The truth about me, Fuzzy...

[jillio]

Faire joure, no you're not understanding. It has been DECADES since it was the norm for kids to stay from preschool to upper grades. It's a relic of when public schools weren't open to dhh kids. There were always kids who NEEDED a PK-8 education, but a lot of the kids in the middle school and up were transfers from public school. Clarke still has a semi sizable middle school program as a matter of fact. It's not huge for a Deaf school,(and it is tiny compared to the past) no but it is somewhat sizable. It's Deaf program sizable. And you're missing that instead of transferring to the oral school, the kids who are hitting the fourth grade ceiling are going to CSDB, MSD, TSD, FSDB and others.

And public schools were open to DHH kids when I was in grade school. To even bring that up as a topic of discussion is absurd.

 

[jillio]

Wirelessly posted

dd, i have no idea what you last post was about, but i will attempt to respond.

the reason oral schools are smaller is because the kids are doing better! They are mainstreaming after early intervetion instead of struggling for years. The reason that they no longer have middle and high school programs is because they don't have students! The kids are getting the skills they need and then attending their local schools since that is the goal of their families. If there were all these kids hitting the wall at 4th grade and failing, the upper grades would be flourishing instead of closed.

See the bolded? That is exactly what I say 99% of your conclusions and what you claim to see can be so easily disproven and are no doubt the result of variables you have never even considered. This is a prime example.

 

[shel90]

See the bolded? That is exactly what I say 99% of your conclusions and what you claim to see can be so easily disproven and are no doubt the result of variables you have never even considered. This is a prime example.

Still see many kids get referred to our program later on. Same old same old.

 

[jillio]

Still see many kids get referred to our program later on. Same old same old.

Exactly. If I had seen the stats showing that deaf kids had improved so much educationally I would be jumping for joy. They are experiencing the same issues, the same delays and the same gaps as they have for at least 100 years.

 

[deafdyke]

That is because of the research you look at. None of them that you have shown can be generalized to the entire childhood CI population. Letters behind someone's name has virtually nothing to do with validity of a research design. I have told you before that if you are going to try to read research, you need to learn to evaluate it properly for application. You can't just look for one or two sentences you think support your position and say, "Here! This proves it." And the only thing your personal observations have behind them is that you are the mother of a bilaterally implanted child and have become rabid about the issues since putting her through the first surgery. See the bias? I have no doubt that under controlled conditions 99% of what you claim to see could be easily disproven and shown to be the result of a variable you never even considered.

How are we responsible for someone else's failure to produce what you requested?

Yes indeedy. A lot of the pro oral "research" is done on select populations, like the ones who are products of oral deaf schools or the superstars. God, back in the 80's one of the old lady experts (Geers I think....either that or one of the famous ones) "proved" that orally educated kids were on par with reading by focusing on a select group of kids. You do not understand that you have to be VERY skeptical of pro oralist claims. Oralism is basicly a very big business (ie dependency on hearing aids/CIs, audi appointments, speech therapy and so on) and they need to sell the business as much as possible. Trust me, if it weren't for the profit factor oralism would prolly be as obscure as Cued Speech.

 

[deafdyke]

Still see many kids get referred to our program later on. Same old same old.

Precisely shel! And it is kids who run the gamut from kids who have decent oral skills to kids with not great oral abilty, right?
AND faire joure......one thing that you have to understand is that the oral schools in St. Louis are no longer really schools in the sense they were even ten years ago. When they shut the dorms they basicly killed it as a school. As a result, St. Josephs and CID (and Moog even thou that was a day school from its founding) now serve as schools for older kids who are struggling. All three offer services up to age 12 (and St. Jospeh's still serves up to grade 8 if I recall) ALL THREE. There's enough older oral kids in the St. Louis area to support three oral day schools offering programming......and bear in mind that the St. Louis city school Dhh program is pretty decent.....I think that says something!

