The "Mainstreaming" Experience: "Isolated cases"?

I am sorry for your experiences. I do not think that mainstreaming is child abuse. If there's anything I've learned in ed, is that you can't make blanket statements about schools and you can't make arbitrary up statistics to prove your point.

deafbajagal said:
Is it okay for a teacher to not ever talk to a child, day in and day out? No, it's not. But many deaf kids endure it.

Is it okay for deaf kids to have incompetent interpreters, whereas they are only getting less than 60% of access to instruction based on the interpreter's low qualifications. Many states allow this to happen as they do not have mandates in place or have high standards for educational interpreters.

Is it okay for the child to eat lunch alone or play with his peers with no access to direct communication because the school doesn't think an interpreter is needed outside of instructional time? Many people seems to be okay with this.

Is it okay for deaf children to gradually become more and more socially impaired as they have less opportunities for social interaction to develop social skills.

It's not okay. It's not. There's more to school than reading, writing, and doing math. Standardized assessment scores are a crock of peas.

At this present time, ASL is not respected as being equal to English. If it were, we would have tons of data on how well the students are doing with ASL. If we did, I bet you that many of our deaf students who are exposed to ASL from a young age excel as much, if not higher, at their language as their hearing counterparts do with English.

The whole "it's a hearing world and you gotta learn English" cliche doesn't fly with me. Our society is now so accustomed to making Spanish accessible to people (hell, half the time I have to look hard for the English translation in my hometown), that there's no reason they can't do the same for ASL. Yet ASL isn't respected as language in this so-called mainstreamed society.

Read across the board. Many, many deaf adults share my view about mainstreaming education. It seems like the hearing people are the ones with the listening problem. ;)
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TheOracle said:
I am sorry for your experiences. I do not think that mainstreaming is child abuse. If there's anything I've learned in ed, is that you can't make blanket statements about schools and you can't make arbitrary up statistics to prove your point.
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I'm not going to address the first part of your statement. However, the second part .. if you haven't actually lived the life we led in mainstreamed or deaf programs, then it's really hard (or easy for you?) to presume statements we make are blanket. We don't make up our horror stories nor presumptuous stats to prove our point, not when we know too many who experienced what we did. Stats that are recorded across the country only take a tiny grain of what really goes on. And unless you know it, you can't understand. Fact.
 
AlleyCat said:
I'm not going to address the first part of your statement. However, the second part .. if you haven't actually lived the life we led in mainstreamed or deaf programs, then it's really hard (or easy for you?) to presume statements we make are blanket. We don't make up our horror stories nor presumptuous stats to prove our point, not when we know too many who experienced what we did. Stats that are recorded across the country only take a tiny grain of what really goes on. And unless you know it, you can't understand. Fact.
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But AlleyCat, I've read many horror stories about schools for the deaf. Valid, accurate accounts directly from deaf individuals. That doesn't mean my daughter's school for the deaf is indicted in those individual accounts at other schools and that I'm committing child abuse by sending her into that environment.
 
GrendelQ said:
But AlleyCat, I've read many horror stories about schools for the deaf. Valid, accurate accounts directly from deaf individuals. That doesn't mean my daughter's school for the deaf is indicted in those individual accounts at other schools and that I'm committing child abuse by sending her into that environment.
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but those horror stories.... are some of it from good deaf schools?
 
GrendelQ said:
But AlleyCat, I've read many horror stories about schools for the deaf. Valid, accurate accounts directly from deaf individuals. That doesn't mean my daughter's school for the deaf is indicted in those individual accounts at other schools and that I'm committing child abuse by sending her into that environment.
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And I have teacher friends who in no way ignore their deaf students and there are deaf kids in mainstream who don't miss sixty per cent of the material.
 
GrendelQ said:
But AlleyCat, I've read many horror stories about schools for the deaf. Valid, accurate accounts directly from deaf individuals. That doesn't mean my daughter's school for the deaf is indicted in those individual accounts at other schools and that I'm committing child abuse by sending her into that environment.
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I'm not saying you're committing child abuse by putting your child in the school you chose. There are (or at least, were, during my school years) several schools in the metro area that are mainstreamed programs and provide wonderful programs, support, everything. I'm friends with many of those students today, still. Yet, I was mainstreamed just like they were, but my experience was vastly different and awful. We're not making blanket statements that ALL mainstreamed programs are awful, or that ALL deaf schools are awful. Otherwise we would be making blanket statements about EVERY program out there.
 
AlleyCat said:
There probably are. Unfortunately.
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I don't doubt that but I'm referring to Grendel's claim about "many horror stories about schools for the deaf." I'm guessing that most of these horror stories are from mediocre deaf schools.... which is same for bad public schools in many places.
 
TheOracle said:
And I have teacher friends who in no way ignore their deaf students and there are deaf kids in mainstream who don't miss sixty per cent of the material.
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do you dispute the facts that there are teachers who ignore/neglect their deaf students in mainstream school?
 
