The Death Penalty

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That's kinda hard in some cases..the OJ Simpson case is a perfect example, for one.

Yeah, it is. That's why a lot of captial murder cases are tried in different counties than the one where the murder happened. But with someone like O.J....he's a public figure. But the attorney's questions to the jurors when they are picking them rule out any bias.
 
Yes, you could have, and opened yorself up for his family to take the same kind of revenge against you. Instead, the state does the killing.

Yeah, I see the same thing too.

Funny, I dont see many murders around the world but this USA? :dunno: (or its jsut my opinion, I guess)
 
The U.S. is very high in its murder rate.

Yep yep.
I personally don't think penalty death is sovled a problem but a such harm thing cause our nature.

(Ps- stupid computer kicked me out so it took me a while until I finally logged in. Sorry abt that >.< dang)
 
But that's my point. Our penal system is intended to punish the behavior of the individual, not dole out justice based on our emotional needs. That isn't to say that I don't empathize with the victims, because I do. And I understand the validity of their feelings. But if we allow emotion to make these decisions, we loose all objectivity. That is why a criminal is tried in front of a judge....an objective party. And why jurors can't know the parties participating in the trial. It would skew their objectivity in making a decision.

This is also true.

I don't know how many posters on the forum noticed my signature. The picture of the woman was my best friend. She was killed by a drunk driver Apr 20th, 2007. The woman who killed her pled no contest tp involuntary manslaughter and was sentenced to 4 yrs in prison. She will be up for parole in a little over 2.5-3 yrs from now.

This wasn't a death penalty case, but it goes to prove your bolded statement. It gulls me that this woman wasn't charged with murder, and will be walking the streets in a few years, but she wasn't and she will be.

In my mind, this woman made the choice to drink, and then, get behind the wheel of her SUV. Then, she killed my friend with that vehicle. A clear-cut case of murder in my mind, but in the state where this took place, she was charged with involuntary manslaughter. I don't understand it.

I know the US has the best penal system in the world, but that still leaves alot to be desired in my mind.
 
This is also true.

I don't know how many posters on the forum noticed my signature. The picture of the woman was my best friend. She was killed by a drunk driver Apr 20th, 2007. The woman who killed her pled no contest tp involuntary manslaughter and was sentenced to 4 yrs in prison. She will be up for parole in a little over 2.5-3 yrs from now.

This wasn't a death penalty case, but it goes to prove your bolded statement. It gulls me that this woman wasn't charged with murder, and will be walking the streets in a few years, but she wasn't and she will be.

In my mind, this woman made the choice to drink, and then, get behind the wheel of her SUV. Then, she killed my friend with that vehicle. A clear-cut case of murder in my mind, but in the state where this took place, she was charged with involuntary manslaughter. I don't understand it.

I know the US has the best penal system in the world, but that still leaves alot to be desired in my mind.

I agree that our penal system has many flaws, and that it sometimes appears that what is very cut and dried doesn't turn out to be so cut and dried in the eyes of the law.

Once again, I am not minimizing your feelings at all regarding the death of your friend. It was a tragedy,and your anger is justified. But the law also looks at not just the end result of something, but of intent as well. That is why, for instance, there are different degrees of murder, and also why the manslaughter charge exists. They look at the woman's intent. Yes, she knowlingly got in the car, while intoxicated, and every reasonable person understands that they risk having an accident and injuring, or worse, killing another human being. That is a given. But the law also looks at another question. Was it her intent, when she got behind the wheel of that car, to have an accident and take another life? When she turned that key, was she thinking, "I am going to drive down the road and pick a victim at random, purposely hit her vehicle, and kill her."? Because she was intoxicated, she is responsible for placing the rest of the drivers on the road at greater risk. By knowlingly placing others at greater risk, she unintentionally caused a death. She has to be held responsible for what she caused. But the forethought of murder wasn't there. Likewise, someone who intentionally plans and carries out the death of another is charged with 1st degree murder because the intent was to purposely take that action that they knew whould result in the death of another. It didn't happen as the result of another action.

If a child climbs up on the counter to get a cookie, knowing that he is not supposed to have the cookie, and in the process, breaks the cookie jar, do we consider when we punish him, that his intent was not to break the cookie jar, but to get the cookie he knew he wasn't supposed to have? We consider that the breaking of the cookie jar was an accident that occurred in the process of trying to do something else. Of course, he still deserves to be punished, because he was breaking a rule. But the breaking of the cookie jar was not a purposeful act on his part.