 

[deafdyke]

Exactly. If I had seen the stats showing that deaf kids had improved so much educationally I would be jumping for joy. They are experiencing the same issues, the same delays and the same gaps as they have for at least 100 years.

Yes, exactly. As a matter of fact, I do know that part of the reason why it may appear that oral kids are doing better, is b/c the private oral programs tend to reccomend Sign usage for kids who really need it early on.
They also don't really follow the mainstreamed dhh kids...they just mainstream them, and assume that the kids will do well.

 

[deafdyke]

Exactly. If I had seen the stats showing that deaf kids had improved so much educationally I would be jumping for joy. They are experiencing the same issues, the same delays and the same gaps as they have for at least 100 years.

And also, the ONLY reason why they are doing "better" is b/c they're no longer as severely orally impaired as past years. Their spoken language just isn't as bad any more.

 

[faire_jour]

Wirelessly posted

Wirelessly posted

dd, i have no idea what you last post was about, but i will attempt to respond.

the reason oral schools are smaller is because the kids are doing better! They are mainstreaming after early intervetion instead of struggling for years. The reason that they no longer have middle and high school programs is because they don't have students! The kids are getting the skills they need and then attending their local schools since that is the goal of their families. If there were all these kids hitting the wall at 4th grade and failing, the upper grades would be flourishing instead of closed.

Faire joure, no you're not understanding. It has been DECADES since it was the norm for kids to stay from preschool to upper grades. It's a relic of when public schools weren't open to dhh kids. There were always kids who NEEDED a PK-8 education, but a lot of the kids in the middle school and up were transfers from public school. Clarke still has a semi sizable middle school program as a matter of fact. It's not huge for a Deaf school,(and it is tiny compared to the past) no but it is somewhat sizable. It's Deaf program sizable. And you're missing that instead of transferring to the oral school, the kids who are hitting the fourth grade ceiling are going to CSDB, MSD, TSD, FSDB and others.

show me the stats. Show me that the Deaf schools are receiving tremdous amounts of transfers each year. If that is the case, why are enrollments LOWER then they were a generation ago. Shouldn't it be increasing (since upper grades at the oral schools are no longer an option).

 

[jillio]

Yes indeedy. A lot of the pro oral "research" is done on select populations, like the ones who are products of oral deaf schools or the superstars. God, back in the 80's one of the old lady experts (Geers I think....either that or one of the famous ones) "proved" that orally educated kids were on par with reading by focusing on a select group of kids. You do not understand that you have to be VERY skeptical of pro oralist claims. Oralism is basicly a very big business (ie dependency on hearing aids/CIs, audi appointments, speech therapy and so on) and they need to sell the business as much as possible. Trust me, if it weren't for the profit factor oralism would prolly be as obscure as Cued Speech.

Exactly. Pick and choose your participants, and don't have a control group. Great way to manipulate results.

 

[jillio]

And also, the ONLY reason why they are doing "better" is b/c they're no longer as severely orally impaired as past years. Their spoken language just isn't as bad any more.

More likely, the reason they are doing "better" is the result of nothing more than the way "better" is operationally defined in the study.

 

[faire_jour]

Wirelessly posted

Still see many kids get referred to our program later on. Same old same old.

Precisely shel! And it is kids who run the gamut from kids who have decent oral skills to kids with not great oral abilty, right?
AND faire joure......one thing that you have to understand is that the oral schools in St. Louis are no longer really schools in the sense they were even ten years ago. When they shut the dorms they basicly killed it as a school. As a result, St. Josephs and CID (and Moog even thou that was a day school from its founding) now serve as schools for older kids who are struggling. All three offer services up to age 12 (and St. Jospeh's still serves up to grade 8 if I recall) ALL THREE. There's enough older oral kids in the St. Louis area to support three oral day schools offering programming......and bear in mind that the St. Louis city school Dhh program is pretty decent.....I think that says something!

wrong. Moog only serves through age 8.

also, the vast majority of the kids being served through moog and CID are under 3. Most kids graduate before they leave pre-k.

the oral school that my daughter currently attends has only had one child transfer from the mainstream for at least the last 3 years. The rest of the students have been with them from the beginning. (except my child who came from another oral school).

your assumptions about the demographics of these schools is false.

