The new deaf generation....speaking and listening

[shel90]

People who read a lot almost always have better grammar, spelling, vocabulary, and command of the language generally. That goes for hearing, Deaf, those learning a second language, anyone.

People who don't read much have more limited vocabularies and a more limited knowledge-base as compared to those who read a lot.

I consider myself fortunate that my parents always read to us kids when we were young; there were always books around; a trip to the library was a weekly event. It makes such a difference in one's world-view to have that resource.

That's nice and I agree BUT I don't think you are getting what I mean. You grew up hearing, right? If so, you had full 100% access to language. I didn't except for through reading. If I didn't read like I did, my cognitive development would hqave been severly retarded from the constant lack of access to labguage by being is such an extremely restrictive environment 24/7. That is what many of us, deaf people, are put at risk for by an ignorant heari.ng socirty on how critical ASL is for us.

 

[shel90]

Damn android phone...sorry for the spelling mistakes. Internet is down at home so I am using my phone but smart touch isn't as accurate as the keyboards. Pls bear with me

 

[deafskeptic]

That's nice and I agree BUT I don't think you are getting what I mean. You grew up hearing, right? If so, you had full 100% access to language. I didn't except for through reading. If I didn't read like I did, my cognitive development would hqave been severly retarded from the constant lack of access to labguage by being is such an extremely restrictive environment 24/7. That is what many of us, deaf people, are put at risk for by an ignorant heari.ng socirty on how critical ASL is for us.

Exactly. Even reading can't entirely overcome the disadvantages that an oral environment places on us.

 

[DeafCaroline]

That's nice and I agree BUT I don't think you are getting what I mean. You grew up hearing, right? If so, you had full 100% access to language. I didn't except for through reading. If I didn't read like I did, my cognitive development would hqave been severly retarded from the constant lack of access to labguage by being is such an extremely restrictive environment 24/7. That is what many of us, deaf people, are put at risk for by an ignorant heari.ng socirty on how critical ASL is for us.

She's right. It was extreme isolation that drove me to books. I literally read a book a day as a kid. I would fall asleep every night on the couch with the book on my face and my mom or dad would pick me up and bring me to bed. This happened every single night. I would have rather that it wasn't because of feeling so cut off from everything else that I loved books for the escapes they gave me. I would have rather my ability to read and write well didn't come from those circumstances.

 

[jillio]

Damn android phone...sorry for the spelling mistakes. Internet is down at home so I am using my phone but smart touch isn't as accurate as the keyboards. Pls bear with me

Not a problem. I have problems when I switch from the keyboard on my desktop to the keyboard on my laptop. Hopefully, no one will accuse you of being dyslexic like they did me.

 

[Beach girl]

If you're talking about me - I didn't "accuse" you, I just asked. I was genuinely curious.

Re: access to language, Shel, I agree with you, and I DO get you, more than you realize. Yes, I had access to language by being a hearing child, BUT I also read an enormous amount, and that helped so much. Hearing kids who don't read do not automatically become well-educated individuals just because they can hear.

 

[shel90]

She's right. It was extreme isolation that drove me to books. I literally read a book a day as a kid. I would fall asleep every night on the couch with the book on my face and my mom or dad would pick me up and bring me to bed. This happened every single night. I would have rather that it wasn't because of feeling so cut off from everything else that I loved books for the escapes they gave me. I would have rather my ability to read and write well didn't come from those circumstances.

You and I are the lucky ones...however, I don't think we are in the majority with the massive number of deaf kids I see getting referred to our program after failing in the mainstreamed or oral-only programs. Their cognitive development has already been so damaged that even ASL, their ability to think on a higher level has never happened and as a result, they became mentally disabled and end up doing jobs earning minimum wage or collecting SSI@

those who had ASL from the beginning were able toachieve higher thinking skills whether they had mastered the grammar rules of English or not. They end up getting good jobs..even betterb if fluent in both languages.

 

[shel90]

If you're talking about me - I didn't "accuse" you, I just asked. I was genuinely curious.

Re: access to language, Shel, I agree with you, and I DO get you, more than you realize. Yes, I had access to language by being a hearing child, BUT I also read an enormous amount, and that helped so much. Hearing kids who don't read do not automatically become well-educated individuals just because they can hear.

.confused:

Acussed? What do you mean?

 

[DeafCaroline]

those who had ASL from the beginning were able toachieve higher thinking skills whether they had mastered the grammar rules of English or not. They end up getting good jobs..even betterb if fluent in both languages.

I read a story on the internet the other day that blew my mind. It was about a Quebecois couple suing the government for not granting their child a cochlear implant. They fundraise, got the money, went to the US and implanted their son. He was 9, I think. Up till then, he knew only sign.

He was enrolled into the Oral school. The teachers, this blew my mind, said it was because of his fluent grasp of ASL that he had no problems keeping up academically despite not hearing sound or speech till middle-school.

I was like "bingo!"

 

[Beach girl]

.confused:

Acussed? What do you mean?

See jillio's post.

 

[jillio]

.confused:

Acussed? What do you mean?

