The "Mainstreaming" Experience: "Isolated cases"?

Yeah, that's why I asked how could you learn ASL without knowing English...and then baja said it wasn't necessary. I know it's not necessary to know one without the other, but it is necessary to learn an L1. :)

btw if I were deaf, my eyes would bleed trying to keep up with oral English. bleh.

It was a HUGE risk put on me for the sake of oralism. I could have struggled to pick up on English during my toddler years and ended up with language delays and deficits like so many other deaf children did.

However, I was always fighting to keep up with what was going on both in and outside of the classroom all of my life. It took a serious toll on me. Also, I was put at an disadvantage for opportunities by being constantly isolated among my hearing peers and hearing adults at school.

No child should ever be put in that position.
 
If someone is signing to her using ASL, would she have barriers to it as if someone was using spoken language with her?

I always have barriers to spoken English even though I am fluent in it. It will never be accessible to me as ASL is even though I am surrounded by both languages through the air constantly.

She doesn't have barriers. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding--what barriers do you mean?
 
I'm just stunted on the definition of natural language. I know what A natural language is, I guess I've never heard "a child's natural language" in studies. Literature, yeah, but not the way you're describing it...that's all. :)

baja: underwater is how i feel when i have an ear infection in my good ear :( it's like wa wa wa wa.
 
She doesn't have barriers. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding--what barriers do you mean?

Misunderstandings, constantly asking people to repeat this or that, missing out on what is being said in a group conversatiion, unable to keep up with the conversation, getting "never minds" or "I will tell you laters"?...does that happen to her with ASL (as a fluent user)?
 
Misunderstandings, constantly asking people to repeat this or that, missing out on what is being said in a group conversatiion, unable to keep up with the conversation, getting "never minds" or "I will tell you laters"?...does that happen to her with ASL (as a fluent user)?

She has a much more limited vocabulary in ASL than in English, one reason why we are pursuing formal learning opportunities and pull outs into ASL practice. We never use never minds, I'll tell you laters in either language and I've not seen her fall behind in conversations, but then we don't speak over her head and disregard whether or not she's following if she's part of the discussion. Complex discussions generally move to English--we spent an afternoon discussing the solar system this weekend and I just didn't have the vocabulary for planets and asteroids and what makes up the sun (hydrogen, helium, etc.) and all that jazz. My language limitations and a lack of child-oriented learning matter in ASL are a barrier to her ability to communicate in ASL.
 
She has a much more limited vocabulary in ASL than in English, one reason why we are pursuing formal learning opportunities and pull outs into ASL practice. We never use never minds, I'll tell you laters in either language and I've not seen her fall behind in conversations, but then we don't speak over her head and disregard whether or not she's following if she's part of the discussion. Complex discussions generally move to English--we spent an afternoon discussing the solar system this weekend and I just didn't have the vocabulary for planets and asteroids and what makes up the sun (hydrogen, helium, etc.) and all that jazz. My language limitations and a lack of child-oriented learning matter in ASL are a barrier to her ability to communicate in ASL.

Spoken English or Signed English?

I see what you mean now. So the main barrier is that she is not able to use pure ASL at home because it's not the natural language of the other family members...whereas English is. Sounds to me like ASL is more of a barrier to the family, not her. And that is not meant to be a negative remark, although when I read it - it can come off as such. That's not my intention.

The truth is, many students in my classroom fit the description of your daughter's preferred language choice.

As an adult, when I'm in a room full of hearing people, even if they are fluent signers, I do what is called code-switching. I sign more English-like with hearing people. Unless I'm mad, then I go all ASL on people, lol. Anyways, I'm trying NOT to do that as much, because it's important for hearing people to have that practice with ASL. With my deaf peers, I'm more likely to use ASL.

I don't know if I'm making sense. It's really hard to explain.
 
BTW, I'm THRILLED your daughter is getting formal classes in both languages. That's awesome. I hope more folks will follow suit. I hope MY school will follow suit.
 
She has a much more limited vocabulary in ASL than in English, one reason why we are pursuing formal learning opportunities and pull outs into ASL practice. We never use never minds, I'll tell you laters in either language and I've not seen her fall behind in conversations, but then we don't speak over her head and disregard whether or not she's following if she's part of the discussion. Complex discussions generally move to English--we spent an afternoon discussing the solar system this weekend and I just didn't have the vocabulary for planets and asteroids and what makes up the sun (hydrogen, helium, etc.) and all that jazz. My language limitations and a lack of child-oriented learning matter in ASL are a barrier to her ability to communicate in ASL.

Yea, your lack of skills of ASL but your daughter will never play guessing games on what the teachers are saying in an educational setting when ASL is being used. That's my point.


My mom was fluent in English but I had constant barriers to English.

Then, the language barriers continued to all of my life up until I learned ASL.
 
Deaf teenagers who are sitting in my classroom, day in and out, have written in their daily journals about their experiences from public schools. I cry every time I read them. I suppose one day I will get used to it, but I'm not at that point.

