The new deaf generation....speaking and listening

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GrendelQ said:
You might want to rethink such a comment. I don't believe Cerf is trying to "pass" as anything -- he's very active in deaf advocacy and open abut his deafness. The people listening to him don't give a damn about any accent or speech impediment (neither of which are apparent to me), he's an incredibly brilliant man: they care about what he is saying.
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I was referring to Koko's statement. I never said that Cerf was trying to pass. I said that I find even the suggestion that it would be appropriate to do so disturbing.
 
kokonut said:
Right. It's the ease and flow on speaking that she was talking about. Something that's automatic when it comes to speaking. It's like when you first learned how to drive a car. All those things you have to remember. The brakes. Gas pedal. Emergency brakes. Turn signals. Speed. The location of your car relative to other cars. When to brake. Watching out for traffic signals and signs. Watching out for other traffic. Using your side view mirror. Your rear view mirror. Putting on your seat belt. It took a lot of effort in the beginning to remember those things and took time to develop that into a skill where you've become an experienced and adept driver where it has become an automatic experience.
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Pray tell, why are there members on alldeaf north of 40 years old going voice off?

Obviously after 40++ years something doesnt exactly always become "an automatic experience."
 
DeafCaroline said:
Deaf issues IS a civil rights issue.
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Absolutely. I have a nephew who has taught history for 25 years. He is sitting right here in the room with me. I just asked him if, knowing what he has learned of Deaf history by having a Deaf person in his family, would he consider the comparison apt. His reply is "Most assuredly." But then, he is familiar with Deaf history.
 
kokonut said:
Right. It's the ease and flow on speaking that she was talking about. Something that's automatic when it comes to speaking. It's like when you first learned how to drive a car. All those things you have to remember. The brakes. Gas pedal. Emergency brakes. Turn signals. Speed. The location of your car relative to other cars. When to brake. Watching out for traffic signals and signs. Watching out for other traffic. Using your side view mirror. Your rear view mirror. Putting on your seat belt. It took a lot of effort in the beginning to remember those things and took time to develop that into a skill where you've become an experienced and adept driver where it has become an automatic experience.
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You are grasping. And you are agreeing with a poster who has demonstrated less than adequate knowledge regarding these matters. What does that say for your position?
 
jillio said:
Then you agree that koko's definition is in error by including "effortlessly" in the criteria for fluency.
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I don't know which "koko's definition" is -- he posted about 3 or 4 different definitions for fluent at the start of this conversation. Do you think he doctored the definitions he posted to slip in the word "effortlessly"? I'll grab one from the web and post it, below -- effortless appears, but maybe Koko got to them, too.

Fluent
Pronunciation:/ˈfluːənt/

adjective
1 able to express oneself easily and articulately:
a fluent speaker and writer on technical subjects
able to speak or write a particular foreign language easily and accurately:
she became fluent in French and German
(of a foreign language) spoken accurately and with facility:
he spoke fluent Spanish
2 smoothly graceful and effortless:
his style of play was fast and fluent
3 able to flow freely; fluid:
a fluent discharge from the nose
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Now, Beclak said, after reviewing those 3-4 definitions,
"Going by the dictionary definition of fluency, no d/Deaf/hoh child or adult could ever be fluent in spoken language, we are just masters at fooling people by appearing to be so."

It's that comment and several others she repeated, very much like that one, which which I disagree, not with the dictionary definitions of fluency or with Koko's ability to cut and paste them from the source.

If your issue is with the word effortlessly, to use spoken language effortlessly means to do so "without difficulty, with little or no effort" (acc to the definition of "effortlessly). Whether you are signing or speaking or breathing, deaf or hearing, your body is expending a bit of effort, yes? So we're not looking at 'no effort' as a possibility no matter what language you are using. Think about whether or not you are fluent in ASL or English, or any other language -- can you express yourself and use the language with ease, speed and does it flow for you? That's using the language effortlessly.
 
GrendelQ said:
I don't know which "koko's definition" is -- he posted about 3 or 4 different definitions for fluent at the start of this conversation. Do you think he doctored the definitions he posted to slip in the word "effortlessly"? I'll grab one from the web and post it, below -- effortless appears, but maybe Koko got to them, too.



Now, Beclak said, after reviewing those 3-4 definitions,
"Going by the dictionary definition of fluency, no d/Deaf/hoh child or adult could ever be fluent in spoken language, we are just masters at fooling people by appearing to be so."

It's that comment and several others she repeated, very much like that one, which which I disagree, not with the dictionary definitions of fluency or with Koko's ability to cut and paste them from the source.

If your issue is with the word effortlessly, to use spoken language effortlessly means to do so "without difficulty, with little or no effort" (acc to the definition of "effortlessly). Whether you are signing or speaking or breathing, deaf or hearing, your body is expending a bit of effort, yes? So we're not looking at 'no effort' as a possibility no matter what language you are using. Think about whether or not you are fluent in ASL or English, or any other language -- can you express yourself and use the language with ease, speed and does it flow for you? That's using the language effortlessly.
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Where did I even imply that Koko had inserted the word "effortlessly" into his definition?

Again, you are flip flopping. First you say that whether someone has to exert greater effort in English usage does not impact fluency, now you are saying it does, then again you say it doesn't.

And I agree with Beclak's assessment. That is why effortlessly does not need to be a criterion for fluency for the deaf, or for any population that has to exert greater effort in the use of English than does the general population.
 
TheOracle said:
People don't pass for hearing because they fear for their lives and safety.
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Holocaust, anybody? Let's not forget that the Ancient Greeks and Romans killed babies with disabilities.
 
Gotta look out for all those Ancient Greeks and Romans wandering the neighborhood...
 
TheOracle said:
Because I don't think that it's fair to compare the two movements that way. People don't pass for hearing because they fear for their lives and safety.
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Again, you mght want to study a little Deaf history.
 
Beach girl said:
Gotta look out for all those Ancient Greeks and Romans wandering the neighborhood...
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Sarcasm noted.

Let's not forget, these events actually took place in the history of the world. So who is to say they won't happen again?

History is notorious for repeating itself.
 
Jillio - bit of a joke, seeing as I am descended from those Ancient Romans myself.
 
jillio said:
No doubt. How patronizing! Oh, look at the cute little deafie that speaks.
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Same as "oh my goodness! You speak SOOOOO well!" in a sugary tone that would be appropriate when talking to a 3 year old, and I get that at 40 now.
 
Banjo said:
Sarcasm noted.

Let's not forget, these events actually took place in the history of the world. So who is to say they won't happen again?

History is notorious for repeating itself.
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And, civil rights issues regarding African Americans are not what they were in the past, either. Doesn't mean that the history does not impact the culture, and that certain forms of oppression are not still evident.

It seems that the use of sarcasm is often a defensive ploy to cover over the fact that knowledge is lacking in an area. Don't have knowledge regarding Deaf history? Make a sarcastic comment to any discussion there of, because you have nothing else to contribute, but have a strong desire to be included.
 
AlleyCat said:
Same as "oh my goodness! You speak SOOOOO well!" in a sugary tone that would be appropriate when talking to a 3 year old, and I get that at 40 now.
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I hate that. :P And I hate it even worse when they tell me how intelligent I am cuz of my speech. :barf:
 
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