She was referring to me. She asked me if I was dyslexic a few days ago. She just didn't quote on this one, so it wasn't clear who she was responding to.

 

[inmate23]

Actually, they don't faint. They have a seizure, as the result of a birth defect in the brain. They are bred to have that specific birth defect for no other reason that to entertain some simple minded humans.

sad is health dangerous for the goat?

 

[inmate23]

She's right. It was extreme isolation that drove me to books. I literally read a book a day as a kid. I would fall asleep every night on the couch with the book on my face and my mom or dad would pick me up and bring me to bed. This happened every single night. I would have rather that it wasn't because of feeling so cut off from everything else that I loved books for the escapes they gave me. I would have rather my ability to read and write well didn't come from those circumstances.

My parents used books as babysitters then would spin and bitch(along with the rest of the "team") at IEPs that I had/have no social skills well "duh"

I used to read until 5am(in bed) then go to mainstream

 

[BecLak]

Here's the thing: Spoken word and written word are not the same. It isn't a matter of audio. People speak English using different styles than how they write it. It is also an issue of speed and how our brain organizes things. My written Spanish is 5x better than my oral.

An 'accent' is only loosely related to fluency. People can be totally bilingual and still have an accent until they die. (In fact, most will never lose it.)

If someone can understand my speech - even if they are hearing - and can communicate in response, they're fluent. You can be Deaf and fluent in an oral language. If a linguist were studying the issues we brought up here, they'd consider a deaf person's ability to understand the syntax and semantics of conversational English.

Oracle, I agree with you. I was just addressing the definition of fluency that Kokonut put forward and giving the stark reality of that very definition. The definition he gave is a definition that is only possible for those who are hearing. Other definitions of fluency like that which you decribe, by all means I agree, I would be considered fluent both in speech and in written too. If you read all my posts in this thread you will see that I too mention the same thing.

 

[BecLak]

The discussion started to veer towards accents and 'deaf' accents, so that's why I mentioned it. I already know that accents aren't a part of fluency.

I was not referring to 'accent' deaf or not, I was referring to the effort it takes for any d/Deaf person, including myself, to articulate precisely. No d/Deaf can articulate precisely without effort. That is my whole point. However, Kokonut put forward a definition of fluency which states that fluency is speaking effortlessly. As I said before I was addressing that very definition. It that were so, then no d/Deaf person could every be fluent in speech.

 

[Grummer]

id need to re-read this thread, geez im brain dead at the moment...had good week after a couple of disasters..

 

[kokonut]

TheOracle, I provided two links on the definition of "fluently" of which one is about speaking effortlessly. I also agreed with what GrendelQ said about fluency.

What Beclak claimed was that people born with hearing loss (or very early on) are unable to speak effortlessly later on whether with mild hearing loss or profound, and whether with a hearing aid or cochlear implant. Effortlessly in this example is the ability to speak without much effort or thought. I provided video examples of such from people with hearing aids and cochlear implants who are able to speak effortlessly. Meaning, they speak without any problems...not struggling, not haltingly, not mumbling, etc. For example, I speak effortlessly with anyone that I speak to, and they understand me 100%. Not a surprise because speaking has become automatic for me. Just as people can sign effortlessly without thinking to other signers and be understood 100%. They do it automatically. Just like when Vint Cerf speaks effortlessly. It is automatic for him. I answer the phone and speak with strangers without any effort. It's automatic for me. Just because you can't do it effortlessly doesn't mean every deaf or hard of hearing person is unable to speak effortlessly. That's a very naive, and myopic view. I already provided at least one video that proved that idea false deaf/hh people cannot speak effortlessly. They can. Many do. And they're certainly not struggling to speak as you can see in those videos.

 

[Jiro]

TheOracle, I provided two links on the definition of "fluently" of which one is about speaking effortlessly. I also agreed with what GrendelQ said about fluency.

What Beclak claimed was that people born with hearing loss (or very early on) are unable to speak effortlessly later on whether with mild hearing loss or profound, and whether with a hearing aid or cochlear implant. Effortlessly in this example is the ability to speak without much effort or thought. I provided video examples of such from people with hearing aids and cochlear implants who are able to speak effortlessly. Meaning, they speak without any problems...not struggling, not haltingly, not mumbling, etc. For example, I speak effortlessly with anyone that I speak to, and they understand me 100%. Not a surprise because speaking has become automatic for me. Just as people can sign effortlessly without thinking to other signers and be understood 100%. They do it automatically. Just like when Vint Cerf speaks effortlessly. It is automatic for him. I answer the phone and speak with strangers without any effort. It's automatic for me. Just because you can't do it effortlessly doesn't mean every deaf or hard of hearing person is unable to speak effortlessly. That's a very naive, and myopic view. I already provided at least one video that proved that idea false deaf/hh people cannot speak effortlessly. They can. Many do. And they're certainly not struggling to speak as you can see in those videos.

cease this incessant quibbling at once

 

[kokonut]

 

[Jiro]

yes - can you be a good doll like her? sitting there quietly, minding her own business and practicing to read book upside down.