On the other hand, if a child is angry with his mother for forbidding him to have a cookie, and picks up the cookie jar and smashes it on the floor intentionally, we will punish him quite differently, won't we? Why, because his intent was different. The result was the same, but one act is malicious, and one isn't.

If the cookie jar was a prized family heirloom, the mother is going to feel the same degree of sadness over it's loss, no matter how it was broken. Her emotional reaction will be the same no matter the circumstances. But because she treats her child fairly and humanely, she also looks at intent before meting out the punishment to him. Was his intent to hurt her by breaking somethng that she valued, or was his intent simply to get a cookie, with no thought of causing her pain. We punish accordingly. If we punish accordingly, the child learns that he must think carefully before doing something because of the consequences of his actions that can lead to hurting other people. He learns that he must not act on impulse because very often it causes things to happen that we don't mean to happen. He learns a lesson, and he is taught responsibility for his actions. He is made to pay the price for his actions, but with the understanding that his intent was not malicious, but the responsibility is still his.

If we punish out of proportion to his intent, he learns that he will be severely punished no matter what, so he might as well go ahead and break the cookie jar on purpose, because it doesn't matter that he didn't mean to. He learns to behave recklessly without thinking of the consequences of his behavior. How his behavior might impact others doesn't matter to him, because the punishment will be the same whether his behavior was intentional or not. We are on our way to raising a sociopath who has no concern for others, and sees the destruction of another as justifiable in getting what he wants.

Again, I am not discounting your feelings at all, and hope you don't think that my caparisons are insensitive regarding your friends death. I am just trying to explain why, if we want punishment to have the intended effect, which is to punish the behavior while teaching a lesson so that the behavior will not recurr, we have to consider intent when we decide what punishment is appropriate. Innaproriate, I think we can all agree, is for the angry mother to go into the child's room an dbreak his favorite toy so that he will experience the same sense of loss as she did when the cookie jar was broken. Such an action might relieve her anger for the moment, but creates even greater problems for the future, and teaches the child that revenge is perfectly acceptable.

I also have to say that I admire you, having experienced what you have in your life, for being able to engage in an intelligent and thoughtful discourse on this topic, and to see the flaws of the justice system despite your pain.
 
I don't know that movie, but I'll have to see if I can find it. I was just making up a "what if" situation.

wow what a coincidence because your description is almost prefect to the title of movie, I saw at few years ago.

Yes I would recommend you to rent the DVD or VHS to watch it... Very, very, sad and emotion story... It´s true story.
 
OB, I´m very sorry about the loss of your beloved Grandfather and also your best friend. Yes I can understand how you feeling over Justice system. It´s really very sad. Yes I agree with you that it won´t bring your beloved one back.


If the person admits to killing your grandfather and shows no remorse, you still wouldn't want justice for your grandfather? Knowing that you will never see him again, go fishing with him, listening to him tell stories, etc, etc.

As for my situation, my daughter was only 6 and I will never be able to watch her grow up or give her away at her wedding, etc, etc. She was and is my only child and I can't have children anymore due to a health situation. So...I want justice done for her.

I want her killer....executed.

I am very, sorry about your loss of your precious daughter. :(

Yes I can understand your anger and what you feeling is normal but you know that every murderers do have the parents and families. You can image how reaction, the parents or families are after learn that their son or daughter or husband/wife is a murderer. You lost your daughter to a Killer and they also lost their son or daughter/husband or wife to death penalty if you want your daughter´s killer to executed. You and the killer´s parents have the same feeling.

I would consider it as a revenage if you want to have justice to excute him/her. It´s their decision if they want to contact their son/daughter or not if the court decided to lock him/her to life sentence with the help from juries´s vote.

You can try to understand the picture when you are killer´s parent. That´s why I don´t support death penalty because it would make murder victim´s families suffering... like what OB described in her post. Victim´s families would receive more suffering from killer´s families... it create more and more problem...

I am trying to say there´s a big difference between forgiveness and justice. Forgiveness is the only thing is allow you to live a life free of pain. If you can´t let it go, it would keeps you suffering rest of your life. I am not saying that a killer should not deserve his punishment but he do DESERVE his right punishment for what he/she did to innoncent victim.

I do not agree to sentence crimes to death because it´s person who commit crime and get punishment, not punish their parents for take their son/daughter´s life away to death penalty because killer´s parents or families do not deserve to being blame, too. It´s person itself who commit crime deserve his/her punishment, not us parents.
 
Yep yep.
I personally don't think penalty death is sovled a problem but a such harm thing cause our nature.