I am not saying that every single child who is in a mainstreamed setting is being "abused." What I am saying is that some of the experiences that children who are often placed in the mainstreamed education setting is often abuse, but it's not often seen as it. I've pointed out some examples. Many things which are common and accepted for deaf children in those settings should not be. For example, has it occurred to you that having a closed-captioned television program may not always be appropriate? Hearing kids in first grade do not read that well yet - so they learn by hearing the language. Yet, it's a common accommodation for first grade deaf kids, who probably don't have nearly as much exposure to English words, to have captioned on the media program so the interpreter will not interpret the program. This is wrong. I've sat at plenty of meetings whereas I voiced and advocated for the child to be placed in a public school setting as it was more appropriate than the deaf school (for various reasons, and for every child, those reasons will and should vary). What I am merely pointing out is that even in the best possible mainstreamed setting with the appropriate modifications, accommodations, and instructional goals (which does not happen often, by the way), the child still will have some negative experiences that can adversely affect their emotional and mental well-being. This is something that is often overlooked, ignored, or simply said with a shrug "Well, we can't have everything." Parents often feel judged or defensive when they hear these stories, which is understandable. But it's also something they need to sit back and listen to. By listening to these "blanket statements", they may realize the potential of making sure the same thing doesn't happen to their children. For example, it's not okay for the child to sit and eat lunch without an interpreter...this is a very common practice. The child needs conversational skills, too. He needs informal language exposure as opposed to only interpreting what the teacher says. By listening to the stories, the parents can look at their own children and perhaps make better adjustments. I wish someone talked to my parents.
I have tears in my eyes from that post. Heck, it's not OK for the child to sit and eat lunch alone (very common with oral and mainstreamed kids) School is so much more then listening to the teachers voice through an FM device....yet oral deaf ed acts like FM and minimal accomondations are all that's needed to suceed in the mainstream.
Grendel, I do agree with you. I think you're very lucky to have a school district that outrightly admits that it cannot provide that sort of program. What some people do not understand is that a lot of school districts try to pull the wool over parents eyes, by saying that "oh we can provide all that. It's OK." Besides there's still the attitude that a mainstream ed is always better...like a holdover from the 1960's.
 
Curious--- what discussion?

Probably similar to a "panel" that I sat on when I was 18. There were oral deaf, deaf kids in mainstream, and deaf kids at deaf school. Just sharing school experiences in front of an auditorium of parents with deaf kids trying to decide what type of placement to put them in. It was emotional at times, but I think productive.


Not to name drop but I had a dinner with a bunch of friends - We all took part of a discussion about education system, what do we value, what would we have done differently if we could go back in time to change things.

"I wish I went to a deaf institute earlier" was voiced strongly in this discussion. (Gee, I wonder why...)
 
Not to name drop but I had a dinner with a bunch of friends - We all took part of a discussion about education system, what do we value, what would we have done differently if we could go back in time to change things.

"I wish I went to a deaf institute earlier" was voiced strongly in this discussion. (Gee, I wonder why...)

Pls include me on that sentiment!
 
Not to name drop but I had a dinner with a bunch of friends - We all took part of a discussion about education system, what do we value, what would we have done differently if we could go back in time to change things.

"I wish I went to a deaf institute earlier" was voiced strongly in this discussion. (Gee, I wonder why...)

Must be nice.
 
Not to name drop but I had a dinner with a bunch of friends - We all took part of a discussion about education system, what do we value, what would we have done differently if we could go back in time to change things.

"I wish I went to a deaf institute earlier" was voiced strongly in this discussion. (Gee, I wonder why...)

At just about EVERY silent dinner I go to, I get this story. People would tell me me or others about how they struggled in mainstream and when they discovered the Deaf community, it was a relief and a a godsend to them because for the first time in their lives, they didn't have to constantly struggle to understand others once they got ASL down pat.
 
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Not to name drop but I had a dinner with a bunch of friends - We all took part of a discussion about education system, what do we value, what would we have done differently if we could go back in time to change things.

"I wish I went to a deaf institute earlier" was voiced strongly in this discussion. (Gee, I wonder why...)

I'd love to see that list of what you valued, what you'd change. I mean specifically, how you'd draft up the perfect learning environment for a deaf child. For deaf children with no access to sound, with some access to sound, with a great deal of access to sound; for deaf kids from ASL-based homes, for deaf kids from homes where ASL is a new and not fluent language.
 
At just about EVERY silent dinner I go to, I get this story. People would tell me me or others about how they struggled in mainstream and when they discovered the Deaf community, it was a relief and a a god send to them because for the first time in their lives, they didn't have to constantly struggle to understand others once they got ASL down pat.

And we see many newcomers post the same story here on AD when they welcome themselves. Only a rare few do say that they are happy being in the hearing world full time.

Like Jillio said...the majority is what we need to look at, not the few exceptional ones.
 
At just about EVERY silent dinner I go to, I get this story. People would tell me me or others about how they struggled in mainstream and when they discovered the Deaf community, it was a relief and a a godsend to them because for the first time in their lives, they didn't have to constantly struggle to understand others once they got ASL down pat.

I know.. I know...
 
I'd love to see that list of what you valued, what you'd change. I mean specifically, how you'd draft up the perfect learning environment for a deaf child. For deaf children with no access to sound, with some access to sound, with a great deal of access to sound; for deaf kids from ASL-based homes, for deaf kids from homes where ASL is a new and not fluent language.

One of the values: Having a Deaf administrator, administration, and everyone else involved pretty much Deaf.
 
And we see many newcomers post the same story here on AD when they welcome themselves. Only a rare few do say that they are happy being in the hearing world full time.

Like Jillio said...the majority is what we need to look at, not the few exceptional ones.

I know what Jillio was getting at, but with some 86% of deaf kids in mainstream environments and far more deaf and hoh people on an oral track than an ASL track, I don't understand why you would want to let the majority drive where you should be going. I intend to keep bucking the trend because it's whatvworks for my child, and can't see going oral-only just because it's the majority choice.
 
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