Start with spoken language or ASL?

[sirena rossa]

You people are basing a lot things on researched facts.

To be honest, I don't need to research anything about the deaf, sign languages, and spoken languages when I already know what I have went through.

4 years of speech thearpy has given me the ability to speak. And I can speak perfectly fine also I can lipread 100% and I don't misunderstand.

I was exposed to ASL when I went to a local deaf camp. I was 7 years old, but comparing their level of sign language, it was extremely low because they didn't understand what I was saying, simply because I was signing SEE. Now you see what I'm trying to explain, the kids who was raised with ASL only cannot understand MY english when I am solid in SEE. Now do you see what lies here? SEE and ASL doesn't usually come together in those lives of the deaf children, why? Parents. There are a lot parents out there that are restricting their own child to ONE language because they only know one language.

jillio and shel, it's obvious that you both know not only one languages but mulitple. Great posts you girls did on this thread, I was shocked how this turned out. Also, why lock when we are actually learning? I learned a lot, because I have met different deaf people with no knowledge, simply because they lead different lives than we do.

SEE is not to be viewed as a weak subject. I was raised with SEE and I think it's much more powerful than ASL, why, and how, because in this world, if you learn how to speak, you'd be able to communicate with basically everyone, but then if you didn't, you'd be limiting yourself to several people. I wouldn't allow myself be limited, nor shall you or your kids. SEE can give ideas of what ASL would be like because it is signing exact english which doesn't have the ASL "structure" but the signs are the same, the concept are still the same. If a person who knows only ASL doesn't understand SEE or English, it's clear that person is limited. Or shall I say, dumb.

Shel- being offended is part of life, it's the reactions that matters the most, you being offended and telling people, aka "bitching at people" about it is not mature. In fact, it is insulting that you are taking it in different ways when we meant in other ways. So suck it up and make your opinion stronger.



I truly enjoyed this, I hope there'll be more threads like this.

imdeafsowhat, i totally applaud ur statements! (esp. whats bolded) and i agree with a lot of what u said, it reflects my own opinion as well. I don't think this thread should be locked either because we all ARE learning different things here. I am new to this forum and the main reason why i joined was cuz i don't really know many deaf people (except for one my best friends who was raised 100% oral like me, mainstream, etc.) And i wanted to see the flipside of the coin. AND to show others MY p.o.v. on topics. everyone's lives and experiences are different. I didn't even really know for sure what SEE was till this forum. As of now, it seems like SEE is more versatile and probably gives a deaf child a better understanding of what the spoken English language is like. Which sounds like a much better option to have the child learn.

Regarding the topic of starting with spoken language vs. ASL, this is my own personal view: I think that if u start with teaching the child ASL only, then it becomes a crutch. Then when u go to teach the child speech, it will only be more difficult for them to comprehend because they already know ASL and its easier, so pffft why bother learning the more challenging one? thus the child becomes pretty limited in means of communication with everyone. Now, if u start with spoken language - the more challenging option. It will be easier to learn (assuming the child has the capability cuz i do realize that in some cases the actual degree of the hearing loss is a huge factor) and THEN learn ASL or SEE. then the child won't be limited AND will have a much better understanding of what speech is like than if s/he started off with just ASL. And I know quite a few speech therapists who will agree with me on that.

 

[rockdrummer]

If you know how to do it, RD, then go about doing it and stop demanding that others do the work for you. Its very simple. If you want the research, go after it.

And you are inserting your own interpretation into my statements again. Please stop doing that.

I am not demanding anthing but simply requesting that you provide a citing and source to any claims you make regarding research. A reasonable request. I have inserted nothing into your statements and am only stating my impression based on your comments and the path you are taking this down. We obviouisly disagree on when citings and sources should be provided. Now can we move on.

 

[imdeafsowhat]

I am not demanding anthing but simply requesting that you provide a citing and source to any claims you make regarding research. A reasonable request. I have inserted nothing into your statements and am only stating my impression based on your comments and the path you are taking this down. We obviouisly disagree on when citings and sources should be provided. Now can we move on.

Don't let the fire dim! Keep it burning!

 

[jillio]

I am not demanding anthing but simply requesting that you provide a citing and source to any claims you make regarding research. A reasonable request. I have inserted nothing into your statements and am only stating my impression based on your comments and the path you are taking this down. We obviouisly disagree on when citings and sources should be provided. Now can we move on.

Then please show me in which post I used the word "idiot."

Yes, we do disagree. I use the accepted and standard requirements of the APA. Which ones are you using?