(Ps- stupid computer kicked me out so it took me a while until I finally logged in. Sorry abt that >.< dang)

Yes death penalty does not reduce the crimes but create more problems.
 
Yes, you could have, and opened yorself up for his family to take the same kind of revenge against you. Instead, the state does the killing.

Yes, accord the link of murder victim´s families venting against death penalty.

Would Justice system ignore or fulfill murder victim´s families´s wish for not sentence killer to death?
 
How does it create more problems? I'm curious.

Check my several links in my previous posts and also my previous posts as well.

You can type those word when you visit google then it will tell you.
 
Check my several links in my previous posts and also my previous posts as well.

You can type those word when you visit google then it will tell you.

Ok :ty: but I would have to disagree, I believe it does not create more problems, in fact I believe it reduces crime.
 
It has not been shown to reduce crime at all.
It prevent repeated offenders being free out on the streets, and prevent crime in prison as well, how many times have you seen inmates been murdered in prison in the hands of another inmate?
 
Facts

There are many reasons the death penalty should be abolished. It is a complex issue and it is difficult to point to any single fact or argument as the most important. Below are ten reasons that the state of California should repeal the death penalty.

1) Executions are carried out at staggering cost to taxpayers.
It costs far more to execute a person than to keep him or her in prison for life. A recent New Jersey Policy Perspectives report concluded that the state's death penalty has cost taxpayers $253 million since 1983, a figure that is over and above the costs that would have been incurred had the state utilized a sentence of life without parole instead of death. "From a strictly financial perspective, it is hard to reach a conclusion other than this: New Jersey taxpayers over the last 23 years have paid more than a quarter billion dollars on a capital punishment system that has executed no one," the report concluded. Michael Murphy, former Morris County, NJ prosecutor, remarked: "If you were to ask me how $11 million a year could best protect the people of New Jersey, I would tell you by giving the law enforcement community more resources. I'm not interested in hypotheticals or abstractions, I want the tools for law enforcement to do their job, and $11 million can buy a lot of tools."



2) There is no credible evidence that capital punishment deters crime.
Scientific studies have consistently failed to demonstrate that executions deter people from committing crime anymore than long prison sentences. Moreover, states without the death penalty have much lower murder rates. The South accounts for 80% of US executions and has the highest regional murder rate.



3) Innocent people have been executed.
The wrongful execution of an innocent person is an injustice that can never be rectified. Since the reinstatement of the death penalty, 126 men and women have been released from Death Row nationally....some only minutes away from execution. Moreover, in the past two years evidence has come to light which indicates that four men may have been wrongfully EXECEUTED in recent years for crimes they did not commit. This error rate is simply appalling, and completely unacceptable, when we are talking about life and death.

Liebling: :cold:


4) Race plays a role in determining who lives and who dies.

The race of the victim and the race of the defendant in capital cases are major factors in determining who is sentenced to die in this country. In 1990 a report from the General Accounting Office concluded that "in 82 percent of the studies [reviewed], race of the victim was found to influence the likelihood of being charged with capital murder or receiving the death penalty, i.e. those who murdered whites were more likely to be sentenced to death than those who murdered blacks."



5) The death penalty is applied at random.
Politics, quality of legal counsel and the jurisdiction where a crime is committed are more often the determining factors in a death penalty case than the facts of the crime itself. The death penalty is a lethal lottery: of the 22,000 homicides committed every year aproximately 150 people are sentenced to death.



6) Capital punishment goes against almost every religion.
Although isolated passages of religious scripture have been quoted in support of the death penalty, almost all religious groups in the United States regard executions as immoral.



7) The USA is keeping company with notorious human rights abusers.
The vast majority of countries in Western Europe, North America and South America — more than 135 nations worldwide — have abandoned capital punishment in law or in practice. The United States remains in the same company as Iraq, Iran and China as one of the major advocates and users of capital punishment.


8) Millions currently spent on the death penalty could be used to assist the families of murder victims.
Many family members who have lost love ones to murder feel that the death penalty will not heal their wounds nor will it end their pain; the extended process prior to executions can prolong the agony experienced by the family. Funds now being used for the costly process of executions could be used to help families put their lives back together through counseling, restitution, crime victim hotlines, and other services addressing their needs.


9) Bad Lawyers are a Persistent Problem in Capital Cases
Perhaps the most important factor in determining whether a defendant will receive the death penalty is the quality of the representation he or she is provided. Almost all defendants in capital cases cannot afford their own attorneys. In many cases, the appointed attorneys are overworked, underpaid, or lacking the trial experience required for death penalty cases. There have even been instances in which lawyers appointed to a death case were so inexperienced that they were completely unprepared for the sentencing phase of the trial. Other appointed attorneys have slept through parts of the trial, or arrived at the court under the influence of alcohol.


