The Economics of Cochlear Implants and Deafness?

[R2D2]

Granted, there are numerous factors that would make a residential school more expensive to run. But when you start figuring in costs like $60,000 a year to provide CART services for one student in one district, the cost effectiveness certainly goes down. And with the number of students using CI that still require terp services, notetakers, etc., it would appear that, at least where the educational environment is concerned, CI is not more cost effective than HA.

It seems to me that the aim of the cost saving exercise is to place CIers on the same level as HAers in the mainstream setting as opposed to profoundly deaf in deaf schools?

Is CART a common provision for US deaf students? I'm impressed! I don't think Australian deaf students would get that service here. It's just used for captioning the news live.

 

[jillio]

It seems to me that the aim of the cost saving exercise is to place CIers on the same level as HAers in the mainstream setting as opposed to profoundly deaf in deaf schools?

Is CART a common provision for US deaf students? I'm impressed! I don't think Australian deaf students would get that service here. It's just used for captioning the news live.

CART is common for college level students. Less so for high school level, but precedents are being set in a few school districts. There is one poster on this board with two deaf children using CIs, and they both have transcription services via CART being provided at the high school level. Terps are much more common for those still needing visual input.

I think you are correct about the origninal aim, but we are still seeing CI users who are being transferrred to deaf schools, so that really hasn't played out, either.

 

[R2D2]

CART is common for college level students. Less so for high school level, but precedents are being set in a few school districts. There is one poster on this board with two deaf children using CIs, and they both have transcription services via CART being provided at the high school level. Terps are much more common for those still needing visual input.

Oh okay. I think that compared to my day, college is now much more classroom discussion based so this would make sense.

I think you are correct about the origninal aim, but we are still seeing CI users who are being transferrred to deaf schools, so that really hasn't played out, either.

I know this has been the case for Shel's school but I don't know whether overall on a national level, there has been more deaf students transferred to mainstream from deaf schools or vice versa. It's not just those with CIs but also signers who are being placed in mainstream settings but provided with personal interpreters. My nephew was offered this option but understandably he was worried about being isolated. I think sometimes educators forget about deaf people's social needs.

 

[jillio]

Oh okay. I think that compared to my day, college is now much more classroom discussion based so this would make sense.



I know this has been the case for Shel's school but I don't know whether overall on a national level, there has been more deaf students transferred to mainstream from deaf schools or vice versa. It's not just those with CIs but also signers who are being placed in mainstream settings but provided with personal interpreters. My nephew was offered this option but understandably he was worried about being isolated. I think sometimes educators forget about deaf people's social needs.

Oh, I agree. The first option the school system offered my son was amainstream setting with a terp. I agree completely regarding the isolation. The school experience is, of course, first and foremost about academics. But the socialization that takes place in a school setting is an important part of a child's development. And to be isolated when one is supposed to be learning to socialize can have some very negative effects on self esteem, psychological well being, and consequently, ability to concentrate and learn.

I cna't speak for schools nationwide, but I do know that the deaf school my son attended has several students with CI at the time of his graduation. And the number of CI students seems to increase proportionately to the number of implantations being done.

 

[deafdyke]

And with the number of students using CI that still require terp services, notetakers, etc., it would appear that, at least where the educational environment is concerned, CI is not more cost effective than HA.

EXACTLY!!! Professionals and pro oral advocates make it sound like oral kids are completly independant from things like 'terps (ever hear of oral terps), notetakers and things like CART. There are probaly some kids who don't require that sort of stuff, but pretty much ALL orally skilled kids need "special" accomondations (that hearies don't need) in school.

 

[loml]

Don't want to influence the student here too much, but it's interesting that in denmark, the unemployment rate of deaf people have soared to 50 percent the same time mainstream programs have rised and CI have becomed the most common tool of deaf education. This is what some of the extreme oralists on this board want for us deaf people and their own children.

I will need to find those papers somewhere so I can share with you.

Originally Posted by I_Have_Big_Nose

There are some interesting studies that show a higher level of self-confidence in individuals who use signing than those who don't. One way to examine that is to ask if that translates, for example, into a stronger "go-getter" attitude and therefore more career opportunity and economic well-being? How does that compare with implantees

Originally posted by jillio

I've also read a couple of papers from the medical community stating that CI was considered to be more cost effective because it reduced the need for additional academic accommodations. Can't cite them right off, due to the fact that it was some time ago. I thinkt his is being disproved by the number of students with CI that continue to need transcription and/or interpreting services

Could you please provide some more information regarding these studies, names of researchers, title of paper, etc. Thanks

 

[flip]

Originally Posted by I_Have_Big_Nose
Originally posted by jillio
Could you please provide some more information regarding these studies, names of researchers, title of paper, etc. Thanks

Curious why you want those papers? You have been provided with links and strict, valid research earlier, and still fail to understand what early ASL and fluency in ASL is about. I am not sure if it's worth our time to provide you with papers if you just are going to use them to play tiring games here and promote oralism. Please tell me if it's different this time, and I will be more than happy to provide you with this research again.

