loud for me and I have no trouble hearing them. I can see CI being great if you have a 90db+ loss at 250Hz sloping down to 110db+ at 1000Hz but what about those with alot of low frequency residual hearing? I would not want to trade away some of my low frequency hearing in order to gain some high frequencies.
 
1 - I was told by my surgeon that it's also mainly because surgeons do the insertion way too quickly that damages the fragile hair cells in the cochlea. This is why sometimes you see surgeries can be done within 2 to 3 hours. My surgeon spent more than 4 hours per ear (probably half of the time to do the actually insertion). It's like putting a thin thread through a thick piano wire without touching the edges. If someone has very little residual hearing, then it's really not that much of a big deal, but I had a lot even though HA didn't really help too much at all. And you know that I still have the exact same hearing loss as I did before both of my surgeries. I have no idea if it has gotten worse now since my loss is progressive.

I haven't had my hearing test in Implanted ear yet so i don't know if my residual hearing is still there. BUT my surgery took 4 hours as in my surgeon's words " I took long time as i wanted to put it in very very carefully", i assume he meant he wanted me to keep my residual hearing.... who knows.

2 - $50,000 is not a lot...seriously. I would say a small FRACTION of that cost is the actual implant system. For ONE box of toys and stuff...comes out to be roughly $2k. I don't know how much the implant and processor cost, but people who had upgrades, it would cost a nice couple grand...which is pretty much the exact same cost as it would for higher end HA's (my HA's were about 3K for two). The rest - OR fees, Recovery Fees, medication fees, blood tests, urine test (for females anyways), etc etc. If you add them all up...50k is not that much.

I used to be a vet tech - we use IV caths all the time. It cost the owners roughly $50 for a cath. Yet, for ONE catheter it's pennies. I find THAT a little TOO much. Some hospitals charges more...others not so much. The majority of the cost is for the hospital itself, not for the implant system.

3 - CI has a small dynamic range? Where are you getting your source from? LOL!! Cochlear has the a DR of 80. :) Seriously...but is anyone going to get that high? Probably not. If I'm not mistaken, Cochlear has the largest DR compared to the rest of the companies, but it's just available, it doesn't mean a larger DR makes it better. I have a DR of 42 in my left and DR of 34 in my right. I probably will need to increase the DR a little in my left. It just gives you a range between the softest sound to the threshold. If I have it much higher (let say in the 60's for example), it will be way too overwhelming for me. Hence, this is why MAPping is involved to tweak even further on individual electrodes.

I think my DR average is 44... will check on 27th may
.
 
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