10) Life Without Parole is a Sensible Alternative to the Death Penalty
In every state that retains the death penalty, jurors have the option of sentencing convicted capital murderers to life in prison without the possibility of parole. The sentence is cheaper to tax-payers and keeps violent offenders off the streets for good. Unlike the death penalty, a sentence of Life Without Parole also allows mistakes to be corrected. There are currently over 3,300 people in California who have received this alternative sentence, which also has a more limited appeals process. According to the California Governor's Office, only seven people sentenced to life without parole have been released since the state provided for this option in 1977, and this occurred because they were able to prove their innocence.

Death Penalty : Facts
 
It prevent repeated offenders being free out on the streets, and prevent crime in prison as well, how many times have you seen inmates been murdered in prison in the hands of another inmate?

Murderers that are eligble for the death penalty are rarely released back into society.

If we are concerned about recidivism, the only way to prevent it is to rehabilitate. The greatest proportion of inmates that return to criminal behavior after release are those convicted of non-violent crimes.
 
I agree that our penal system has many flaws, and that it sometimes appears that what is very cut and dried doesn't turn out to be so cut and dried in the eyes of the law.

Once again, I am not minimizing your feelings at all regarding the death of your friend. It was a tragedy,and your anger is justified. But the law also looks at not just the end result of something, but of intent as well. That is why, for instance, there are different degrees of murder, and also why the manslaughter charge exists. They look at the woman's intent. Yes, she knowlingly got in the car, while intoxicated, and every reasonable person understands that they risk having an accident and injuring, or worse, killing another human being. That is a given. But the law also looks at another question. Was it her intent, when she got behind the wheel of that car, to have an accident and take another life? When she turned that key, was she thinking, "I am going to drive down the road and pick a victim at random, purposely hit her vehicle, and kill her."? Because she was intoxicated, she is responsible for placing the rest of the drivers on the road at greater risk. By knowlingly placing others at greater risk, she unintentionally caused a death. She has to be held responsible for what she caused. But the forethought of murder wasn't there. Likewise, someone who intentionally plans and carries out the death of another is charged with 1st degree murder because the intent was to purposely take that action that they knew whould result in the death of another. It didn't happen as the result of another action.

If a child climbs up on the counter to get a cookie, knowing that he is not supposed to have the cookie, and in the process, breaks the cookie jar, do we consider when we punish him, that his intent was not to break the cookie jar, but to get the cookie he knew he wasn't supposed to have? We consider that the breaking of the cookie jar was an accident that occurred in the process of trying to do something else. Of course, he still deserves to be punished, because he was breaking a rule. But the breaking of the cookie jar was not a purposeful act on his part.

On the other hand, if a child is angry with his mother for forbidding him to have a cookie, and picks up the cookie jar and smashes it on the floor intentionally, we will punish him quite differently, won't we? Why, because his intent was different. The result was the same, but one act is malicious, and one isn't.

If the cookie jar was a prized family heirloom, the mother is going to feel the same degree of sadness over it's loss, no matter how it was broken. Her emotional reaction will be the same no matter the circumstances. But because she treats her child fairly and humanely, she also looks at intent before meting out the punishment to him. Was his intent to hurt her by breaking somethng that she valued, or was his intent simply to get a cookie, with no thought of causing her pain. We punish accordingly. If we punish accordingly, the child learns that he must think carefully before doing something because of the consequences of his actions that can lead to hurting other people. He learns that he must not act on impulse because very often it causes things to happen that we don't mean to happen. He learns a lesson, and he is taught responsibility for his actions. He is made to pay the price for his actions, but with the understanding that his intent was not malicious, but the responsibility is still his.

If we punish out of proportion to his intent, he learns that he will be severely punished no matter what, so he might as well go ahead and break the cookie jar on purpose, because it doesn't matter that he didn't mean to. He learns to behave recklessly without thinking of the consequences of his behavior. How his behavior might impact others doesn't matter to him, because the punishment will be the same whether his behavior was intentional or not. We are on our way to raising a sociopath who has no concern for others, and sees the destruction of another as justifiable in getting what he wants.