 

[owen06]

I know that I personally would like to see the papers. You and the other two posters were referring to self-esteem, reduced unemployment rates, and the ecomonics surrounding ASL. The research posted (that I have seen) has been regarding ASL as the first language and it's success with English as a second language. Nothing specific to the above noted topics. You said that there was a study that showed that:

...that in denmark, the unemployment rate of deaf people have soared to 50 percent the same time mainstream programs have rised and CI have becomed the most common tool of deaf education.

I would be interested in that research. You are implying causality...

 

[jillio]

Originally Posted by I_Have_Big_Nose



Originally posted by jillio


Could you please provide some more information regarding these studies, names of researchers, title of paper, etc. Thanks

Did you read my entire post? That answers the question regarding citaitons.

 

[jillio]

I know that I personally would like to see the papers. You and the other two posters were referring to self-esteem, reduced unemployment rates, and the ecomonics surrounding ASL. The research posted (that I have seen) has been regarding ASL as the first language and it's success with English as a second language. Nothing specific to the above noted topics. You said that there was a study that showed that:



I would be interested in that research. You are implying causality...

Flip is not implying causality. He is implying correlation. Quite a different concept.

Edcuational achievement is directly tied to self-esteem, employment, and economics. Check any of the professional journals for research regarding such.

 

[owen06]

Well then perhaps flip should say there seems to be a correlation. The way the statement has been presented implies causality.

If there has been a study showing what was stated, if should be no problem to provide at the very least the author of the study. That is just common courtasy.

 

[jillio]

Well then perhaps flip should say there seems to be a correlation. The way the statement has been presented implies causality.

If there has been a study showing what was stated, if should be no problem to provide at the very least the author of the study. That is just common courtasy.

Perhaps that is the way you interpret it, but no where in Flip's post does it state that one thing has caused another.

Also, Flip's post specifically states that he will need to "find those papers". Many of us read research on a consistent basis, and while it is easy to remember content and context of an article, one does not always have citation inforamtion available at one's fingertips. Can you, for example, give the name, the title of the book, the publisher, and the year for something you remember reading in a text several years ago? Not being able to provide that information off the top of one's head is not indicative of it being nonexistent. Likewise, would you request that a teacher cite a reference for everything that they have learned and synthesized over the course of their education as they provide that information in a lecture format?

Some of us have been at this for a number of years. Our knowlege is a cummulative total of those years of study, as well as personal experience. If you choose not to accept that, it is your choice.

 

[flip]

Well then perhaps flip should say there seems to be a correlation. The way the statement has been presented implies causality.

If there has been a study showing what was stated, if should be no problem to provide at the very least the author of the study. That is just common courtasy.

The survey was done by a group calling themselves epnions in denmark and can get more information with some e-mailing. The connection between the rise of unemployment rate and less bi-bi programs has been described by the danish deaf association. The unemployed deaf population have some shared problems.

Both you and Loml have been provided with research on early ASL, if you did not change standpoint by reading those papers from top end scientists, why should we feed you with more research on topics that you allready have decided to disagree on? Wouldn't that be totally pointless and waste of my time?

 

[owen06]

Perhaps that is the way you interpret it, but no where in Flip's post does it state that one thing has caused another.

Also, Flip's post specifically states that he will need to "find those papers". Many of us read research on a consistent basis, and while it is easy to remember content and context of an article, one does not always have citation inforamtion available at one's fingertips. Can you, for example, give the name, the title of the book, the publisher, and the year for something you remember reading in a text several years ago? Not being able to provide that information off the top of one's head is not indicative of it being nonexistent. Likewise, would you request that a teacher cite a reference for everything that they have learned and synthesized over the course of their education as they provide that information in a lecture format?

Some of us have been at this for a number of years. Our knowlege is a cummulative total of those years of study, as well as personal experience. If you choose not to accept that, it is your choice.

I would expect the teacher to provide me with some information if I requested it. Otherwise, no I would not. In this case I am requesting it, I am interested in reading the articles.

flip- I haven't disagreed with everything you post. I am asking questions about it, and the condraditions that seem to be made between what people sometimes say about the paper and what the paper actually says. Why is that a problem? I am not asking about how early ASL is effective, I am asking for the information with regards to your specific statement about CI's leading to unemployment. I said I would be interested in reading it. I would think that if you make the statement, you would be more than willing to share how and where you came to that conclusion if someone says they are interested.

 

[jillio]

I would expect the teacher to provide me with some information if I requested it. Otherwise, no I would not. In this case I am requesting it, I am interested in reading the articles.

flip- I haven't disagreed with everything you post. I am asking questions about it, and the condraditions that seem to be made between what people sometimes say about the paper and what the paper actually says. Why is that a problem? I am not asking about how early ASL is effective, I am asking for the information with regards to your specific statement about CI's leading to unemployment. I said I would be interested in reading it. I would think that if you make the statement, you would be more than willing to share how and where you came to that conclusion if someone says they are interested.