AlleyCat said:
I'm not saying you're committing child abuse by putting your child in the school you chose. There are (or at least, were, during my school years) several schools in the metro area that are mainstreamed programs and provide wonderful programs, support, everything. I'm friends with many of those students today, still. Yet, I was mainstreamed just like they were, but my experience was vastly different and awful. We're not making blanket statements that ALL mainstreamed programs are awful, or that ALL deaf schools are awful. Otherwise we would be making blanket statements about EVERY program out there.
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You basically just said what Grendel and I pointed out. You can't make blanket statements. People have different experiences. I may not be deaf, but I know something about variables. Grendel, too, I'd imagine. :) I'm not going to tell parents that mainstreaming is abuse. Does mistreatment occur? Sure, in all kinds of situations. Do deaf schools have a problem with sexual assault? Some would say. Do deaf schools = child abuse? Of course not.

What I don't understand is how every damned thread turns into an "us" v. "them" mentality when (aside from a few exceptions) we are all pretty much in agreement. ASL is not negotiable. Deaf culture is valuable. Parents need to be involved. Early language is important.

et cetera ad nauseum
 
Jiro said:
I don't doubt that but I'm referring to Grendel's claim about "many horror stories about schools for the deaf." I'm guessing that most of these horror stories are from mediocre deaf schools.... which is same for bad public schools in many places.
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I totally agree.
 
TheOracle said:
You basically just said what Grendel and I pointed out. You can't make blanket statements. People have different experiences. I may not be deaf, but I know something about variables. Grendel, too, I'd imagine. :) I'm not going to tell parents that mainstreaming is abuse. Does mistreatment occur? Sure, in all kinds of situations. Do deaf schools have a problem with sexual assault? Some would say. Do deaf schools = child abuse? Of course not.

What I don't understand is how every damned thread turns into an "us" v. "them" mentality when (aside from a few exceptions) we are all pretty much in agreement. ASL is not negotiable. Deaf culture is valuable. Parents need to be involved. Early language is important.

et cetera ad nauseum
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If that's how you want to infer it. We are not making blanket statements. :roll:
 
AlleyCat said:
TheOracle said:
And I have teacher friends who in no way ignore their deaf students and there are deaf kids in mainstream who don't miss sixty per cent of the material.[/QUOTE]

How do you know?
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How don't you? :roll:

Blanket statements, girl. It doesn't fly in science very often.

And if her statement were true, it would be an average percentage. So there are some students higher and some students lower. Since not all variables are equal, it is safe to assume that certain influences (ie teaching methods, class size, terps) are key. Education in America isn't found in Cliff notes.
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Jiro said:
I don't doubt that but I'm referring to Grendel's claim about "many horror stories about schools for the deaf." I'm guessing that most of these horror stories are from mediocre deaf schools.... which is same for bad public schools in many places.
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I suspect the horror stories apply to good and bad schools. yes, all schools. Which is why -- although they are valid and very unfortunate and action should be taken -- you can't really use those stories to say that sending a child to any deaf school is child abuse, or sending a child to any public school is child abuse.
 
TheOracle said:
How don't you? :roll:

Blanket statements, girl. It doesn't fly in science very often.

And if her statement were true, it would be an average percentage. So there are some students higher and some students lower. Since not all variables are equal, it is safe to assume that certain influences (ie teaching methods, class size, terps) are key. Education in America isn't found in Cliff notes.
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You would make your points much better if you would drop the sarcasm. I wasn't the one who said "there are deaf kids in mainstream who don't miss 60% of the material." If you want to make the statement that you think that's true, you better back it up.
 
AlleyCat said:
If that's how you want to infer it. We are not making blanket statements. :roll:
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Good. I'm glad it's settled.

Deaf schools are not always superior.
Mainstream is not always evil.
Kids can have a positive experience in mainstream ed.
 
AlleyCat said:
You would make your points much better if you would drop the sarcasm. I wasn't the one who said "there are deaf kids in mainstream who don't miss 60% of the material." If you want to make the statement that you think that's true, you better back it up.
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I'm not being sarcastic.

I responded to baja.
You posted a response to my response to baja.
I responded about topic.

You also said "we" aren't making blanket statements...anyway...before you go all Chuck Norris on my ass, take a step back and ask yourself, "What point am I arguing here? Do I even have a point?" and then ask yourself, "What are we disagreeing about?"
 
TheOracle said:
I'm not being sarcastic.

I responded to baja.
You posted a response to my response to baja.
I responded about topic.

You also said "we" aren't making blanket statements...anyway...before you go all Chuck Norris on my ass, take a step back and ask yourself, "What point am I arguing here? Do I even have a point?" and then ask yourself, "What are we disagreeing about?"
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And this is why threads get locked. Stupid references to Chuck Norris, ass, etc. Cut the crap. Nice job, honey.
 
TheOracle said:
You also said "we" aren't making blanket statements...anyway...before you go all Chuck Norris on my ass, take a step back and ask yourself, "What point am I arguing here? Do I even have a point?" and then ask yourself, "What are we disagreeing about?"
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I'm seeing that you use this tactic quite often whenever kitchen gets hot. Perhaps you should know how to cook first before you step into kitchen...
 
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