 

[rockdrummer]

Don't let the fire dim! Keep it burning!

At least that made me laugh... Thanks!

 

[rockdrummer]

Then please show me in which post I used the word "idiot.".....

Yes, we do disagree. I use the accepted and standard requirements of the APA. Which ones are you using?

I will as soon as you show me in which post I said you used the word idiot. APA requirements?? We are not talking about writing research papers. We are talking about providing sources to claims of research papers. So much for letting it go.

 

[imdeafsowhat]

Sirena, Thank you for reading my post, I didn't think one would have the potential to read my post, hahaha.

I can see where you're coming from. But then remember this, after learning a language, it sometimes is hard to learn another because of the mind of child can be very surprising. Like Autism, ADHD, and Learning Disability. They are much more challenging than a deaf child, I know because I've worked with them for many years as a mentor. It wasn't pretty when I first met them, they refused to talk, play, and was extremely uncomfortable, but then when I sat down and showed them that I'm deaf and told them that we weren't any different. They eventually opened themselves up to me, started to talk, not in voices, but in sign language and guess what signs. SEE. Because it is easier for them to understand a lot of things that surrounds them. Beside, I don't think Spanish language will take over, someone mentioned that, that person is being gay and irrational.

As for the kids with mulitple disorders, it is best to use SEE because it signs each word and if that child sign ONE word, very simple, like drink. BOOM, everyone's shocked because of it's development. You see, it truly depends on individuals. You can't really base those crap on statistics, researched facts, thearpies and your own life. You have to broaden your view to not only deaf, but other disablities. In my theory, being deaf, we have it much easier than those with major disablities.

Again, the quote stands!
"It all depends on individuals for each of us are unique."

 

[jillio]

I will as soon as you show me in which post I said you used the word idiot. APA requirements?? We are not talking about writing research papers. We are talking about providing sources to claims of research papers. So much for letting it go.

Post # 320.

And I know what we are talking about. Again, I use the APA standards for providing citations. They are not related to writing a research paper.

 

[sirena rossa]

I would like to point out a flaw with using facts and the "majority's outcomes/results/statistics/whatever" (keyword here is Majority...).
if EVERY doctor or therapist went by the majority and used that as a basis on what to do with a deaf child... we would all be screwed. A perfect example of this would be the story of me:
when it was discovered that i was deaf (i was 1 yr. old) my parents took me to several doctors and they all said the same things - "she will never speak. u will have to teach her ASL. she will never go past a 3rd grade level." well, thank sweet baby jesus that my parents would have none of that! this infuriated them and they ignored those doctors until they found one who said I had a chance of learning to speak and that it should be tried. and hey what do ya know! it worked!
Granted this was in 1980, a time where technology wasn't as advanced and we didnt have all the info we do today, But my point is: a lot of those docs were going by FACTS and the MAJORITY of what they saw in deaf people. Luckily for myself, there was a "radical" group of docs and therapists out there who wanted to challenge these facts and the system. Because without them and my awesome parents, I wouldn't be where I am today.

 

[imdeafsowhat]

Post # 320.

And I know what we are talking about. Again, I use the APA standards for providing citations. They are not related to writing a research paper.

I never research, why, I'm scared that I might go to court for palagarisming and breaking the copyright, so I just use my own Wolf to tell me what's up.

 

[rockdrummer]

Post # 320.

And I know what we are talking about. Again, I use the APA standards for providing citations. They are not related to writing a research paper.

Post #320??? doesn't say that you used the word idiot.

 

[jillio]

I would like to point out a flaw with using facts and the "majority's outcomes/results/statistics/whatever" (keyword here is Majority...).
if EVERY doctor or therapist went by the majority and used that as a basis on what to do with a deaf child... we would all be screwed. A perfect example of this would be the story of me:
when it was discovered that i was deaf (i was 1 yr. old) my parents took me to several doctors and they all said the same things - "she will never speak. u will have to teach her ASL. she will never go past a 3rd grade level." well, thank sweet baby jesus that my parents would have none of that! this infuriated them and they ignored those doctors until they found one who said I had a chance of learning to speak and that it should be tried. and hey what do ya know! it worked!
Granted this was in 1980, a time where technology wasn't as advanced and we didnt have all the info we do today, But my point is: a lot of those docs were going by FACTS and the MAJORITY of what they saw in deaf people. Luckily for myself, there was a "radical" group of docs and therapists out there who wanted to challenge these facts and the system. Because without them and my awesome parents, I wouldn't be where I am today.