The connection to CI leading to greater unemployment is found in the fact that the oral method is becoming the one of preference by CI implantees, especially when the decision is made for children by hearing parents. The divse itself is not responsible, the practices and attitudes associated with it are responsible. To deny that there is a correlation between early CI implantation and the push for an oral only environment is simply naive.

As a educator, I would recommend that you go online and access the information through professional journals. For those articles than cannot be accessed online,thee is a place called a library. Acaddemic institutions have access to anything you should desire. Spoon feeding students information does not educate them, and particularly so at the collegieate level. I have yet to encounter an educator who does my research for me. Encouraging them to learn how to do their own research is part of the eductional process. If you are truly itnerested in learning you will put forth the effort required to become more informed.

 

[vallee]

Found this article. It was very interesting.

Impact of a Cochlear Implant on Job Functioning | Journal of Rehabilitation | Find Articles at BNET.com

 

[flip]

I would expect the teacher to provide me with some information if I requested it. Otherwise, no I would not. In this case I am requesting it, I am interested in reading the articles.

flip- I haven't disagreed with everything you post. I am asking questions about it, and the condraditions that seem to be made between what people sometimes say about the paper and what the paper actually says. Why is that a problem? I am not asking about how early ASL is effective, I am asking for the information with regards to your specific statement about CI's leading to unemployment. I said I would be interested in reading it. I would think that if you make the statement, you would be more than willing to share how and where you came to that conclusion if someone says they are interested.

No one said CI is leading to unemoployment. If that's your reason for making me work for you, then it would be really pointless and waste of energy, as no one said it, wouldn't it?

It's about an increase in mainstream programs and decrease in literacy and employment for deaf people. Interesting that you interpret it as CI leading to unemployement. Perhaps you are right after all?

It's interesting that Cued Speech was part of the danish deaf education many places in the seventies, and some signs today there orgins from Cued Speech. The same country is now a red alert zone for deaf people with decreasing levels of litereacy and a growing unemployed deaf population. How do we explain that?

 

[jillio]

Found this article. It was very interesting.

Impact of a Cochlear Implant on Job Functioning | Journal of Rehabilitation | Find Articles at BNET.com

Intersting, but very limited.

 

[owen06]

No one said CI is leading to unemoployment. If that's your reason for making me work for you, then it would be really pointless and waste of energy, as no one said it, wouldn't it?

It's about an increase in mainstream programs and decrease in literacy and employment for deaf people. Interesting that you interpret it as CI leading to unemployement. Perhaps you are right after all?

This is what you said, and your above statement is how it was interpreted:

...in denmark, the unemployment rate of deaf people have soared to 50 percent the same time mainstream programs have rised and CI have becomed the most common tool of deaf education.

It's interesting that Cued Speech was part of the danish deaf education many places in the seventies, and some signs today there orgins from Cued Speech. The same country is now a red alert zone for deaf people with decreasing levels of litereacy and a growing unemployed deaf population. How do we explain that?

I'm not sure what Cued Speech has to do with any of this. I am interested in the research you mentioned.

Spoonfeeding and providing at least the name of the author that did the research presented are two totally different things. If I went to a prof. and asked for more information about something he/she said, there is no way that they would tell me to go to the library or look through the electronic journals and find it for myself. Most people are more than willing to share the information that has lead them to their conclusions, especially when someone expresses interest in it. At the very least, if they didn't have research to support their claim, they would say it was based on personal experience. I find it interesting that you are so against providing people information on this when asked.

I am interested to see the research that shows what you are saying. Why is that a problem?

 

[jillio]

I'm not sure what Cued Speech has to do with any of this. I am interested in the research you mentioned.

Spoonfeeding and providing at least the name of the author that did the research presented are two totally different things. If I went to a prof. and asked for more information about something he/she said, there is no way that they would tell me to go to the library or look through the electronic journals and find it for myself. Most people are more than willing to share the information that has lead them to their conclusions, especially when someone expresses interest in it. At the very least, if they didn't have research to support their claim, they would say it was based on personal experience. I find it interesting that you are so against providing people information on this when asked.

I am interested to see the research that shows what you are saying. Why is that a problem?

I am not against providing information in the least, and have cited everything I need to cite. I did not cite my reference to having read some articles some time ago, because I did not quote those articles directly. I simply located them and read them, and then retained the information. I made a statement reagrding something I had read in the past, and I have explained that to you in several posts. Again, if you are interested in locating research, plese feel free to do so. Your time would be much better spent doing a search than arguing about why you are not provided with ready resources. Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime.

Constant demands for links is nothing more than an attempt to circumvent the discussion. If you are intersted in the topic, and feel you need more information, it is incumbent upon you to seek that out.