 

[jillio]

Wirelessly posted



show me the stats. Show me that the Deaf schools are receiving tremdous amounts of transfers each year. If that is the case, why are enrollments LOWER then they were a generation ago. Shouldn't it be increasing (since upper grades at the oral schools are no longer an option).

Illogical conclusions. And you have been shown stats any number of times. It would appear that you are incapable of analyzing them. We are not responsible for that.

 

[faire_jour]

Wirelessly posted

Exactly. If I had seen the stats showing that deaf kids had improved so much educationally I would be jumping for joy. They are experiencing the same issues, the same delays and the same gaps as they have for at least 100 years.

Yes, exactly. As a matter of fact, I do know that part of the reason why it may appear that oral kids are doing better, is b/c the private oral programs tend to reccomend Sign usage for kids who really need it early on.
They also don't really follow the mainstreamed dhh kids...they just mainstream them, and assume that the kids will do well.

this isn't true either. I know of several private oral schools that continue to keep information on their students through their education. Tucker maxon is one.

 

[jillio]

Wirelessly posted



wrong. Moog only serves through age 8.

also, the vast majority of the kids being served through moog and CID are under 3. Most kids graduate before they leave pre-k.

the oral school that my daughter currently attends has only had one child transfer from the mainstream for at least the last 3 years. The rest of the students have been with them from the beginning. (except my child who came from another oral school).

your assumptions about the demographics of these schools is false.

You have virtually nothing to refute their claims other than "I say so!" If you want to get into these discussions, please prepare yourself first.

 

[jillio]

Wirelessly posted



this isn't true either. I know of several private oral schools that continue to keep information on their students through their education. Tucker maxon is one.

You still aren't getting it. You simply cannot see past your own superficial desires to look at these issues with reason and intelligence.

 

[Smithtr]

Jillo is very strong comments empower than you FJ is very will lose

 

[faire_jour]

Wirelessly posted

Wirelessly posted



show me the stats. Show me that the Deaf schools are receiving tremdous amounts of transfers each year. If that is the case, why are enrollments LOWER then they were a generation ago. Shouldn't it be increasing (since upper grades at the oral schools are no longer an option).

Illogical conclusions. And you have been shown stats any number of times. It would appear that you are incapable of analyzing them. We are not responsible for that.

it is not factually correct. The majority of deaf stdents do not end up at a signing deaf school after "failing" in the mainstream. That just isn't true.

 

[faire_jour]

Wirelessly posted

Wirelessly posted



wrong. Moog only serves through age 8.

also, the vast majority of the kids being served through moog and CID are under 3. Most kids graduate before they leave pre-k.

the oral school that my daughter currently attends has only had one child transfer from the mainstream for at least the last 3 years. The rest of the students have been with them from the beginning. (except my child who came from another oral school).

your assumptions about the demographics of these schools is false.

You have virtually nothing to refute their claims other than "I say so!" If you want to get into these discussions, please prepare yourself first.

i have personal knowledge of the kids in the school and she is simply making assumptions having never met or spoken to anyone affliated in any way with any of them.

 

[jillio]

Wirelessly posted



it is not factually correct. The majority of deaf stdents do not end up at a signing deaf school after "failing" in the mainstream. That just isn't true.

Nothing you post is factually correct. You never have facts to back up what you say. You post nothing but your distorted personal perceptions based on your experience with one deaf child, and then are self consumed enough to expect everyone to accept it as fact and expertise.

You want to participate in these discussions, start educating yourself instead of living in that limited world you have created for yourself. Look around at others. It ain't about you.