Then exactly hopw would you propose that policy be set. By what is effective for one? Or by what has been shown to be effective for the majority? Policy has to be in place. Otherwise, one is operating without a foundational support in theory or practice.

If you went to the doctor, and he diagnosed you with cancer, would you wnat to receive the treatment that has been shown effective for the majority that have had that same type of cancer, or would you want the treatment that worked for 1 out of 100,000. Keep in mind, those other 99,999 would have died, because the treatment was not effective for the majority.

 

[jillio]

Post #320??? doesn't say that you used the word idiot.

No, you assumed that was what I was thinking, and your post states as much. That is my whole point. Stop interjecting your interpretation onto my words. Unless I called you an idiot, which I didn't, you cannot assume that I was thinking that you were an idiot.

 

[imdeafsowhat]

I love you.

Anything can happen, just don't deny it. YOU LOVE ME. Hahahaha.


But RD, she didn't call you an idiot, but me. I was the one who was called an idiot for not researching anything and guessing a lot of things, haha.

 

[AlleyCat]

I learned ASL first -- started at about 1 1/2 years old. Speech followed shortly thereafter. I continued with 15 years of speech therapy. I still have a deaf accent but it gets better all the time. Anyhow, I was very much a loner when growing up so all my spare time went into reading books. I was reading college-level books by age 10-12 or so .. I think all the reading I did is what has made my vocabulary and English be what it is today. So, I'm not sure how much of my English is attributed to learning sign first and developing good speech skills after, versus all the reading I did.

 

[Jiro]

I would like to point out a flaw with using facts and the "majority's outcomes/results/statistics/whatever" (keyword here is Majority...).
if EVERY doctor or therapist went by the majority and used that as a basis on what to do with a deaf child... we would all be screwed. A perfect example of this would be the story of me:
when it was discovered that i was deaf (i was 1 yr. old) my parents took me to several doctors and they all said the same things - "she will never speak. u will have to teach her ASL. she will never go past a 3rd grade level." well, thank sweet baby jesus that my parents would have none of that! this infuriated them and they ignored those doctors until they found one who said I had a chance of learning to speak and that it should be tried. and hey what do ya know! it worked!
Granted this was in 1980, a time where technology wasn't as advanced and we didnt have all the info we do today, But my point is: a lot of those docs were going by FACTS and the MAJORITY of what they saw in deaf people. Luckily for myself, there was a "radical" group of docs and therapists out there who wanted to challenge these facts and the system. Because without them and my awesome parents, I wouldn't be where I am today.

well your parents were probably consulting with the wrong kind of doctors. They should be consulting with specialists or doctors who know this field extremely well. That's why my parents did their homework well and flew down to NYC from Korea to consult with well-established, highly-reputable deaf institution in the world. This was in 1980's too. The specialist gave my parents a huge background in deaf life and some ideas what to expect of raising a deaf child. She gave my parents a few options on how to proceed - learn ASL and stay on deaf mainstream.... or get CI... or learn oralism (since I do have a good hearing via HA).... My parents picked the 3rd option.

that's why my parents dropped everything and moved to NYC, leaving behind their relatives, their life, etc. My dad asked for a transfer to his company's NYC branch. My mom sacrificed her art career to be a full-time mom for my brother and me to stick with intensive training everyday. Once a week is laughable. But I have to tell you - this was a very difficult journey. I was on hearing mainstream all my life and it was no easy task. My mom had to tutored me and repeated everything what I had learned from schools.

I think ASL should be taught first with inclusion of oralism as secondary language. and I think I should have been at deaf school. That would make my life easier. Oh well... at least I know better now

 

[imdeafsowhat]

well your parents were probably consulting with the wrong kind of doctors. They should be consulting with specialists or doctors who know this field extremely well. That's why my parents did their homework well and flew down to NYC from Korea to consult with well-established, highly-reputable deaf institution in the world. This was in 1980's too. The specialist gave my parents a huge background in deaf life and some ideas what to expect of raising a deaf child. She gave my parents a few options on how to proceed - learn ASL and stay on deaf mainstream.... or get CI... or learn oralism (since I do have a good hearing via HA).... My parents picked the 3rd option.

that's why my parents dropped everything and moved to NYC, leaving behind their relatives, their life, etc. My dad asked for a transfer to his company's NYC branch. My mom sacrificed her art career to be a full-time mom for my brother and me to stick with intensive training everyday. Once a week is laughable. But I have to tell you - this was a very difficult journey. I was on hearing mainstream all my life and it was no easy task. My mom has to tutored me and repeat everything what I had learned from schools.