Again, I am not discounting your feelings at all, and hope you don't think that my caparisons are insensitive regarding your friends death. I am just trying to explain why, if we want punishment to have the intended effect, which is to punish the behavior while teaching a lesson so that the behavior will not recurr, we have to consider intent when we decide what punishment is appropriate. Innaproriate, I think we can all agree, is for the angry mother to go into the child's room an dbreak his favorite toy so that he will experience the same sense of loss as she did when the cookie jar was broken. Such an action might relieve her anger for the moment, but creates even greater problems for the future, and teaches the child that revenge is perfectly acceptable.

I also have to say that I admire you, having experienced what you have in your life, for being able to engage in an intelligent and thoughtful discourse on this topic, and to see the flaws of the justice system despite your pain.

Thank you for taking the time to explain this to me in a empathetic way. I appreciate it, Jillio. :)

I won't try to bullshit you or anyone else, I'm angry. I wish my friend's killer had gotten more time than she did, but to be honest, I don't have enough energy to waste thinking about the killer. I just hope that she uses the time given her to reflect on what happened. I also want her to change her life, so that she doesn't hurt or kill anyone else.

It has been exactly one year since this happened, and it still is very painful for me.

I know I veered off the topic of the death penalty, and for that, I apologize. But, I think we need to realize that the whole system is flawed and changes need to be made. As I said, I think we have one of the best penal systems in the world, but we need to fix what it is broken. It is my hope that someone will have the guts it would take to do that.
 
I experienced in real life situation at over 10 years ago. I met a friend *B* at Sunshinelady´s birthday party for a first time at 2 years ago after years no see...

*B* & I were pregnant with our 2nd child on one month difference. I had Alan one month before she had a girl *Al*. We met at mother & child club every week. We watch our children grow up... *B* had a child from her previous relationship and married to a man *A* whom it´s her 2nd child and *A*´s first child.

Everything goes normal for over 2 years until scandal... I was faint with a big shock and cried sooo hard after learn from a newspaper that *Al* was murdered by her own father. I don´t want to beleive it because I know *A* is a wonderful father and thought a newspaper is lie...

But the truth come... It´s long story so I make a short story.

They had big fights. *A* cut his wife *B*´s throat and throw their daughter *Al* out of 10th floor block appartment window. After that *A* don´t know what matter with him...

*B* & *Al* were rushed to hosptail to fight for their life. *B* survived and her 2 years old daughter *Al* died.

In the begin, we were very angry with *A* for what and how he did to his wife and daughter. We talked negative about him etc. etc. until court.... We saw both sides... and no bitter in us anymore but learn to forgive him ... He deserved his punishment because it´s about innoncent child... I asked to myself Why... why... why... she has to die... Court sentenced him 14 years... due reason is his past criminal - clean... never trouble with law, withnesses, employer, etc. etc. etc.

It took *B* time to cope her pain and grieving... and learn to forgive... but she can´t forget... We gave her loving support... She wrote a letter to talk her feeling... She cope it well and decided to leave area for other area which over 400 km away to start a new life... That´s last we saw her when Alan was 3 years old until we met her for a first time at Sunshinelady´s birthday party at 2 years ago. She is happily re-married and have twins. She saw me and remind her of Al because Al is the same age as my son Alan. She accepted and move on... of course talked about Al to us.

We heard that *A* came out of prison at 2 years ago. It´s less years than 14 years due his good behavior... He learn how to control his temper, therapy, etc. in prison. He taught many prisoners how to sign language... He started to learn draw which he does never... He draw and draw a lot and write his feeling for his daughter because he know which favorite, his daughter had... It makes him good person but he accepted the fact that he have to live with his horrible mistake rest of his life. He got nightmare... Everyone welcome him and forgave him... and move on...

She told us that she got a letter from court informed her that her ex *A* came out of prison... that´s all.

It´s about forgive to free of pain and bitter... *B* is able to start a new life... without forgive, she would never start a new life... would never married and have twins.
 
Right. Do you remember the movie, "A Time to Kill" where 10-year-old girl named Tonya was violently rape and beaten, and her father killed the two guys who did this to his daughter? He did it out of revenge, it's not that I blamed him, because I don't, he just didn't want those two men to walk out free, and you don't either, nobody does.

Yes, I own the DVD "A Time to Kill". It´s very, very sad and emotion movie. I would say it´s racist...

He was supposed to sentence to death. His lawyer fought to not put him death penalty but stay in prison for long years... maybe life sentence... ? Lawyer convinced juries to give him free...

Very sad movie...

After those movie, we wonder to ourselves... It makes no sense when (IF) they (justice) put victim´s Dad long life sentence or death penalty because Justice did the same thing is KILL HUMAN...
 
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