I think ASL should be taught first with inclusion of oralism as secondary. That would make my life easier. Oh well... at least I know better now

Regrets. Tsk tsk. That is bad.

Live without regrets. Do it. I dare you.

 

[sirena rossa]

Sirena, Thank you for reading my post, I didn't think one would have the potential to read my post, hahaha.

I can see where you're coming from. But then remember this, after learning a language, it sometimes is hard to learn another because of the mind of child can be very surprising. Like Autism, ADHD, and Learning Disability. They are much more challenging than a deaf child, I know because I've worked with them for many years as a mentor. It wasn't pretty when I first met them, they refused to talk, play, and was extremely uncomfortable, but then when I sat down and showed them that I'm deaf and told them that we weren't any different. They eventually opened themselves up to me, started to talk, not in voices, but in sign language and guess what signs. SEE. Because it is easier for them to understand a lot of things that surrounds them. Beside, I don't think Spanish language will take over, someone mentioned that, that person is being gay and irrational.

As for the kids with mulitple disorders, it is best to use SEE because it signs each word and if that child sign ONE word, very simple, like drink. BOOM, everyone's shocked because of it's development. You see, it truly depends on individuals. You can't really base those crap on statistics, researched facts, thearpies and your own life. You have to broaden your view to not only deaf, but other disablities. In my theory, being deaf, we have it much easier than those with major disablities.

Again, the quote stands!
"It all depends on individuals for each of us are unique."

imdeafsowhat, i'm a fan of ur posts, hahaha.
Thanks for pointing that out, about the learning a 2nd language. it IS indeed harder to learn a 2nd language, i absolutely agree with that. it was hard for me to pick up Spanish. but that is exactly why, in my opinion & experience, its better to do spoken language first (assuming the kid has capability) and THEN learn ASL.
u know, u reminded me of the time i did volunteer work at a deaf school. i had similar experiences, it really was very uncomfortable because some wouldn't talk to me. but after a while, and when they saw i was deaf too, some kids really took a liking to me. but i did observe some children with horrendous communications skills, that was sad to see. I also saw some kids who had excellent oral skills (most of those kids had a CI, i think). it also has a lot to do w/ the parents. mine worked HARD with me, they were constantly doing therapy with me, but it wasn't therapy, per se. it could be something so simple as like drawing pictures with me or reading a book to me.

i agree with u tho, it is a very individual thing and that's why the CONSTANT citing of facts irritates me. Citing "we should do XYZ because THIS source says so and so"

 

[imdeafsowhat]

imdeafsowhat, i'm a fan of ur posts, hahaha.
Thanks for pointing that out, about the learning a 2nd language. it IS indeed harder to learn a 2nd language, i absolutely agree with that. it was hard for me to pick up Spanish. but that is exactly why, in my opinion & experience, its better to do spoken language first (assuming the kid has capability) and THEN learn ASL.
u know, u reminded me of the time i did volunteer work at a deaf school. i had similar experiences, it really was very uncomfortable because some wouldn't talk to me. but after a while, and when they saw i was deaf too, some kids really took a liking to me. but i did observe some children with horrendous communications skills, that was sad to see. I also saw some kids who had excellent oral skills (most of those kids had a CI, i think). it also has a lot to do w/ the parents. mine worked HARD with me, they were constantly doing therapy with me, but it wasn't therapy, per se. it could be something so simple as like drawing pictures with me or reading a book to me.

i agree with u tho, it is a very individual thing and that's why the CONSTANT citing of facts irritates me. Citing "we should do XYZ because THIS source says so and so"

The Wolf agrees and rests. But more will come, I just quoted jillio, waiting to see her reaction, I sure hope it's full of LOVE. WEE!

 

[rockdrummer]

Then please show me in which post I used the word "idiot."

I will as soon as you show me in which post I said you used the word idiot.

Post # 320.

Post #320??? doesn't say that you used the word idiot.

No, you assumed that was what I was thinking, and your post states as much. That is my whole point. Stop interjecting your interpretation onto my words. Unless I called you an idiot, which I didn't, you cannot assume that I was thinking that you were an idiot.

So you admit that I never said you used the word idiot as you claimed. Now you tell me that I can't make assumptions. Sorry but the last time I checked I have freewill and control of my own mind. I can and will make assumptions. If you disagree then by all means correct me but don't accuse me of something I didn't do. Interjecting my interpretation onto your words?? Really?? What does that even mean? Onto your words???? Really?? Maybe I am an idiot.